What's wrong with Cain?

By Aenno, in Dark Heresy General Discussion

Posted at

Good thing charge packs can be recharged in the field, greatly diminishing the need to get replacements to the frontlines.

The same couldn't be said for other armaments such as heavy bolter rounds or missiles etc. Are you saying these planets manage to craft bolter rounds according to a galactic standard ( Standard Template Construct), but for some weird, inexplicable reason their charge packs are incompatible?

I'm still gonna go with Occham's Razor here. It prevents the headache of trying to find explanations for this sort of stuff. ;)

And charge packs still need replacement after some time. Guard regiments are sometimes "in the field" for decades before being allowed to settle down. Regiments at half strength often get merged, resulting in wildly different appearance of uniform and armament. Do you believe the Munitorum would be capable of coping with the resulting mix if the spare parts and ammunition were not standardised, but require gathering from all over the IoM?

Also; whatever he intended with the books, the guy who writes as Sandy Mitchell (I think his surname is Stewart) is a long-term 40k gamer and does know the setting fairly well since 1st/2nd edition - this is why he likes slipping things like Ambulls in, as nods to stuff that's not in the game anymore. Whatever he might decide to do, I would be hesitant to assume he doesn't know about things.

Well, quite a lot of long-term 40k gamers are unaware of small details in the setting, as GW isn't doing a very good job of distributing them. Just look at all the hardcore Space Marine fans who can recite the battles of their preferred Chapter in detail, yet still manage to miss such crucial organisational details of how exactly it is structured, then ending up complaining about how "1,000 warriors don't make sense" or asking questions such as "who is driving the Rhinos" even though it says it right in the codex.

I guess it's a matter of focus, and not everyone is interested in all sorts of details.
That being said ... yeah, it's not unlikely that Mitchell simply opted to disregard the original Schola background because he knew his intended protagonist would not make sense in such an environment. Black Library does allow such degrees of artistic freedom, obviously.

Equally, the one sororitas who's held up as out-of-character is very much out of character for a sister even in the book - she joins the card games when the other instructors expect her to disapprove, and even in-character Cain's jaw essentially hits the floor on discovering she's the one the administratum clerk's been sleeping and drinking with.

That still doesn't justify someone from her organisation ending up doing these things. It would be acceptable for a veteran to have developed one or two uncharacteristic idiosyncrasies that seem weird for such an individual - but so many of them? And the sexual relationship is quite simply treason against the code of the Sororitas, and it's hard to imagine just how a brainwashed battle-nun who was indoctrinated from birth would fall this far.

A character like that would risk being made Repentia or simply executed. That she ends up being in charge of training the very next generation of Sororitas is just icing on the cake.

To be brutally honest: to me, the whole relationship deal just came across as wishful thinking sexualising the Sororitas -- the written form of Rule 34. It'd be the same if there was a book that described a Space Marine shagging a bunch of women just because the author imagined it's something his readers would love to see. I mean, what purpose did this relationship even serve in the novel? It had zero relevance to the plot, and achieved nothing other than to make the Sororitas look bad and cater to certain groups of the fanbase? :P If this character was not meant to be representative of the Sororitas, why else have her be a Sororitas at all ?

Don't get me wrong: a character like this would be "okay" (but still weirdly out of place) if the Sororitas would work like normal, contemporary nuns. But at least if you go by the original material, they don't. They are quite a bit more hardcore, because Grimdark.

Also, the idea of Adepta Sororitas being trained in local scholars actually makes more sense to me than the original idea of everyone going to Ophelia II or Terra. Space Travel is a huge deal in the Imperium - travel to terra is a life's task for pilgrims and the idea of thousands of novices being brought in on a yearly basis seems.....wierd.

Unlike the Astropathica (who can argue that there's the Black Ships in unknown number and with unknown but probably high levels of tech to move identified psykers around) the Adepta Sororitas/Ecclesiarchy have no substansive fleet of their own, and whilst the Adepta Sororitas' numbers aren't formally defined, there is an organisational tier below the 'Order' (the 'Preceptory') which is stated to be the size of a space marine chapter, which means at a minimum there are 12,000 of them (2 Convents x 3 Orders x 2 Preceptories x 1,000 battle sisters). In reality, there's going to be gakloads more than that, because that assumes only two preceptories per major order and doesn't cover minor orders or non-militant orders who recruit from the same 'pool'.

Plus, unlike the soul-binding of the astropath, there's nothing that happens to sororitas novitiates which can't be done elsewhere (like geneseed implantation or soul-binding).

The logistics of moving recruits around from right across the galaxy (rather than just the local sectors) to there to train and having them be battle-ready and get them back to a front line whilst still of an age to do some good seems unlikely; after all, If I remember the old fluff right (which is more or less what got re-used in Rogue Trader), a warp journey from one end of the Imperium to another is ~ 6 years). Having the Eastern Fringe train its own battle sisters locally works.

This is a matter of interpretation and how you see the Adepta Sororitas as an organisation. The original material suggests a rather small group that has fewer warriors than the Space Marines (which makes sense, as these girls are described as being able to keep up with them, which is a feat very few humans in the galaxy would be capable of). If the Black Ships manage to carry thousands of psykers to Terra every day , certainly the Adepta Sororitas can manage to arrange transportation for 500 over a much longer period.

The Major Orders are all located in two places -- Terra and Ophelia -- and each Primary Convent has maximum living space for 15,000 Battle Sisters. That's a maximum of 30,000 for six Major Orders. The number of Minor Orders has not been defined, but we know how slow the Sisterhood has been growing from M36 to M38 (from 10,000 to 30,000 total in 2,500 years ) and can make an educated guess from there. We also know that the Minor Orders don't have nearly as big an attrition rate as the Major Orders, who are essentially functioning like the Storm Troopers in that they are rushing from one operation to the next rather than standing guard as the Minor Orders do.

And as for the ships:

"Each Convent has its own fleets and runs its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters."
-- 2E Codex Imperialis
On a sidenote, the speed at which these vessels move depend greatly on what you are looking at. Imperial Guard regiments are said to be able to cover their standard response radius within only 2-3 months, and as we all know certain Space Marine Chapters manage to show up all over the place. Look where Armageddon is located on the map, then look at Cadia, and then keep in mind that some Marine Chapters managed to fight at both places in the same year.
"The major Orders Militant are primarily a mobile strike force, deployed against threats to Imperial security and purity as and when the need arises. Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium.
The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces.
In an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport, the Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all. The Navy is however, unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels."
-- BFG
I'm also not sure if the Rogue Trader RPG is a good representation of the original material when it comes to this detail. We do know that there are huge discrepancies when it comes to crew sizes, for example. In BFG, ships have maybe a tenth of the crew that ships have in RT, or fewer.

Mind you, this too is a question of which sources you choose to go by. There is a lot of licensed material that suggests the Sororitas are far bigger (and, simultaneously, far weaker) than the Space Marines.

Dark Heresy isn't even consistent with its own books here. The number of Battle Sisters in the Calixis sector skyrocketed by a factor of 100 as FFG's writers took over. From an unusually high presence of a whopping 50 Nuns with Guns in the Inquisitor's Handbook (which would be compatible with the numbers suggested in codex fluff) to what would be one sixth of the total fighting power of the Sisterhood amassing in a single sector.

Yes, we have some kind of bits - some here and there, something looking cool in codices authors view. Cain novels (not his own heroics, but something around) shows how normal civilian governments works and how it's connected to military on examples.

You have such examples in GW material as well. Off the top of my head, the governments of Armageddon, Cadia, Necromunda and Vostroya have been described.

Are we count Reign of Blood as the one?

Yeah - or more specifically, Thor's revolution against Vandire.

The Ecclesiarchy regularly stamps out smaller cults it feels have strayed too far from approved doctrine (which obviously means there must be some uniformity), but this is basically just bullying a bunch of locals. The Thorian insurgency on the other hand was a conflict that affected the entire Imperium, almost as bad as the Horus Heresy.

And even this wasn't really the fault of the Ministorum per se ... Vandire was no actual cleric, just an Administratum official who made himself pope. The effects of his rule did spread corruption throughout the entire Adeptus, though. One of the reasons why the Thorian Reforms had to enact so many changes after the dust had settled.

But problem is you need some kind of not-so-strict clergy to do so - and Sororitas are shown as somebody, well, very strict. It's very loose doctrine - "hey, you can believe anything you want, if you're agree that Emperor Protects and Administratum is a conduit for his will". I believe it's the only doctrine can work in Imperium, but SoB codices shows something another.

It's not an actual problem. You just have local preachers on one end, and the Ministorum leadership and their Sororitas enforcers on the other. The two groups aren't interacting with each other on a daily basis. Indeed, the source material points out how the Sisters are committed to life in isolation, shutting themselves off from outward influences to preserve their purity.

Real life Christianity certainly served as an example here -- there are a lot of similarities, including different interpretations of religious scripture, and a central authority (the Vatican) deciding on what is still in line with dogma and what constitutes "heresy".

"There are countless factions of belief within the Ecclesiarchy, each preaching a slightly different message. Some are more common than others and in the dark times of the 41st Millennium the most apocalyptic, militant faiths have many supporters.
These doctrines are highly xenophobic and violent, its members sworn to expunge all sin with fire and blade. For some cults their focus of hatred is very limited: mutants, witches or aliens. For others, such as the Redemptionists, they see sin in every creature, which must be purged through bloodshed; it really is a dogma of kill or be killed in the most extreme cases."
-- GW Inquisitor
In a way, you could say the Sororitas are simply one of these factions - their beliefs are probably quite close to many of the more hardcore interpretations of faith.
"There are usually only two reasons why the forces of the Ecclesiarchy would fight alone against an enemy. The first of these is as the primary line of defence before other troops arrive. Preachers, Confessors and Missionaries are often the first to discover hidden cults, confront alien invaders and generally get into trouble. The other situation is during a War of Faith, when certain followers of the Emperor misinterpret His word as taught by the Ministorum, thus becoming heretics. Some Wars of Faith sweep through entire systems and signify massive upheaval, others are a much more local affair. In these circumstances, the Ecclesiarchy is unlikely to get aid from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines and must use its own forces alone to achieve its aims."
-- WD #212
Yet still:
"As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites, the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time."

-- GW Liber Sororitas

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Yeah - or more specifically, Thor's revolution against Vandire.

Then there is at least two. Plague of Unbelief was another matter from Thor's revolution.
In a way, you could say the Sororitas are simply one of these factions - their beliefs are probably quite close to many of the more hardcore interpretations of faith.

As I know, btw, Sisters of Battle are some kind of fail-safe against top-level Ecclesearchy heresy. Don't recall where I read it though.

Real life Christianity certainly served as an example here -- there are a lot of similarities, including different interpretations of religious scripture, and a central authority (the Vatican) deciding on what is still in line with dogma and what constitutes "heresy".

Point is real life Christianity is not always accept Vatican authority (and that caused Reformation Wars, btw). You mean Catholicism (and for sure Imperial Credo inspired by Catholicism!), and it have very strict dogma, with different interpretation of Holy Bible strongly forbidden. There is one correct variation, everything else is not right (and for some non-ecumenical times is a grave offence itself!).

Edited by Aenno
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Point is real life Christianity is not always accept Vatican authority (and that caused Reformation Wars, btw). You mean Catholicism (and for sure Imperial Credo inspired by Catholicism!), and it have very strict dogma, with different interpretation of Holy Bible strongly forbidden. There is one correct variation, everything else is not right (and for some non-ecumenical times is a grave offence itself!).

Well that's not necessarily true. When European colonization was happening all over the world, missionaries often would "adapt" Christianity and the local religion to ease the locals into orthodox Christianity. That's why you see a lot of native customs and festivals with a Christian veneer in say, Latin America.

Now imagine that in the entire galaxy, with every planet months away from each other and communication just as slow. It is easy to see that the Imperial Creed would have some very core tenets, with variation accepted up to a certain point.

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Well that's not necessarily true. When European colonization was happening all over the world, missionaries often would "adapt" Christianity and the local religion to ease the locals into orthodox Christianity. That's why you see a lot of native customs and festivals with a Christian veneer in say, Latin America.

It's not so easy.
Missionaires was not adapting Christianity, they described Christian concepts in local terms. That was not, with Catholicism, kind of "another interpretations of religious scripture", that was forbidden - in Catholicism and Orthodoxy at least. And to be honest there is a little remains with local religions in Latin America - well, because there was Holy Mission to stop sacrifices, then "locals should be subjuated to make prozelition easily"... well, we know Northern American paganism better that Southern American. And, well, it was after Great Clean Faith Age. :)
But of course clear Catholic by 11-14 Ages are not possible in Imperium. I'm agree with it completly. That's kind of my point. :)
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Then there is at least two. Plague of Unbelief was another matter from Thor's revolution.

The Plague of Unbelief was just a result or part of the Age of Apostasy, though.

"Of the many heresies and rebellions that marked the Age of Apostasy, one of the most notable is the Plague of Unbelief."

-- 2E C:SoB p. 39
Gathalamor and the surrounding sectors were cut off from the rest of the Imperium due to the situation on Terra, and when Bucharis took to power he was effectively controlling part of Vandire's church, utterly unaware that the mad Highlord had already been killed. As such, the Plague of Unbelief was merely the death-throes of the Vandirian Ministorum and its many failings, succeeding its origins for only a few decades until it, too, was brought low in almost a mirror of the Thorian crusade.
As I know, btw, Sisters of Battle are some kind of fail-safe against top-level Ecclesearchy heresy. Don't recall where I read it though.

Yep! Much like the real life church and its Inquisition , the Ecclesiarchy too keeps watch on the various factions and deviations among the beliefs of its members, and can interfere if someone steps over the thin line from "local interpretation" to "heresy". In these cases, it is often a small mission of Sororitas who are tasked with bringing the wayward diocese back under control. As such, it fits that they basically embody the core tenets of the Imperial Creed, undiluted by native beliefs as they may be found in many local temples.

As a consequence of the Thorian Reforms, they also serve as a "fail-safe", as you put it, when it comes to high officials turning from the Emperor's light, although it would probably take a rather visible demonstration of corruption to trigger their wrath, given that they still see themselves as loyal servants of the church - including the Ecclesiarch.
Point is real life Christianity is not always accept Vatican authority (and that caused Reformation Wars, btw). You mean Catholicism (and for sure Imperial Credo inspired by Catholicism!), and it have very strict dogma, with different interpretation of Holy Bible strongly forbidden. There is one correct variation, everything else is not right (and for some non-ecumenical times is a grave offence itself!).

That sounds just like the Ecclesiarchy is supposed to work! But just like with real life Christianity, the authority cannot hope to push its "one true variation" too much, lest it triggers major conflict with itself. Throughout history, the Vatican has attempted to counter deviant interpretations, yet obviously it had not succeeded everywhere, else Christianity would look much more uniform today than it really is.

I actually recall an example, for I remember the controversy surrounding the so-called Opus Dei .

It seems the church simply accepts some things as a matter of fact in order to "preserve the peace" -- and the intricancies of interstellar communication in 40k would further limit the central authority's ability to interfere on a local level even where it wanted. The Ecclesiarchy is, quite simply, somewhat limited in how it can act here. But just like with the real life church, it still tries. ;)

"There is a fine line between enlightened, healthy debate and heresy, and throughout the Ecclesiarchy's long history there are individuals and sects that have crossed that line. [...] Most heretics are not minions of the Genestealers, or do not actually worship the Chaos gods. Their views simply differ from those of the Ecclesiarchy to such a degree that they represent a threat to established order."
"The Imperial Creed, like any religion, is open to much interpretation, from the Ecclesiarch down to the parish preachers. Differing schools of thought exist within the organisation of the Ministorum concerning certain strictures, passages from the Litanies of Faith and so on. Although these schools differ in opinion from each other, and often the Ecclesiarch, it is rare now for them to be declared heretic unless they are of exceptional deviancy. Generally, these different viewpoints all lead in a similar direction and it is a matter of detail that separates the various sects."
"Matters of protocol, the layout of shrines and architectural styles are all matters of contention and often the Holy Synod will rage for weeks with a debate concerning a matter the ordinary citizen would find trivial, or more likely, incomprehensible."
-- 2E C:SoB p. 37

On a sidenote, this is also why the Ecclesiarchy pushes for a singular, uniform worldview throughout every single Schola Progenium, as it knows its students will filter directly into the ranks of the Sororitas, the Administratum, the Guard, and so on, and many will hold positions of power and influence later on:

"Whereas the Astra Militarum is made up of soldiers from a huge number of different cultures, the progena of the Schola Progenium are not permitted cultural variety. Though they may arrive there from different worlds, they are quickly recast in the same Imperial mould. As a result of this, they can be relied upon to put the orders of their superiors first and foremost before any local loyalties."

-- 6E C:MT p. 10

Well that's not necessarily true. When European colonization was happening all over the world, missionaries often would "adapt" Christianity and the local religion to ease the locals into orthodox Christianity. That's why you see a lot of native customs and festivals with a Christian veneer in say, Latin America.

Now imagine that in the entire galaxy, with every planet months away from each other and communication just as slow. It is easy to see that the Imperial Creed would have some very core tenets, with variation accepted up to a certain point.

Indeed -- I really think GW just looked at the real life church when writing up the Ecclesiarchy. A couple months ago, I have read an interesting article about why Christianity was so successful in spreading to all parts of the world, and the reason suggested was that they basically invented the mission. They were the first faith to aggressively expand into other faiths, and in doing so sometimes supplanted native beliefs.

A lot of the Christian holidays we know simply replaced existing ones from a different religion because people would be more likely to accept these changes. Christmas replaced the Roman Saturnalia, Valentine's Day the Supercalia, Easter replaced the Saxon Eastra, Halloween the Gaelic Samhain, and so on. This is exactly how Ecclesiarchy Missionaries are spreading the Imperial Creed.

The only difference is that the real world church propagated a uniform acceptance of these "usurped" holidays whereas the Ecclesiarchy will accept that some holidays will remain limited to a single world or system ... but I would say this is more due to lack of contact between these religious groups and that with a million worlds, you'd have several holidays every single day.

Also, it's really not as if the Christian church does not have any local variations in this regard. See here for an example clearly influenced by differing native influences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(holiday)#Epiphany_in_different_Christian_traditions

Much like the Ecclesiarchy, the Christian church has to juggle what interpretations to accept and which to condem, as there are a lot of different interpretations when it comes to details. See for example how the church struggled to curtail flagellantism that was rather popular in Europe for a time. And is still popular in Latin America today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant#Modern_flagellants

Edited by Lynata
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The Plague of Unbelief was just a result or part of the Age of Apostasy, though.

Well, isn't Reign of Blood and Age of Apostasy different things?

As a consequence of the Thorian Reforms, they also serve as a "fail-safe", as you put it, when it comes to high officials turning from the Emperor's light, although it would probably take a rather visible demonstration of corruption to trigger their wrath, given that they still see themselves as loyal servants of the church - including the Ecclesiarch.

Yes; but where do they get thier pure canon if there is thousands and thousands different equal-right canons?
Throughout history, the Vatican has attempted to counter deviant interpretations, yet obviously it had not succeeded everywhere, else Christianity would look much more uniform today than it really is.

Yes. So we haven't any "united Christianity". Catholics, Protestants, Orthodoxes, Reformed, Nestorians, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Real life brought a lot of religious wars here. Crusade against Cathars, sacing of Constantinople, Reformation Wars, religious wars in French ("was Jesus catholic or protestant?"), Irish religion strife (with addition of British problem, but "are you Catholic atheist ot protestant one?"), Russian "starovertsi", who was exiled to Siberia and so on.

Is Imperial Credo just divided this way? Can some imperial priest Luther say "hey, we belive in Emperor, yeah, and He Protects, and he was between us, but Terra? Nah, that's just bunch of corrupt bureucrats. Sod off, Terrans." Let's say planet continue to pay their taxes. Is this kind of situations normal? Or planet that don't accept Terran religious authority because it's local secular ruler who is head of Church, as Anglicans say?

A couple months ago, I have read an interesting article about why Christianity was so successful in spreading to all parts of the world, and the reason suggested was that they basically invented the mission. They were the first faith to aggressively expand into other faiths, and in doing so sometimes supplanted native beliefs.

It's not accurate (Buddhism was first), and it was not "hey, continue to pray your sun god, and continue to sacrifice your girls for him, just, well, call him Jesus, ok?" Priests take local customs and just... well, let's be honest - just steal it. Yeah, Easter came from Eoster (Eastra, Ester), but no common Catholic in Saxony will remember it today.

That's what I called "controversy". Your version is very similiar to something described in AS codexes. But... well, it's can't work good. Just because Imperium is very-very big, and rulebook position is something I can accept with very more faith. Where there is three core believes and if you approve it, well, you're ok.

Edited by Aenno
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I fail to see the point you are trying to make.

There are core tenets of the Imperial Creed. These are universal. If there is deviation form this core, it is heresy. As long as these core tenets are upheld, there is leeway. This leeway allows for many variations on a local level. The Harvest-Faithful have their own rites and positions on Novabella, just as the Virbians worship the Storm-Lord on Virbius. Both are acceptable if they still follow the core tenets.

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I think of Cain as Flashman and Jurgen as McAuslan -- if only the regiment were Drookian Fen Troopers or Finreht Highlanders the resemblance would be perfect.

Another major change from canon is that the "framing story" is expressly written in M.42, which has never been and may never be reached in the tabletop game. It's always one minute to midnight -- no further. More recently of course, Schola Progeniums have been shown to be far harsher and grimdark than depicted in Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts, which leads to a bit of dissonance. I've read it argued that what we see in the rulebooks is merely propaganda, promoting the ideal, and the fiction reflects the "reality" of the setting better. I sometimes think of them as mildly alternate universes, like the difference between the Bloodbowl version of the Warhammer World and the "normal" version.

Edited by JenBurdoo
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There are core tenets of the Imperial Creed. These are universal. If there is deviation form this core, it is heresy. As long as these core tenets are upheld, there is leeway. This leeway allows for many variations on a local level. The Harvest-Faithful have their own rites and positions on Novabella, just as the Virbians worship the Storm-Lord on Virbius. Both are acceptable if they still follow the core tenets.

There are core tenets of Christianity. There is One God, who created all being. There was Jesus Christ, he was Son of God (and One God himself), he was crucified and ressurected on the third day. Core Christian tenets don't include Easter, or Christmas, or clergy, or Rome supremacy, or celibate, or divorce rules, or filioque, or saints, or Holy Maiden, or devil, or anything.
So christians, who were perfectly agree with this core tenets, fighting each other for thousand years. How many fingers do you use to make sign of the cross? Have the bishop of Rome some special rights or he hasn't? Can a king be a head of Church? Is it allowed to read Holy Bible to common man? Can you baptize a child?
So we know core tenets of Imperial Credo. Are they enough? Yes if you ask me. No if you ask kind of medieval cleric, who is a model to Imperial Ecclesiarchy and proclaims holy wars to another Christian who believes, for example, that common man should have a right to read Holy Bible. So problem is that GW is not sillier than I and they can see that rigid medieval-type religious doctrine can't survive vast spaces of Milky Way. That's why they use, well, quite modern idea "it's not very important how do you belive in Emperor until you do it". But, for example, SoB codicies show another picture, with quite strict and total Imperial Cult doctrine, with some decent and firm united hierarchy from Ecclesiarch to the last local priest.
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The same couldn't be said for other armaments such as heavy bolter rounds or missiles etc. Are you saying these planets manage to craft bolter rounds according to a galactic standard ( Standard Template Construct), but for some weird, inexplicable reason their charge packs are incompatible?

Because there could still be many standard charge packs, like there are many standards of bullets.

So christians, who were perfectly agree with this core tenets, fighting each other for thousand years. How many fingers do you use to make sign of the cross? Have the bishop of Rome some special rights or he hasn't? Can a king be a head of Church? Is it allowed to read Holy Bible to common man? Can you baptize a child?

You forget something in your argumentation. England was independant from Vatican on a political/ "national" level. The king, if he didn't fear the promise of hell and decided to be a "heretic" and proclaim himself as head of church and change what he wants, no one could stop this. Yes, the pope could excommunicate him, but the king was now head of church in his country, a people will shut up because he's the king and he's go men-at-arms to enforce his decrees..and priests that will follow him for the same reasons.

When you look at the vatican, of course they could call crusades, but christianity had one strong country torn from the catholicism and just went out of many crusades, not so easy to enforce the pope's decree. For laws and rules to work, there must be the possibility of consequences. At first, they were spiritual, but now, they needed to be physical, and the pope couldn't.

In the Imperium, if you go heretic, the Imperium will come after you. Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum, Imperial Guard, Frateris Militia, Adeptus Astartes.

You will maintain the core tenets; which certainly doesn't give the leeway to NOT recognize the authority of segmentum Synode and such; or you will be crushed by the imperial war machine.

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Well, isn't Reign of Blood and Age of Apostasy different things?

The Reign of Blood is part of the Age of Apostasy, just like the Plague of Unbelief.

Reign of Blood = Vandire

Plague of Unbelief = Bucharis

Both incidents occurred in the same period - the Age of Apostasy.

Yes; but where do they get thier pure canon if there is thousands and thousands different equal-right canons?

From the Holy Synod. :)

The "thousands different equal-right canons" are local variations - and if any of them strays too far from what the Holy Synod has sanctioned, they will be labelled and pursued as heretics (see the earlier quote). They are not "equally right", they are simply tolerated as part of the wider church.

It's exactly the same with the Catholic Church and, say, the Augustinians, the Jesuits, the Dominicans, Franciscans, and all the others. They're all following slightly different interpretations of the faith in spite of being members of the same church. If the differences grow too much, conflict follows, as you already implied by mentioning the European wars of religion.

Is Imperial Credo just divided this way? Can some imperial priest Luther say "hey, we belive in Emperor, yeah, and He Protects, and he was between us, but Terra? Nah, that's just bunch of corrupt bureucrats. Sod off, Terrans." Let's say planet continue to pay their taxes. Is this kind of situations normal? Or planet that don't accept Terran religious authority because it's local secular ruler who is head of Church, as Anglicans say?

The Sororitas' 2E codex actually went into quite a bit of detail regarding this -- apparently, there is a lot of heated debate between different schools of thought over topics such as the Emperor already being a god before slaying Horus or only ascending to godhood upon entering the Golden Throne. The codex even provided names for these factions, but I'd have to look them up again. Just say if you're interested and I'll dig it up again. :)

It's not accurate (Buddhism was first), and it was not "hey, continue to pray your sun god, and continue to sacrifice your girls for him, just, well, call him Jesus, ok?" Priests take local customs and just... well, let's be honest - just steal it. Yeah, Easter came from Eoster (Eastra, Ester), but no common Catholic in Saxony will remember it today.

That's what I called "controversy". Your version is very similiar to something described in AS codexes. But... well, it's can't work good. Just because Imperium is very-very big, and rulebook position is something I can accept with very more faith. Where there is three core believes and if you approve it, well, you're ok.

Buddhism never expanded so aggressively, though - at least from how this academic article explained it. In part this may simply have to do with the religion piggy-backing on the martial power of Rome, resulting in missionaries being more bold and forceful as they could sometimes simply afford to have soldiers massacre an entire town if they were unwilling to convert.

I still don't understand the controversy, though. :mellow: Priests stealing local customs is exactly how it was explained in 40k as well. If there are any discrepancies, I'm sure they could simply be attributed to the writers at GW not being theologists, but at the same time they also seem so small that any lay person is unlikely to recognise them.

More recently of course, Schola Progeniums have been shown to be far harsher and grimdark than depicted in Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts, which leads to a bit of dissonance. I've read it argued that what we see in the rulebooks is merely propaganda, promoting the ideal, and the fiction reflects the "reality" of the setting better. I sometimes think of them as mildly alternate universes, like the difference between the Bloodbowl version of the Warhammer World and the "normal" version.

The Schola Progenium has already been described as harsh and grimdark in 2nd edition, it's just that the novels were always free to pursue a somewhat ... well, alternate universe, as you describe it.

The official explanation is that nothing we read is 100% true, so we are all free to choose what to believe in. In the end, just like some novel authors ignore details in the codices, GW simply ignores most of the novels when they're writing their next book, which is why we are having so many discrepancies all over the place.

So we know core tenets of Imperial Credo. Are they enough? Yes if you ask me. No if you ask kind of medieval cleric, who is a model to Imperial Ecclesiarchy and proclaims holy wars to another Christian who believes, for example, that common man should have a right to read Holy Bible. So problem is that GW is not sillier than I and they can see that rigid medieval-type religious doctrine can't survive vast spaces of Milky Way. That's why they use, well, quite modern idea "it's not very important how do you belive in Emperor until you do it". But, for example, SoB codicies show another picture, with quite strict and total Imperial Cult doctrine, with some decent and firm united hierarchy from Ecclesiarch to the last local priest.

Have you seen the quotes I posted earlier? About the very same SoB codices discussing the differences between factions of the church, and the debates that take place in the Holy Synod about the silliest details?

Because there could still be many standard charge packs, like there are many standards of bullets.

Why is it only the charge packs that are for some reason different? Why not the bolt rounds? The Chimaera APCs? The Valkyries?

Why should such a discrepancy exist in specifically this place but be absent elsewhere?

Like I said, Occham's Razor. ;)

Edited by Lynata
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The Reign of Blood is part of the Age of Apostasy, just like the Plague of Unbelief.

Reign of Blood = Vandire

Plague of Unbelief = Bucharis

Both incidents occurred in the same period - the Age of Apostasy.

Yes. Age of Apostasy is kind of time when great religion wars happens. Not just one war, but at least two.

It's exactly the same with the Catholic Church and, say, the Augustinians, the Jesuits, the Dominicans, Franciscans, and all the others. They're all following slightly different interpretations of the faith in spite of being members of the same church. If the differences grow too much, conflict follows, as you already implied by mentioning the European wars of religion.

Nononononono! :)
Orders in Catholic Church are not using "slightly different interpretations of the faith". Basic point of catholicism is that there is only one authority to institute interpretation of Faith, and it's Papacy. Well, there is Councils as well, but Papal ex cafedra overrules them. Orders are not "interpretation of the faith", it's not doctrine but style of life. That's why every new catholic order rule was approved by the Pope.
And that's exactly how Ecclesiarchy works in SoB codexes I read. There can be dozens of groups, orders, theologists, but there is ONE authority to take ONEof interpretation as a canon. Or just proclaim something "outside canonic restrictions and obidiences". You can argue as much as you like until any decision will be instituted, and any following arguing is a point to invoke penance at least. And you can't say "hey, I just followed tradition of my order!" Not something as "hey, you believe Jesus Christ have one nature (divine only), I believe for two natures (divine and human), but it's not matter, we both believes Jesus Christ was a god! Let's hug each other!"

I still don't understand the controversy, though. :mellow: Priests stealing local customs is exactly how it was explained in 40k as well. If there are any discrepancies, I'm sure they could simply be attributed to the writers at GW not being theologists, but at the same time they also seem so small that any lay person is unlikely to recognise them.

You take CUSTOM, not a DOCTRINE.
Well, let me put it this way. Catholics COULD take a holy day of your sun god and transform it into christianic holiday. That's custom. But they can't agree that your sun god IS Jesus Christ, because tenet of catholic church proclaim that Jesus Christ had human nature as well as divine. For praying your sun (or your holy tree) as a god you will be prosecuted.
You want to pray Holy Virgin in Eostre day (custom issue)? Good man.
You want to pray Eostre in Eostre day because she is the same with Holy Virgin (doctrine issue)? Blashemer.
But this kind of action was not work very good (in a short run at least) in the small Europe. There was a lot of bad blood spilled until Europe was baptized, and Rome can't really take full control for doctrine from Iceland to Poland. So in a long way system broke itself to Reformation (and Reformation Wars).

And you're speaking about Milky Way without any solid communications. Terra can't really control all this temples, GW authors understands it well (they just write it directly) so GW speaking about ecumenism and "no matter how do you pray for Emperor if you do it".

I believe humans who just steal one of the hardest dispute in early christian theology ("when exactly Jesus became a god?") knows theology good enough. They just didn't have a directive to create solid uncontroversal description, taking HIGH GOTHIC TEMPLES and HOLY MILITANT SYSTERS WITH CLEANSING FIRE. There should be something creating mental images, not kind of encyclopedia article. It's not bad, it's just approach. And they used some kind of broad brush mixed with unconcrete quantity of propaganda.

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Why is it only the charge packs that are for some reason different? Why not the bolt rounds? The Chimaera APCs? The Valkyries?

M... I always believed all that issues are, in fact, STC designs, and only difference between them is a result of data corruption and restoratioin.
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Yes. Age of Apostasy is kind of time when great religion wars happens. Not just one war, but at least two.

Still it all goes back to Vandire. Without him, the church would still have been in decline (after all, it was this situation that had allowed him to seize power), but you would have had neither the Reign of Blood nor the Plague of Unbelief.

Nononononono! :)
Orders in Catholic Church are not using "slightly different interpretations of the faith". Basic point of catholicism is that there is only one authority to institute interpretation of Faith, and it's Papacy. Well, there is Councils as well, but Papal ex cafedra overrules them. Orders are not "interpretation of the faith", it's not doctrine but style of life. That's why every new catholic order rule was approved by the Pope.
And that's exactly how Ecclesiarchy works in SoB codexes I read. There can be dozens of groups, orders, theologists, but there is ONE authority to take ONEof interpretation as a canon. Or just proclaim something "outside canonic restrictions and obidiences". You can argue as much as you like until any decision will be instituted, and any following arguing is a point to invoke penance at least. And you can't say "hey, I just followed tradition of my order!" Not something as "hey, you believe Jesus Christ have one nature (divine only), I believe for two natures (divine and human), but it's not matter, we both believes Jesus Christ was a god! Let's hug each other!"

The Catholic Church asserts the “capital importance of biblical interpretation” and Catholic scholars recognize some "diversity in the Bible." This allows for an "openness" of interpretation as long as it stays within the Catholic Church’s theological Tradition. So it is that "theological factors set the parameters" for interpreting the Scripture that Catholics believe to be the "word of God." Such parameters disallow the “widely differening interpretations” that make it possible for Protestants to prove “almost anything” by the Bible.

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics#Diverse_interpretations

Sounds just like it says in any and all material GW has ever released for the Adeptus Ministorum in 40k, and as I have quoted earlier.

You take CUSTOM, not a DOCTRINE.

Well, let me put it this way. Catholics COULD take a holy day of your sun god and transform it into christianic holiday. That's custom. But they can't agree that your sun god IS Jesus Christ, because tenet of catholic church proclaim that Jesus Christ had human nature as well as divine. For praying your sun (or your holy tree) as a god you will be prosecuted.

Quite often, doctrine is born from custom. And the Imperial Creed is a bit more open than Christian dogma in that its core tenets are easier to reconcile with local beliefs, so it is far easier to merge with other cultures. Same approach, same techniques, just a broader application. It's easy to see how GW's writers could be inspired by this though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_Christiana

I still fail to see the problem with any of this. There are no inconsistencies as initially claimed, and I don't see why it should not work out.

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Well... I believe you're taking Catholic Church’s theological Tradition too broad (and not count when it become a case). But let's take it.

Let's imagine our board-minded modern catholic church, that not proclaim crusade for, well, five hundred years, is ecumenic, speaking loud about co-working with another faiths. Is it an image of Ecclesiarchy that is created by 2nd ed. SoB codex in your mind? Or it's something about vast crusader armies, holy flame purging anything that can be taken as a heresy, and rigor doctrine with combat devices your own pentinent clerics chained and Redemptionists who came to you and burn you for your sins?

Isn't it something with Deacon oversees every temple with chain of command going through Arch-Deacons, Confessors/Preachers and Cardinals until Terra?

Isn't a comment in THAT PARTICULAR CHAPTER of codex that explained board versions of Imperial Credo describing sins and penitence Imperial Citizen can do?

What is more... warhammerish, let's say: KILL THE HERETIC or "it's rare to them (schools of thought) to be declared heretic unless they are of exceptional deviancy"?

You see, I like your vision, and I can find some points that support it, of course. Yeah, Imperial Creed chapter of 2nd ed. SoB codex is, well, kind of less Grimdark as some points later, as 2nd edition was, as I recall, something less grimdark at all (and 1st one was even less grimdark as 2nd).

But I can't take why do you saying that Julien is non-right then. It's just another interpretation of Credo, definitly not something "exceptionally deviante", why it's wrong?

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Let's imagine our board-minded modern catholic church, that not proclaim crusade for, well, five hundred years, is ecumenic, speaking loud about co-working with another faiths. Is it an image of Ecclesiarchy that is created by 2nd ed. SoB codex in your mind?

I don't think anyone has ever compared 40k's Ecclesiarchy with the current modern day Catholic church. Is that what you assumed? If so, we may have just been talking past each other all the time. :huh:

Yeah, Imperial Creed chapter of 2nd ed. SoB codex is, well, kind of less Grimdark as some points later, as 2nd edition was, as I recall, something less grimdark at all (and 1st one was even less grimdark as 2nd).

Now I'm curious; how is it less Grimdark? The descriptions of the Imperial Creed did not change between editions, and I considered the SoB codex plenty dark with its references to the Schola Progenium training teenage sex slaves etc.

But I can't take why do you saying that Julien is non-right then. It's just another interpretation of Credo, definitly not something "exceptionally deviante", why it's wrong?

Because any and all Sororitas follow a single, uniform code of faith and behaviour that is consistent among all orders, due to sharing the same heritage, the same headquarters and the same leader.

"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement."
- Codex Imperialis
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sister Superiors who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline, and brook no distraction from their studies."
- 2E C:SoB
"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer , for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?"
- 3E Rulebook
"Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure , there is only prayer and war."
- WD #211
Now contrast this to a Veteran Sororitas acting as teacher for new Novices, drinking alcohol, playing card and having a sexual relationship with another Adept, and you may see why I am shaking my head.
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I don't think anyone has ever compared 40k's Ecclesiarchy with the current modern day Catholic church. Is that what you assumed? If so, we may have just been talking past each other all the time. :huh:

Yeah. I believe we're talking about Dark Ages Catholic Church. And it was not ecumenical.
Points you cited are valid for modern Catholics. In 1893, for example, Pope quite opposed that view with his bulla: " The solicitude of the apostolic office naturally urges, and even compels us, not only to desire that this grand source of Catholic revelation should be made safely and abundantly accessible to the flock of Jesus Christ, but also not to suffer any attempt to defile or corrupt it, either on the part of those who impiously or openly assail the Scriptures, or of those who are led astray into fallacious and imprudent novelties. "
Soon enough Second Vatican Council happens with Dei Verbum. But it's 1965.
The descriptions of the Imperial Creed did not change between editions, and I considered the SoB codex plenty dark with its references to the Schola Progenium training teenage sex slaves etc.

Well, Sisters of Battle 5th edition codex I have don't include IC description, but Pentinent Engines appeared.

And as I see Schola Progenium USED TO train sex slaves when Vandir was in power, but no more.

And yes, in Witch Hunters codex (3rd ed.) it's speaks Ordo Hereticus monitors doctrinal purity; what is purity where it's thousands of different believes and even Synode can't break that strife?

Because any and all Sororitas follow a single, uniform code of faith and behaviour that is consistent among all orders, due to sharing the same heritage, the same headquarters and the same leader.

But how it's even possible if there is not strict canon in Imperial Ecclesiarchy, but thousands and thousands different schools of thought, where not one are better or worse from another? Who will oppose and in which way if Canoness of Adeptus Sororitas said she sees her way for Credo with such or other opinion?
You see, this option - about "this is impossible, because they are the same with brains cleared by one and only dogma" - fits perfectly to medieval catholic-type of Church (and 5th Edition theme, that's "superstition and dogma became rituals of worship" and blocking every critical mind, that you need to have thousands of beliefs), but you oppose it!
Now contrast this to a Veteran Sororitas acting as teacher for new Novices...

SoB 2nd ed.

Page 33. Schola Progenium description.

"Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas."

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Aenno, I think you are missing the point we have been making.

1. There are core tenets of the Imperial Creed which cannot be deviated from. As far as local customs or doctrines go, as long as they don't stray too far away from the core tenets of the Creed, they are acceptable. This is analogous to core Catholic tenets taught by missionaries interacting with local religious customs in Latin America and Asia during the colonial period. Not every aspect of WH40k is directly influenced from the Dark Ages alone.

2. Sororitas are cloistered members of numerous religious orders that have their own strict customs in regards to dealing with outsiders. This has been an accepted fact in WH40k lore for a long time,found in codices and other sources. The portrayal of a veteran Sororitas sister casually violating most of these customs bothers many fans of the "codex" Sororitas that have been described in other works.

I don't know if you've been reading too far or too little in to our posts, but it seems as if you are arguing against points we didn't make and opinions we haven't stated.

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1. There are core tenets of the Imperial Creed which cannot be deviated from. As far as local customs or doctrines go, as long as they don't stray too far away from the core tenets of the Creed, they are acceptable. This is analogous to core Catholic tenets taught by missionaries interacting with local religious customs in Latin America and Asia during the colonial period. Not every aspect of WH40k is directly influenced from the Dark Ages alone.

Ok. What tenets do you believe it is? I know what tenets were not abadonable by Catholic missionaries, I know it very well, I can list them and I know that local customs in Latin America and Asia that are interwined with catholic believes were not doctrinal.
Well, it WAS happens, but nobody really calls Voodoists catholic. No sir.
Catholic in Latin America DIDN"T pray for Quetzalcoatl or Huitzilopochtli as "interpretation of Jesus" and they don't do it today. To the 1965 year there was strict rules about doctrinal interpretations , who can do it and why. There is MODERN doctrine that Quetzalcoatl was Jesus, but it's, well, modern.
You could use pagan temple and pagan holidays to praise the Holy Lord. You could even allow your flock to use their traditional masks and vestments. But you couldn't interpret Holy Scripture as "Jesus have one, divine nature" and call it "local interpretation". Or, as an example offered GW themselves, you couldn't say "we have local interpretation that Jesus take his divinity only after death". Well, you can - but you will stop being a catholic.

2. Sororitas are cloistered members of numerous religious orders that have their own strict customs in regards to dealing with outsiders. This has been an accepted fact in WH40k lore for a long time,found in codices and other sources. The portrayal of a veteran Sororitas sister casually violating most of these customs bothers many fans of the "codex" Sororitas that have been described in other works.

And this is quite understandable. BUT.
If there is not any strict religion doctrine, if there is literally thousands, thousands and thousands doctrines that are tolerated at one time, with heresy declared only if there is really grave matter ("exceptionally deviante"), and Sororites, as some kind of Church cleaners, should know and respect all this doctrines (how will they discern heresy from legal doctrine, if they are some kind of Synode controllers?) - how can you make Sororite never take some liberal way of though?

Well, I believe nobody in sane mind will not leave this kind of sister with command of Order Militant. Julien is not. If it was me who should take a decision and if I haven't any legal mean to put her to Pentient Device, what will I do?

Julien is not usual. Kain (who is not usual himself) don't count her so. How can you, with liberal and ecumenic Imperial Credo, say Julien is impossible?

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1. There are core tenets of the Imperial Creed which cannot be deviated from. As far as local customs or doctrines go, as long as they don't stray too far away from the core tenets of the Creed, they are acceptable. This is analogous to core Catholic tenets taught by missionaries interacting with local religious customs in Latin America and Asia during the colonial period. Not every aspect of WH40k is directly influenced from the Dark Ages alone.

Ok. What tenets do you believe it is? I know what tenets were not abadonable by Catholic missionaries, I know it very well, I can list them and I know that local customs in Latin America and Asia that are interwined with catholic believes were not doctrinal.
Well, it WAS happens, but nobody really calls Voodoists catholic. No sir.
Catholic in Latin America DIDN"T pray for Quetzalcoatl or Huitzilopochtli as "interpretation of Jesus" and they don't do it today. To the 1965 year there was strict rules about doctrinal interpretations , who can do it and why. There is MODERN doctrine that Quetzalcoatl was Jesus, but it's, well, modern.
You could use pagan temple and pagan holidays to praise the Holy Lord. You could even allow your flock to use their traditional masks and vestments. But you couldn't interpret Holy Scripture as "Jesus have one, divine nature" and call it "local interpretation". Or, as an example offered GW themselves, you couldn't say "we have local interpretation that Jesus take his divinity only after death". Well, you can - but you will stop being a catholic.

From the Dark Heresy supplement Blood of Martyrs , page 18:

"The Imperial Creed is a conglomeration of native religious practises, the modifications to those practises imposed by the missionaries, and the myriad pronouncements passed down from the Ministorum’s upper echelons. As such, practices adhered to on one world may be held as abhorrent on another, depending on its own combination of native, modified and imported belief. The Ministorum tolerates a vast range of practice and belief, but there are certain tenets of faith which remain unchanged from one end of the Imperium to the other."

It then goes on to list the different tenets in great detail, but I will condense them for you here.

1. The Emperor once walked among men but He is, and always has been, a god.

2. The Emperor is the one and only god of Mankind, regardless of past faiths.

3. Heretics are bad, mutants/psykers are bad, xenos are bad

4. Everyone has a place in the Emperor's divine plan

5. Obey all orders unquestionably

Furthermore:

"So long as these essential tenets are adhered to, the prevalent faith on any given world can exhibit staggering diversity," ( Blood of Martyrs , page 18).

"Aside from these central tenets, there exists a massive body of dogma, both sanctioned and unsanctioned. Much of it is the subject of debate at the very highest of levels, while some may be prevalent for long periods before receding in relevance once more, or may be preached fervently in particular regions but barely mentioned in others," ( Blood of Martyrs , page 19).

So there are some in-universe explanations. More can be found here . If you require explanations from history, research the Virgin of Guadalupe , the conversion of Latin America , missionary work in Asia , and especially, Interpretatio Christiana .

Quote

2. Sororitas are cloistered members of numerous religious orders that have their own strict customs in regards to dealing with outsiders. This has been an accepted fact in WH40k lore for a long time,found in codices and other sources. The portrayal of a veteran Sororitas sister casually violating most of these customs bothers many fans of the "codex" Sororitas that have been described in other works.

And this is quite understandable. BUT.
If there is not any strict religion doctrine, if there is literally thousands, thousands and thousands doctrines that are tolerated at one time, with heresy declared only if there is really grave matter ("exceptionally deviante"), and Sororites, as some kind of Church cleaners, should know and respect all this doctrines (how will they discern heresy from legal doctrine, if they are some kind of Synode controllers?) - how can you make Sororite never take some liberal way of though?

Well, I believe nobody in sane mind will not leave this kind of sister with command of Order Militant. Julien is not. If it was me who should take a decision and if I haven't any legal mean to put her to Pentient Device, what will I do?

Julien is not usual. Kain (who is not usual himself) don't count her so. How can you, with liberal and ecumenic Imperial Credo, say Julien is impossible?

To answer your question, the Sororitas would only have to apply the core tenets listed above to the local variation in question. If it satisfies all of those core tenets, then it is not heresy. If it strays too far, then it is.

Sororitas "never take some liberal way" because they are trained and brought up in an incredibly rigid structure. When they aren't praying or reflecting, they are doing the Emperor's work. As had been stated before, most have little to no interaction with outsiders. Many might never even see a man, or a drop of alcohol, or witness a game of cards. Imagine a traditional group of nuns, but even more segregated, more brainwashed, and more devout. That is what the Adeptas Sororitas are.

Nowhere has anyone called the Imperial Creed liberal or ecumenical. It does not tolerate any faith other than it's own, and sometimes not even that. The Ecclesiarchy gives some latitude to local flavors of the Creed for the same reason the Catholic Church did - a matter of time/distance/communication range as well as the easing of populations into compliance.

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Points you cited are valid for modern Catholics. In 1893, for example, Pope quite opposed that view with his bulla: " The solicitude of the apostolic office naturally urges, and even compels us, not only to desire that this grand source of Catholic revelation should be made safely and abundantly accessible to the flock of Jesus Christ, but also not to suffer any attempt to defile or corrupt it, either on the part of those who impiously or openly assail the Scriptures, or of those who are led astray into fallacious and imprudent novelties. "

Soon enough Second Vatican Council happens with Dei Verbum. But it's 1965.

And why do you think the pope felt compelled to issue such bulls if there was no debate or controversy?

The flagellants I've previously mentioned originated from within the Catholic church in the 11th century, by the way. It was supported by individual ordained priests and tolerated by the Vatican up until the 14th century, when it suddenly was declared heresy.

Well, Sisters of Battle 5th edition codex I have don't include IC description, but Pentinent Engines appeared.

And as I see Schola Progenium USED TO train sex slaves when Vandir was in power, but no more.

And yes, in Witch Hunters codex (3rd ed.) it's speaks Ordo Hereticus monitors doctrinal purity; what is purity where it's thousands of different believes and even Synode can't break that strife?

Penitent Engines already appeared in the 3rd edition Codex Witch Hunters, and the sex slave example was to prove that the codex itself was grimdark in the way its contents were written , not necessarily anything that would apply to the "current" 41st millennium. I thought this was your point? That the 2E codex was somehow a more lighthearted piece of fiction?

And doctrinal purity has already been discussed, and it is explained in the 2E codex on page 37 where the book talks extensively about the Imperial Creed. We've been over this already -- it's the difference between core tenets of the creed (which are mandatory) and local variations (which are carefully watched to make sure they don't start to violate the former). Although I'm sure the Inquisition is also keeping an eye out for any sort of "strange" behaviour of individual clergy, or weird decisions by the Ecclesiarch and the Holy Synod that may hint at corruption.

The Ordo Hereticus was born as a result of the Age of Apostasy, which should give you a good idea on what exactly its members are supposed to look out for.

But how it's even possible if there is not strict canon in Imperial Ecclesiarchy, but thousands and thousands different schools of thought, where not one are better or worse from another? Who will oppose and in which way if Canoness of Adeptus Sororitas said she sees her way for Credo with such or other opinion?

Again, any and all Adepta Sororitas can trace back their teachings to the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor, and they all share the same uniform ruleset. Who is going to oppose a Canoness? The Convents Sanctorum and Prioris, respectively, depending on which major order is responsible for this Canoness.

The Sororitas actually somewhat replicate the Holy Synod in that they, too, debate interpretation in their summits -- it's just that they are (a) a much smaller group and (b) even more rigid and strict in their application of dogma, so their debates tend to revolve around matters that, for outsiders, are fairly ridiculous. For example like deciding whether or not a new vehicle should be added to the list of sanctioned wargear (-> Repressor), not because it did not perform well or it would be difficult to acquire, but simply because "this isn't how we did it for the last 3,000 years!!"

What you are suggesting, however, is not even "just" a reinterpretation of the credo of the Sororitas, but actually breaking with it in favour of pursuing a different interpretation of the Imperial Creed as used outside the Sisterhood. The Ecclesiarchy itself probably wouldn't mind (as long as this new perspective still respects the core tenets of approved faith), but for the Sororitas, this is akin to treason. I simply can't picture how a Sister could even go this far with her thinking, much less that she'd be willing to sacrifice membership in her ersatz-family of Adepta Sororitas to pursue it, becoming an outcast just because she wants to play card and sleep with men.

And needless to say, the Primary Convents certainly wouldn't approve of someone like that having anything to do with the Sisterhood's novices.

You see, this option - about "this is impossible, because they are the same with brains cleared by one and only dogma" - fits perfectly to medieval catholic-type of Church (and 5th Edition theme, that's "superstition and dogma became rituals of worship" and blocking every critical mind, that you need to have thousands of beliefs), but you oppose it!

This isn't how the medieval Church operated, and the Sisters are different from the Ecclesiarchy in their tolerance of deviations on the basis of getting brainwashed into a singular Imperial vision from infancy (in the Schola) rather than coming from a diverse collection of cultures like the priests of the church.

SoB 2nd ed.

Page 33. Schola Progenium description.

"Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas."

Except that in the Cain novel, Julien was very clearly in charge of a group of Sororitas novices.

In fact, there weren't actually any other female progena present.

Which is another deviation from codex material, by the way. In GW's version of the setting, Sororitas (or Commissars for that matter) aren't trained in the Schola; the Schola merely has Drill-Abbots (and not Sororitas or Commissars) bash a sort of general military education into a bunch of orphaned kids' heads, after which they are passed on to other Imperial organisations (like the Sororitas) to begin advanced training there .

Basically, the Schola Progenium is a 40k version of Nazi Germany's Napola .

As the 6E Codex Militarum Tempestus hints at, they even wear the same uniforms. ;)

Edited by Lynata
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Wait.
The very meaning of "ecumenical" and "liberal" when we are speaking about church is it ability to incorporate foreign beliefs and teaching until they don't violate core tenets.
"You believe cross sign should be done with two fingers, I believe that's three, and we don't agree is Holy Spirit granted by God-Son or God-Father only; but we are agree about core meaning of faith, that Jesus Christ is our God and Saviour." - that's ecumenical church. Roman sincretic paganism was ecumenical - thousands of schools of thought existed existed, and even tolerant until some breaking point arrives. And if central religious authority believes that particular school is dangerous - ooops, "Christians vs Lions". In my opinion it's something very similar to Imperial Credo.
But this very system, realistic enough, is kind of weak (well, Christians beat it in the end). You haven't full control, only you can point some general directions. Your soldiers pray Mithra, your nobles create decadent cults within basc teaching, your border tribes venerates their own cults... And you are trying just not be drown in all this. Roman failed.
Is it looks like Imperium works? Yes, if you ask me, it's definitely how Imperium works. It's how any multicultural empire works, because they're large. You can forbid your troops venerate Mithra (your colonial subjects venerate local saints), but they can just ignore you. You're not in control. All you can do - maintain illusion of control and hope everything will be OK.
Problem is Imperial Credo AESTHETICALLY looks like dark age Catholicism, with cult of sin atoinment, grand central authority, centralized and central-obiding clergy, great riches leaving local hands and so all. This kind of system never works well, that exactly system throw Europe, and especially Holy Roman Empire, into hundreds-year religion wars and strives that haven't really end until 21st century.
I believe we have some kind of agreement here, aren't we?

Edited by Aenno
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Is it looks like Imperium works? Yes, if you ask me, it's definitely how Imperium works. It's how any multicultural empire works, because they're large. You can forbid your troops venerate Mithra (your colonial subjects venerate local saints), but they can just ignore you. You're not in control. All you can do - maintain illusion of control and hope everything will be OK.

Problem is Imperial Credo AESTHETICALLY looks like dark age Catholicism, with cult of sin atoinment, grand central authority, centralized and central-obiding clergy, great riches leaving local hands and so all. This kind of system never works well, that exactly system throw Europe, and especially Holy Roman Empire, into hundreds-year religion wars and strives that haven't really end until 21st century.

I believe we have some kind of agreement here, aren't we?

Yes, I think that fits to how 40k looks like -- at least from what I have been reading. Keep in mind, though, that the Imperium has existed for far longer than medieval Europe, and the Ministorum never really "softened up" the way the real life church did, so it was able to exert far more influence on the populace and, with each generation, push the locals a little further towards the central dogma, converting by force as well as by preaching depending on the nature of resistance. Ecclesiarchal agents have "infiltrated" almost all levels of society, as every single regiment of the Imperial Guard is accompanied by a Confessor who would lead the troops in prayer.

This also means that religious conflict persists in the Imperium, of course, as the Holy Synod declares various sects to be heretical day by day, to be expunged by fire and sword. Deviant beliefs are still suppressed; some soldiers in the aforementioned regiment could continue following heretical beliefs in secrecy. For example, the background for one of the few official Guards wo men in GW's tabletop line mentioned that she was convicted for being a member of the "cult of Artemis", an outlawed sect on her homeworld (see 3rd edition Codex Imperial Guard). Sometimes, the heretic is a priest himself, who can lead an entire congregation away from the Emperor's light (in the eyes of the Holy Synod), triggering bloody retribution by the hands of the Sisters of Battle sent to execute the apostate.

But in the end, this too is but another aspect of the Grim Darkness of the setting. The Ecclesiarchy is still in control in that it can afford to suppress these deviant groups by nature of its sheer size and influence on the Imperial military. The tricky thing is becoming aware of their heresy in the first place. I would assume that the Ministorum has focused its conversion efforts on the advanced worlds, where there are more people and they are easier to reach, so that you are most likely to find "pagan interpretations" on many feral and some feudal worlds who are more tribal in nature and more difficult to control ... and who have held stronger and older native beliefs in the first place.

Edited by Lynata
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Why is it only the charge packs that are for some reason different? Why not the bolt rounds? The Chimaera APCs? The Valkyries?

Why should such a discrepancy exist in specifically this place but be absent elsewhere?

Well, there is.

Leman Russ: Mars Pattern, Phaeton, Ryza, Solar. Gryphonne IV, Styies VII

Chimera: Mars Pattern, Gryphonne IV pattern

Same for Baneblade, land raiders and such.

Sometimes these are just cosmetics, other times more armour or whatever, but that is false that there is just the charge pack case that is different.

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Of course. Romans could feed some little sect practicers to lions, because they had full Roman legions power behind. But, to be honest, it was rare enough - and Ecclesiarchy rare declare sect as heretical. That's in SoB 2nd ed codex - only for "exceptional deviance". Or, I'd add, for just because Ecclesiarch or some powerful cardinal wants it - it's not declared in codexes, but it's quite logical.

But imagine some system worked this way. You have some dire problems, and, to be honest, it don't looks well. Tyranides attack, something bad brewing in Eye of Chaos, Necrons raid Mars, Tau are little problem, but they shows frightening effeciency with swaing Imperial worlds to their causes. And you meets some humans, definite system errors (they happens, or Pentinent Engines are not needed!). They are not common, at all. They are kind of unique. For one thousand commissars trained one error occured. For one thousand errors occured one wasn't corrected. That you have one bad commissar for million ever trained; I believe Imperium trained one million commisars, what do you think? And this unique humans - some not-so-commisarish commisar, not-so-Sororite Sororite, not-so-bureucratish bureucrat - give you astonishing results.

Yes, you can just weed them. Yes, normally system will do it. But that guys and girls - they're not normal, everybody knows it! - can have some ways to solve problems you (Imperium) have. Yes, you're speaking for Imperium, you have all that flashy Rosettes.

So you will take this uncommon people and put them to your somekind of test poligon for uncommon things, such as Old Ones artefacts. You will put them to Drill-Abbots position, because you can. You will lose that discipline Cain himself met in HIS schola which he remembers. And you will see what THEIR progeny will look like. Maybe you can use them as well as this uncommon people? After all you can always bomb that Schola, Exterminate that world and kill every one progeny.

Common Sororite Cain imagine IS exactly you describing, and he MET them in his life, he fights with them on his side (and not very fond of - because they are as you describing!). And his actions was a death warrant for one lesser Order because he proves they helped heretic Ordo Heretics Inquisitor. Essencially Sororitas committed suicide there.

And he is shocked when he see Julien is not common. And even when he saw she is not common he is shocked when he realised she isn't celibate.