Honestly, take that away from a Sister and what are you left with? Girl from next door in powered armour?

It's intresting question as it is. What is "zealous"? Should you have celibacy, for example, to be zealous? Can zealous, pious man (or woman) fall from grace and even don't notice it? What are you left with when you take that away from a Sister? Take that away as it seems, not "it was never here".

What will happen if Repentia sisterhood is not an option for a while (maybe you're in the middle of crusade? or stranded?), and nobody here to point you your mistakes?

And what will happen if you're sincerely believe you ARE pure, so you haven't lose your ability to make Acts of Faith? It's about conviction and faith, not some external assessment.

It's intresting. Maybe I'll make an adventure about it.

Ephrael Stern

Wait. Are we speaking about that Ephrael Stern who is Thrice-Born and the Daemonifuge? Who was attacked by daemon-controlled Sister while she was in holding cell?

Either way, to date, the Tempestus codex probably features the most detailed account of how Schola Progenium education looks like, and what exactly happens at its end.

And you're **** right I believe. But Tempestus codex I read definitly differ from what I read.

In my book there is " Within the training camps, most join the ranks of the Militarum Tempestus or Officio Perfectus whilst some daughters may be chosen to serve in the Adepta Sororitas". There is direct note there that drill abbots constantly asses and reasses who will be good Commissar, who are going into Tempestus Scion and who will going into Adeptus Terra. There is separate section about Trials of Compliance that is happen with progeny, and it's programm differ by who is that progeny going to became (future stormtroopers can have their live-shooting action, and Commissars supposed to shoot one of fellow progeny).

Are we looking into same book?

I've been on enough school trips to know that it isn't that hard to see the real people behind the teacher's public face the longer you stick with them in such an environment.

Because you should not portray such an obvious exception from the very theme of a faction without explaining the background, else you leave people wondering and second-guessing (like I do here).

So do I; but I believe Cain's Last Stand have bad narrative. It's not bad interpretation for Warhammer 40K setting for me, just bad book. Not very bad, not the worst I read about Wh40K (that first book about Gaunt have my own award for that, tbh) but bad. That's not a book I thought when I asked my question, I should admit, but let it be.

Every author have his good and his bad books, I believe.

However, I'd say the author made it clear that Julien is not actually an exception, with the annotation by Inquisitor Vail who is obviously not surprised to hear of this behaviour, and even explains that there are supposedly no rules against it.

But she is.

Vail says directly " although few find the time to take advantage of the fact." Yes, Vail don't like Sisterhood (by her own well-known reasons linked with Shadowlight and "Duty Calls" events), she have a habit to make her personal adds to that comments (sometimes it's definitly jokes).

"Well, you know, the only reason we don't sleep with all the men or women we like is because we're pretty busy most of the time!"

I'm sorry, but you can see a joke here, can't you? You even put a smile!

Yes, Sister of Battle is very, very busy - killing witches, hunting xenos, praying, dedicating her life for the Emperor, moving between Repentia and her order (yes, I know, it's kind of rare), praying again and so on. But is there some direct tenet forbid Sister to sleep with men (or woman) she like? Well... not exactly. At least that's what Vael says.

Let me once more put an example about soviet censorship (I can use another examples if you want - that's just something I know good because that's my area of expertise). You don't need to write in some book for censor "and there should not be any notices for something vicious happens in some mining city - for example about teens killing some homeless". That's just something censor will not let pass by his own understanding.

Yeah, that system wasn't perfect; but if Sororites in general are not Jullien, well. They're astonishing then, real life don't know that kind of dedication!

Mitchell's Law: "Once a 40k discussion involves the terms sex and Sororitas, the probability of a user mentioning Cain's Last Stand approaches 1."

Yes, and I will use it to say "Sororite can have sex ONLY if it's very, very special Sororite".

It's possible because, well, she had parts (usually), and Imperium is very, very big, and no Imperial institution is fall-proof (and even using chemicals can't save Scholas Progenum from mutiny!), but it's not something going to happen with every Sororite.

It's intresting question as it is. What is "zealous"? Should you have celibacy, for example, to be zealous? Can zealous, pious man (or woman) fall from grace and even don't notice it? What are you left with when you take that away from a Sister? Take that away as it seems, not "it was never here".

What will happen if Repentia sisterhood is not an option for a while (maybe you're in the middle of crusade? or stranded?), and nobody here to point you your mistakes? And what will happen if you're sincerely believe you ARE pure, so you haven't lose your ability to make Acts of Faith? It's about conviction and faith, not some external assessment.

"Zealous" is a pretty far-reaching term, but in the religious sense, I think it is usually understood to adhere to overly strict adherence to doctrine -- and GW's material on the SoB supports this here. I've provided quotes from the various codices and WD articles earlier, but there are two more examples of Sisterhood rules I could provide from the Liber Sororitas.

And The Vow of Repentance is always an option, since it basically just requires a Sister to lay down her armour and go into exile. Of course, there are alternatives such as harsh physical punishment or execution that could be applied as well, all depending on the situation and the personalities of the Sisters involved (officers judging the penitent, or the penitent judging herself).

Wait. Are we speaking about that Ephrael Stern who is Thrice-Born and the Daemonifuge? Who was attacked by daemon-controlled Sister while she was in holding cell?

The same. Her story is a Black Library publication rather than an in-house product, of course, but Games Workshop did feature a rather interesting article about her background on their website some time ago to promote the comic, back before they reworked everything into being shop-only. You can still access it by using archive.org though.

And you're **** right I believe. But Tempestus codex I read definitly differ from what I read.

In my book there is " Within the training camps, most join the ranks of the Militarum Tempestus or Officio Perfectus whilst some daughters may be chosen to serve in the Adepta Sororitas". There is direct note there that drill abbots constantly asses and reasses who will be good Commissar, who are going into Tempestus Scion and who will going into Adeptus Terra. There is separate section about Trials of Compliance that is happen with progeny, and it's programm differ by who is that progeny going to became (future stormtroopers can have their live-shooting action, and Commissars supposed to shoot one of fellow progeny).

Are we looking into same book?

We are. And we've been over this before. I believe you are mis-interpreting the "joining" part, because your assumption that it means they actually start training there does not make sense with the part where all those who join are immediately shipped off-world to Tempestus training camps.

They join the Storm Troopers/Commissars/Sororitas in the Schola because it is in the Schola that they are selected. And then they are immediately sent off.

Lastly, the Trials of Compliance are no training course, they are trials . A test to see whether a potential future Commissar cadet, Storm Trooper recruit, Sororitas novice, junior Arbites etc really have what it takes.

Am I right supposing you never had military drill camp?

You are not.

You see you can see real people behind the teacher's public face when you stick with them; but you don't by any means STICK WITH THEM in Schola Progenum (or drill camp). They lived separately, you can see them when you're going to class only, and you can never see real person behind a man (or woman). Especially when you have your mind scrubbed and don't even try to see your teacher that way. They are not humans. They are some kind of training equipment, that by all means have their intentions to break you as hard as it's possible.

You will be punished looking at your teachers in SP as at humans I believe.

I don't agree. Most persons' public face will ultimately be affected by who they are privately. Someone like Julien who drinks alcohol, plays games of card and has sexual relationships with other staff members - in short, who transgresses against the "strict and puritan lifestyle" that teachers have as per the codex - is rather likely to treat a Novice who does the same stuff differently than a hardcore by-the-book Sororitas. Unless, like I said earlier, Julien is a very strong hypocrite.

And if the Schola in Cain's novel functions as you assert here, and as it is described in the Tempestus codex, then I don't think it would have produced something like Cain.

But she is. Vail says directly " although few find the time to take advantage of the fact."

By saying that she makes it clear that Julien is no exception in regards to sexual liberty.

She would be an exception in how much free time she has to actually engage in such hobbies, but we are discussing Sororitas mindset and purity here, not their schedule.

I'm sorry, but you can see a joke here, can't you? You even put a smile!

Yes, Sister of Battle is very, very busy - killing witches, hunting xenos, praying, dedicating her life for the Emperor, moving between Repentia and her order (yes, I know, it's kind of rare), praying again and so on. But is there some direct tenet forbid Sister to sleep with men (or woman) she like? Well... not exactly. At least that's what Vael says.

Let me once more put an example about soviet censorship (I can use another examples if you want - that's just something I know good because that's my area of expertise). You don't need to write in some book for censor "and there should not be any notices for something vicious happens in some mining city - for example about teens killing some homeless". That's just something censor will not let pass by his own understanding.

Yeah, that system wasn't perfect; but if Sororites in general are not Jullien, well. They're astonishing then, real life don't know that kind of dedication!

I have no idea how you'd arrive at the conclusion that this is meant as a joke, especially as it now appears you are shifting goal posts to push your defence. First you say that Vail's statement must mean that Julien is special, then you say it was just a joke. What is it, now?

Also, Inquisitors are not subject to censorship. They are the censors!

As for Sororitas dedication, I do think there are examples of such in real life -- but they are usually individuals; hardcore fanatics who stand out even among their peers. What's special about the Sisters is that they are an entire army of Jeanne d'Arcs (one of the obvious inspirations for the Sororitas, if you consider the name of their original homeworld), as a result of their uniform upbringing and indoctrination that starts at infancy, with any deviants quickly brought in line or weeded out as part of their unrelenting devotional regime.

Yes, and I will use it to say "Sororite can have sex ONLY if it's very, very special Sororite".

But that would be incorrect. The quote clearly suggests that the only limitation is their spare time.

And The Vow of Repentance is always an option, since it basically just requires a Sister to lay down her armour and go into exile. Of course, there are alternatives such as harsh physical punishment or execution that could be applied as well, all depending on the situation and the personalities of the Sisters involved (officers judging the penitent, or the penitent judging herself).

But this history definitly says it's possible to have Sister controlled by Daemon. I believed you don't approve it's as a canon, but if you don't what's the problem about controlling Adeptus Sororitas?

I believe you are mis-interpreting the "joining" part, because your assumption that it means they actually start training there does not make sense with the part where all those who join are immediately shipped off-world to Tempestus training camps.

Why? It just means there is three stages, not two: starting Progena stage, specialized Progena stage (Progena supposed to be Commissars, Storm Troopers, Sororitas and so on and having their training modified - will you teach a Storm Trooper to complete Commissar esoteric test? or will you teach future bureucrat to complete Storm Trooper test, that is life-fire actions with strange orders that should be completed by the letter?) that ended by trials, THEN, after trials (book says so) going Selection Day, and going to learn in Perfecto/Tempestus/Sororite training camp.

Selection Day isn't an admission, it's graduation ceremony. At least Militarum Tempestus put it that way. Not that means your education finished, but they definitly have different courses for future Commissars or future Storm Trooper.

And if the Schola in Cain's novel functions as you assert here, and as it is described in the Tempestus codex, then I don't think it would have produced something like Cain.

You are not.

Ahm. How it's opposites?

Jullien is unusual. Cain said that, Vael said that. But Vael is a kind of vile joker (you can remember how did she acting with Cain for example), so she speaks in jokes. She used to joke in comments, and she used to joke in personal interactions. She is a character, so her points is character views. It's character views of very well informed human, of course, but they are personalised.

Vael is vile (well, she IS), so SHE joking such as medeival authors used to joke about catholic nuns. "Hey, is it possible Jeanne d'Arcs wasn't a virgin? nah, she was too busy praying, commanding French troops and killing englishmen". After all at least Vael demeanor is not very pious.

Why, after all, Jullien will have more free time that common Sororite?

Lots of things in that post I can absolutely agree with! However, I wouldn't say your universe (or anyone elses) is 'wrong', at all. I mean, of course we all have our preferred interpretations, and to me, stuff like the Cain novels certainly does feel 'wrong', but at the same time we have to accept that it's really just a matter of taste. The creators of the franchise have explained that this differentiated and highly subjective perception is intended, and whilst I would prefer a more consistent approach ... who am I to argue with them? If the playerbase should accept any canon, then it ought to be these writers' decree that there isn't any.

That being said, I have to oppose the strict segregation between Grimdark and Heroism. You almost make it sound as if it would be impossible to set a book or novel (or an RPG) in Stalingrad without twisting historical facts, and I don't believe this to be true. What matters in such cases is perspective: What are you going to show, and what are you going to omit? The majority of stories we are exposed to are using this simple trick to twist the reader's perception of both the setting and its dramatis personae, without truly contradicting history.

Oh, definitely! That's why I always put 'wrong' in quotations. If I were to go up to some hardcore 40K fans and describe the feel of my campaign, they would tell me I was wrong in many, many aspects. I know because they have. My 'feel' of the universe isn't the same as their 'feel.' And since I'm further away from the codices, I think I would be the one to admit that I was modifying the universe to my own ends. I don't think it's actually wrong, it's just different from some of the established ideas.

And I'm not saying you have to twist historical fact at all, and certainly didn't intend for it to come across that way! I'm saying both bravery and evil were contained within the battle. It's hard to tell a story where the Soviets weren't drowning the Germans in blood to hold the west bank. But most of the character-centered novels aren't going to follow the exploits of the drunken commander, or have a thousand short chapters describing how each soldier in a regiment died in a single charge and artillery shelling. Instead, they tend to pick out the exceptional or the fictional; the sniper who killed five hundred men and lived to tell the tale, or the one good commander surveying the ruins of an entire army, lamenting the waste. They don't tell the story of the average soldier. They tell a human story, in the midst of one of the most inhuman conflicts we've had.

But it always has to be against the backdrop of senseless carnage and uncaring slaughter. Because that's what most of the battle was. The movie Enemy at the Gates was not exactly scholarly, but the opening scenes are a pretty good depiction of what the battle was. "When the man in front dies, pick up his gun and keep moving!" the guy handing out ammo says. Not if, but when.

And depending on who's writing, every Imperial institution, every army, every bloody crusade is that uncaring and senseless. And again, it makes perfect sense for a strategy game - but I don't think it makes sense for the story I want to tell. I read a 40K short story a while ago featuring the Sisters of Battle (can't remember the name of it, sadly) torching a bunch of people because someone in their village was tainted. The first fluff story in Only War is about a unit taken down to a planet and ground away until everyone was dead, the last survivor realizing that there was no hope of anything but death. But that was his duty, so he'd keep going until he was cut down, too.

I can't change what happened at Stalingrad. But I can make "drown them in our blood!" a less standard tactic for the Imperial Guard, in my telling of the 40K universe - and I think it makes for a story that my players will enjoy more.

No, I mean if you don't feel yourself as somebody who need Repentance?

I wouldn't if it had been the only thing that was "odd" about the Sororitas in this book. In that case it would have just been a rather tiring trope, because every 2nd time the Sisters show up in Black Library stories it's as possessed antagonists.

But it's not. It's yet another item on a long list of controversial portrayal.

I have explained this two times now already, by the way.

Why? It just means there is three stages, not two: starting Progena stage, specialized Progena stage (Progena supposed to be Commissars, Storm Troopers, Sororitas and so on and having their training modified - will you teach a Storm Trooper to complete Commissar esoteric test?

Of course. Because this potential future Storm Trooper could still turn into a Commissar, all depending on what is decided during their Trials of Compliance.

It makes sense if the Schola would focus on civic or militant training once it's clear that a progena is more suitable for combat or for studies. However, specialised training dedicated exclusively to the roles of a Commissar etc would be a bit silly, considering that you'd potentially waste years of training if on the very last day it is decided that this cadet would be better off as a Battle Sister or an assassin.

That being said, the Tempestus codex also makes it sound as if the classes, once formed, are not actually broken up again, which would of course be a necessity even for general dedicated civilian and military training courses. I'll have to take another look at the books and see if the Tempestus codex possibly contradicts the 2E SoB one on this subject (and if so which version I'll go with for my personal interpretation), or if perhaps the 2E codex could merely refer to individualised hands-on training as an addition to the class course, as in a Drill Abbot taking a promising student aside to show them some additional tricks.

Why? That system can't even protect progeny from rebelling. Yes, this kind of riots will be suppressed with mortar fire, but it means it is possible for progena to unite and riot without system opposed until mortars come.

Yet the mortars will come. The progena who rebel will not magically end up still graduating from the Schola and assuming their roles as if nothing ever happened. If the system - or more specifically, the Correction Throne used to brainwash the kids - is broken, it will show. You still have the Drill Abbots to judge them (or trigger a rebellion), after all.

I'm sorry if I'm going too private, but where do you live?

Right now, Ireland. But I've been with the German Air Force, and during that time worked with the US Army for a few weeks as well (although that time was not long enough that I could make anything but the most superficial observations).

Given your statements, I'm actually a little surprised that you doubt my assertion that people living together in an enclosed space for prolonged time wouldn't get to know each other intimately, especially if they are fighting side by side. It could of course simply be a matter of individual perception - we all have different levels of attention, empathy, and body language reading skills - but I had thought this to be a generally accepted thing.

Jullien is unusual. Cain said that, Vael said that. But Vael is a kind of vile joker (you can remember how did she acting with Cain for example), so she speaks in jokes.

I'm sorry, I just can't see the joke here. If you insist even after my prior explanation, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why, after all, Jullien will have more free time that common Sororite?

Are you saying that it's common for Sororitas to play card games and get drunk in their convents, too, like Julien does in the Schola when she's meeting with Cain and the others?

In my interpretation of the setting, the Sisters are busy praying and training, rather than indulging in decadent entertainment, as the latter doesn't really fit to the codex descriptions I've cited earlier.

*****

But like I said earlier, you just seem to have a very different idea of the Sisterhood than I do, so you will probably disagree here, too.

But progeni and their teachers DON'T living together in an enclosed space!

Well. It's not stated, as I readed quickly now. But it definitly haven't any sense - why will you settle teacher with Progeni?

Yet the mortars will come. The progena who rebel will not magically end up still graduating from the Schola and assuming their roles as if nothing ever happened.

Of course - IF progena rebel. But Cain wasn't rebel. He is model commissar by his actions. He had model discipline values in Schola, we know it - and so he lived it through.

Yes, he, maybe, was thinking wrong. But this system AS IT DESCRIBED is bad in detecting wrong thinking. Or we should admit that rebel thoughts are not count as something wrong in Schola - after all they are allowed to happen (Codex says it), no matter you have all that servosculls studing sleeping children.

Are you saying that it's common for Sororitas to play card games and get drunk in their convents, too, like Julien does in the Schola when she's meeting with Cain and the others?

In my interpretation of the setting, the Sisters are busy praying and training, rather than indulging in decadent entertainment, as the latter doesn't really fit to the codex descriptions I've cited earlier.

Yes, that's my thoughts exactly.

Why sisters don't go cranial? Because they are too busy for that. And how they are busy? The Sisters are busy praying and training.

And about "I have explained this two times now already, by the way."

I'm sorry if I had you to, but I believe you just don't get my position here. I'm not arguing that "Cain's Last Stand" is bad book - and overusing tropes is a sympthom for bad book, for sure. If I see love romance where all genre tropes used I'd say it's parody or bad book. And I just believe "Cain's Last Stand" is a bad book, because, well... Mitchel can write better. "Cain's Last Stand" is just boring, first of all.

But my problem is - is EVERY THAT TROPE by itself something bad? Is every this trope something impossible, not even rare, but impossible? If it's possible to posses or control Sister of Battle that mean psyker who can do it shouldn't be One and Only. He can be powerful, but it's not Magnus the Red-level feat.

Once more - I don't trying to say your vision contradict mine (it's obvious, but it's nothing bad at all!) but I'm trying to get do I read codexes so wrong. I used to believe I know where I'm disputing codexes and background books (I just can't agree Tau pheromone version for example), and you saying your vision is codex-based.

Failing to keep your squad alive in a heated battle (and live yourself, to be noticed) as a minor sin?!

Yes, depending on the individual perception of the Sister. Because these cases aren't as clear-cut as, say, a rule that you should never fornicate. Here it would be pretty easy as it is just a yes/no situation. You either had sex or you did not. But being the lone survivor in a heated battle? There's way too many if's involved to make a general, sweeping statement. Some Sisters could just as well believe that it was divine intervention that spared them, just like some officers of the Sororitas could understand that there was, quite possibly, no way to save the others due to how the battle progressed.

That's what I meant with some things being open to interpretations (and thus yielding different responses from individual Sisters), whereas others are more clear-cut and obvious.

But codex speaks directly that Storm Troopers have different tests as Commissars are.

Yes, tests, but not training. Indeed, the tests are designed to see where a progena should proceed:

"Each Schola Progenium employs one or more challenges to separate those who will become Commissars from those who will join the Militarum Tempestus. These tests take diverse forms, but the primary purpose of all such Tests of Compliance is to highlight those cadets who are best committed to obeying orders in adversity, and test how they process those commands. Of course, a percentage of the supplicants fail in their allotted task - many end up as equerries or thralls of the Schola Progenium. Some of these disappointments may work through their sentences as menials and eventually be permitted to join the regular Astra Militarum. Ever eager to prove their worth, these few may yet become Imperial soldiers in their own right."

- C:MT p. 11

Note here that being ordered to shoot your friend is not the only Trial of Compliance a progena may face (p. 12), both in terms of number as well as selection. Not every Commissar has been asked to do this, and even those who were had to pass other Tests as well. Tests they could have failed, too, with a result that would mark them not a security risk, but rather just better suited for a different task. Likewise, all progena have to undergo live ammunition exercises (p. 11, "The Cadet Forge").

As it says on page 12, a progena's ultimate fate is revealed only on Selection Day. Up until that point he or she could always be re-routed to a different Adeptus all depending on how they fared at which challenges.

They may not sleep in the same room, but they still see each other every single day, for the bigger part of the day, for more than a decade, within the isolated walls of the schola. I think that bits and pieces of personality will slip-through in day-to-day activities.

Yes, he, maybe, was thinking wrong. But this system AS IT DESCRIBED is bad in detecting wrong thinking. Or we should admit that rebel thoughts are not count as something wrong in Schola - after all they are allowed to happen (Codex says it), no matter you have all that servosculls studing sleeping children.

I don't agree. These children are being brainwashed and indoctrinated by their curriculum and technology, up to and including the use of drugs (p. 11) and subliminal reconiditioning (p. 7). The riots you mention occur when these techniques are flawed and fail, and as page 11 explains in greater detail, the result is that they go mad .

If they are not properly brainwashed, remnants of their old lives may seep into their newly-forged personality, causing psychosis and ultimately making them go crazy. You can't just "hide your true self" because it will be stripped away. The question is, will your new persona work, or will nightmares of a life you can't remember make you go berserk? So I regard this as a point against Mitchell's novel, too, when it comes to codex compatibility.

Why sisters don't go cranial? Because they are too busy for that. And how they are busy? The Sisters are busy praying and training.

No, not because they are too busy - because it doesn't suit their dogma, their lifestyle. The constant exercise and religious service are merely another part of it. The concepts of self-denial and suffering simply don't seem very compatible with having sex for funsies.

That aside, you are basically establishing that Julien would be even worse than the novel suggests -- she isn't even praying or training and as such has betrayed her vows in an even stronger manner than we are told by the author. Or by Amberley Vail, who doesn't think this to be a strange behaviour for Sisters at all.

Yes, you still think it's a joke, but as I do not, the above has to be part of my consideration and judgement.

I'm sorry if I had you to, but I believe you just don't get my position here. I'm not arguing that "Cain's Last Stand" is bad book - and overusing tropes is a sympthom for bad book, for sure. If I see love romance where all genre tropes used I'd say it's parody or bad book. And I just believe "Cain's Last Stand" is a bad book, because, well... Mitchel can write better. "Cain's Last Stand" is just boring, first of all.

But my problem is - is EVERY THAT TROPE by itself something bad? Is every this trope something impossible, not even rare, but impossible? If it's possible to posses or control Sister of Battle that mean psyker who can do it shouldn't be One and Only. He can be powerful, but it's not Magnus the Red-level feat.

Once more - I don't trying to say your vision contradict mine (it's obvious, but it's nothing bad at all!) but I'm trying to get do I read codexes so wrong. I used to believe I know where I'm disputing codexes and background books (I just can't agree Tau pheromone version for example), and you saying your vision is codex-based.

I certainly don't think that every trope is bad - 40k is full of them! - but if a single book has so many exceptions and special snowflakes that it does not resemble the setting I know, or fails to establish an atmosphere I can respect, then personally I will have a low opinion of it. Because I do not agree with "doing it differently for its own sake", and in my opinion, if Mr. Mitchell was so dead-set about writing Flashman/Blackadder in 40k, he could have chosen a more suitable character background for it. It's not impossible; there are many less hardcore alternatives in the original material where it would not appear so out-of-place. Matter of taste, though.

We are moving in a circular argument as we obviously have different ideas of the setting, and I believe that this is due to the material we've read and grown up on. I am fairly confident that I have read more about Games Workshop's version of the Sisterhood than you, if only because I know that sources like the Liber Sororitas are almost unknown to the larger fandom (even most Sisters fans never read it!).

That isn't a problem by itself - as we established, everyone's interpretation of the setting is equally valid - but it would be a good explanation for how we arrived at different conclusions. Even if you'd read them now, you would probably take them differently than if you had done right away, because you already have an image of the Sororitas established.

There is a psychological concept called Confirmation Bias that has us automatically and subconsciously treat information we consider incompatible with our existing preconceptions as less important, or we may even ignore it entirely without knowing. This is (sadly) an ordinary human thing, and I am not above believing that I am not subject to it, either. In fact, perhaps that is how I could forget the Tempestus codex' hint at certain minimal specialisations in progena training?

And that is before we consider that sometimes, the same sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways, too. As this thread has proven.

PS: For what it's worth .. the Tau Pheromone thing is from Black Library's Xenology, and that book would contradict GW studio material on several accounts, such as Orks supposedly having green blood, or Tau having toes instead of hooves. I don't think I've ever heard of the pheromone idea in a direct GW publication.

If I were to go up to some hardcore 40K fans and describe the feel of my campaign, they would tell me I was wrong in many, many aspects.

*nod nod* This is exactly why I don't discuss much about my campaign here or in any other public forum.

PS: For what it's worth .. the Tau Pheromone thing is from Black Library's Xenology, and that book would contradict GW studio material on several accounts, such as Orks supposedly having green blood, or Tau having toes instead of hooves. I don't think I've ever heard of the pheromone idea in a direct GW publication.

I could swear that I saw it mentioned in relation to the Inquisition somewhere. As in 'there are Ordo Xenos Radicals intent on investigating and duplicating the pheromonal mind control thing for Imerial use'. No idea where I read it though - might have been a Codex, Inquisitor (the Specialist Game) material, or just someone's forum post.

I could swear that I saw it mentioned in relation to the Inquisition somewhere. As in 'there are Ordo Xenos Radicals intent on investigating and duplicating the pheromonal mind control thing for Imerial use'. No idea where I read it though - might have been a Codex, Inquisitor (the Specialist Game) material, or just someone's forum post.

Possibly FFG's Deathwatch core rulebook?

It contained what felt like a small jab at Xenology when it mentioned that the Inquisition is convinced that the Tau must have some sort of biological mind control in order to maintain such a loyal populace, but subsequent autopsies performed on Ethereals captured by the Deathwatch yielded no abnormal organs in their bodies.

Alternatively, you might remember a comment in a codex that the Inquisition is puzzled at the Ethereals' ability to maintain social order - I distinctively remember one of the books mentioning it, but it was only talking about general curiosity, not mentioning any specific theories (such as the pheromones)

They also have no idea why Tau vehicles are named after marine animals

I've also heard the pheromone thing. My understanding was that players were complaining that the Tau weren't dark enough, so GW added the Ethereals with the notion that they were somehow dominating their followers. Is that not GW official?

I've also heard the pheromone thing. My understanding was that players were complaining that the Tau weren't dark enough, so GW added the Ethereals with the notion that they were somehow dominating their followers. Is that not GW official?

I think it might be, but I have no sources.

I think this is once again a mix-up where the community has merged two different stories to generate a mishmash where nobody is quite sure of its true origin anymore.

What GW has done is describe a special helmet used by Ethereals to communicate with Vespid auxiliaries -- and the description does hint at it possibly being a mind control device, as if it could sort of override their hivemind.

The pheromone thing to control other Tau , however, I have seen nowhere outside of Black Library's Xenology book, which also conflicts with GW fluff on a number of other details.

I wonder how much I've been lied to, reading the wiki...

Well, "lying" is a fairly strong word for it ... I think the wiki's main problem is that it evokes the impression that there actually is a single truth, when it's just a couple editors choosing the version they like the most, or "kitbashing" a new headcanon in an attempt to merge sources that were never meant to go with one another in the first place.

Sometimes, however, the wiki does actually lie. I remember the article for Miriael Sabathiel claimed that she was mentioned in the codex, even giving a page reference. But she wasn't. I want to believe it was unintentional, but actually citing a source and page makes it hard to consider it an act of simple carelessness.

I still believe that the admins of the wikis should feel obligated to repeat in the writers' words how 40k "canon" functions, possibly in a disclaimer on their main page. Until that happens, a lot of fans will continue to be led astray.

Sometimes, however, the wiki does actually lie.

I've not been able to find it recently (possibly because it was corrected), but I would swear that at some point I read (either on Lexicanum of the 40K Wiki) that the Imperial Palace was located in North America rather than the Himalayas.

I remember the article for Miriael Sabathiel claimed that she was mentioned in the codex, even giving a page reference. But she wasn't.

You know it's strange.

I remember perfectly that I saw her in some Codex source, don't recall which one. But when I checked she wasn't there. I remember her, I remember how page looked like - not as a photo, but I'll know it if I see it.

It's possible I have some kind of paramnesia, but I'm quite sure I was convinced about codexian Sabathiel long before I learned about 40K Wiki. I'm not sure I was convinced before 40K Wiki come to existence, but I was shocked when you tell me she wasn't in codexes and I checked. Really shocked.

Heheh, I know what you mean -- I've had a similar experience on other topics.

Tbh, I'd actually like if she were, as it'd reinforce this "the one big exception from the rule" idea, and she's a great character in her own right. Plus, it's not unusual for GW to incorporate facets of freelance writers' work into their own books, if they feel it fits in with their own ideas.

"If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books."

-- Gav Thorpe