Well the cr90 does mention about it, but as a turret.

Why can't the cr90 fire it's turret from the aft section?

While the Raider doesn't make any mention I think that the weapon value on the fore card, is enough to know that is where you fire it from

Looking at it from a balance issue that seem powerful if the Raider could fire from it's aft

As for the example given above about the Firespray and houndstooth. Maybe if large ships had two small bases then maybe they would have a different value on there. But they only have one base.

Again though the attack value is written in the base and card.

Where as with the raider there is no attack value on the aft base nor the aft card.

So that argument is rather invalid imo.

I think the majority agree that the primary is fore only.

Isn't it enough to see the value printed on the card?

No attack value on the rear. No primary

primary, but options to put secondary

Why is any of that more likely than the following:

All ships in the game can fire their primary weapon out of any of their firing arcs and secondary weapons out of primary firing arcs. The huge ship rules point out the exceptions to this rule. The first exception for huge ships is when they have a primary turret. The second is for secondary weapons. The normal rules for firing weapons should apply if no exception has been presented in the huge ships rules.

Ok well the same can be said that each ship that can fire from these arcs also have the value printed on the base and card

Where as the huge ship it has two bases and two cards

One which has a primary value and one that doesn't

If you're going down the 'printed on it' route, then the Raider only has a single printed base (The plastic bases naturally have nothing printed on them) which has an attack value printed on it, which clearly must therefore be for the whole ship by that logic.

That's clearly rubbish, so I'd be wary of said argument particularly as it seems clear the FFG are keeping 4 values per card for aesthetic reasons more than anything else.

If you're going down the 'printed on it' route, then the Raider only has a single printed base (The plastic bases naturally have nothing printed on them) which has an attack value printed on it, which clearly must therefore be for the whole ship by that logic.

That's clearly rubbish, so I'd be wary of said argument particularly as it seems clear the FFG are keeping 4 values per card for aesthetic reasons more than anything else.

I said base and card

And technically the Raider has two bases.

It has one plate, but two bases in which it stands on which match up to each card

If you're going down the 'printed on it' route, then the Raider only has a single printed base (The plastic bases naturally have nothing printed on them) which has an attack value printed on it, which clearly must therefore be for the whole ship by that logic.

That's clearly rubbish, so I'd be wary of said argument particularly as it seems clear the FFG are keeping 4 values per card for aesthetic reasons more than anything else.

Well you only took about half of what I said

I said base and card

And technically the Raider has two bases.

It has one plate, but two bases in which it stands on which match up to each card

By plate, I assume you're talking about the ship token with the printed values and arcs.

It has two bases that hold one ship token, it has two ship cards, and it is considered to be one ship. Hell, not even targetting is dependent on the two plastic bases, but rather determined by the fore/aft division line printed on the single ship token, a distinction that is only used to determine which ship card's individually printed hull and shield values will be affected. In effect, the bases are meaningless. A way for FFG to make huge ships while still using the bases they're already making instead of creating an all new one.

Also note that these individual hull and shield values and the targetting associated with them are ALL clarified very specifically in the large ship rules, creating no confusion.

Again, if we're going by the RAW, the fore section can utilize the energy both stored on the aft ship card and printed on the aft portion of the ship token, so why can't the aft section use the primary weapon value printed on the fore section of the ship card? Nowhere is it written that it can't, nor is there any standard rule that prevents it.

So, now that we're numerous posts into this hairball of vague notions and individual interpretation, it seems all the more clear that having FFG clarify this issue is far from a waste of their time.

Any resolution to this then?

Any resolution to this then?

Not yet. They got back to me immediately on the Raider primary attack number question, and that one was a lot more obvious than this.

Sometimes they're lightning fast, sometimes questions just disappear. Mentioning the forums in a question is an excellent way to not get an answer.

You know, the easiest solution would have been to leave Huge ships out of this game altogether. It's supposed to be a starfighter dogfighting game after all. They've created Armada for gaming with ships bigger than starfighters.

Not totally convinced about that. I think the easiest solution would have been to clearly state in the rules that came with the Raider which firing arcs the primary weapon could fire from.

I also don't see why would it be overpowered that the raider could shoot its primary from any of its firing arcs. It's not that it would perform one attack for each arc. It would just be one attack (with a possible repeat with energy expense).

In fact, it makes more sense that it were like that. The whole point of the wedge-shaped imperial ships is that their shape allows the whole length of the ship to shoot at their targets. It's almost comical that a wedge shaped capital ship coudln't shoot sideways with its primary armament.

And they cannot just print the primary attack value in the aft section. Otherwise it could be understood that the ship has two primary weapons. One at the fore and one at the aft.

And they cannot just print the primary attack value in the aft section. Otherwise it could be understood that the ship has two primary weapons. One at the fore and one at the aft.

Then it would also stand to reason that when there is NO attack value on the card then there is no primary weapon on the section, and thus firing arcs are for secondary weapons only.

You know, the easiest solution would have been to leave Huge ships out of this game altogether. It's supposed to be a starfighter dogfighting game after all. They've created Armada for gaming with ships bigger than starfighters.

I prefer playing Epic with huge ships to playing Armada. It feels more like Star Wars to me.

After all this I´m looking forward to "The Gozanti-class Cruiser" witch have a firearc printed on the shipcard but no weapon (Attack) value.

On the model there is a rear mounted turret.

The Cruiser can Mount one Hardpoint weapon.

So this model i´m sure will raise a question or two.

In my oppinion the Raider-Class Corvette's main weapon will only fire out of the front arc. the fire arc's on the rear (behind the bule line) is for Hardpoints use only.

In my mind i see it like this, Main weapon is an Offencive weapon, the Hardpoints are defencive Weapons.

FOUND THIS ON A LATER PAGE......

Secondary weapons fire from firing arcs. The Gozanti has one arc only, a very broad one on the fore section. It can't fire backwards unless it comes with a fancy new card that allows it to.

Again, if we're going by the RAW, the fore section can utilize the energy both stored on the aft ship card and printed on the aft portion of the ship token, so why can't the aft section use the primary weapon value printed on the fore section of the ship card? Nowhere is it written that it can't, nor is there any standard rule that prevents it.

It can use the aft's energy because the rules explicitly state that all energy is spent from the aft section's supply unless the cards have their own energy limits (in which case they read "from this card"), but it is the aft's energy. Likewise, it's the fore's primary. And thus it can only fire from the fore. Otherwise, hardpoints could fire from any section.

The whole point of the wedge-shaped imperial ships is that their shape allows the whole length of the ship to shoot at their targets. It's almost comical that a wedge shaped capital ship coudln't shoot sideways with its primary armament.

The point is to give them overwhelming forward firepower. A side on attack on a Raider prevents it from firing half its guns at you.

You know, the easiest solution would have been to leave Huge ships out of this game altogether. It's supposed to be a starfighter dogfighting game after all. They've created Armada for gaming with ships bigger than starfighters.

Epic still has the dogfighting element just a different strategy

As crazy as it may sound, the OP has a point.

The CR90's rules specify that IN ADDITION to its 4 firing arcs, the CR90 has a primary PWT that can fire outside the printed arcs, and MUST do so only from the front section. The rules for huge ships confirm this as the exception, not the rule ("Some huge ships have a primary weapon that is a turret"). Since the only primary weapon of the CR90 is a Turret, it must follow those rules.

However, the Raider's rules specify that it has 3 firing arcs. Period. The primary weapon of the raider is NOT a turret, so it is not bound by the PWT rules for huge ships.

Primary weapons use the printed firing arcs on the ship's template. The fore/aft restriction from 'additional firing arcs' only applies to secondary weapons. And huge ships, despite having 2 bases and 2 cards, are considered a single entity.

So, ATM, there is absolutely NOTHING in the Rules As Written that prevents the raider from doing its primary weapon attack from any of its 3 printed arcs.

While that is also my interpretation, the question is blurry enough to warrant the dev's response.

Yeah, ^^this is basically what most of the pro arguments have been, just said way better

Well aside from the rules being incomplete, does it really make sense that the raider only shoot forward?

I've re-read the rule book for both the cr90 and the raider. The cr90 is explicit that its primary attack comes from the fore section. For the raider, it just talks about how the raider has 3 separate arcs that belong to the ship.

What it never talks about is anything on the lines of each section gets to perform an attack (and since the aft section doesn't have one, it can't).

So the way I see it is the ship as a whole has a primary attack and the ship as a whole has 3 arcs. For its primary, it is free to use any of the 3 (whereas the cr90 is specific to the fore section). If it has a hardpoint attached, then it's restricted to the corresponding arc. The raider rules do mention that a secondary weapon on the aft section can pick aft arc, just in case there was confusion that the hardpoint was assigned to a specific arc.

The Raider rulebook doesn't state anywhere that the Primary cannot fire from the aft arc.

It also fails to state that fore hardpoints can only fire from the fore arc. It only states that the aft can fire from either aft arc, and there they're merely clarifying how a double arc works.

If we're going by "the rulebook doesn't say you can't fire the primary from the aft" it's also completely fair to fire fore hardpoint shots from the aft. The rule restricting hardpoints to firing from their respective sections is completely absent from the rulebook.

The Raider rulebook is a bit of a mess, looking to have been hastily adapted from the CR90 rulebook. Wouldn't be surprised if it's revised in future runs. It even has the old range rules in it.

The important rules here are on Page 2.

"The front base and the front half of the ship token comprise the FORE SECTION. The rear base and rear half of the ship comprise the AFT SECTION."

"There are two Raider ship cards, one for each section. Each ship card has two sides and begins the game at full strength (i.e., with its "crippled" side facedown; for more details, see "Crippled Sectons" on page 5)."

The assumption is that the Fore Section can only fire from the fore section's firing arc, and the aft section can only fire from the aft section's firing arcs. Nowhere does it explicitly say fore hardpoints only fire from the fore. The failure to specify the arcs from which a weapon should shoot is an omission, not an intention.

If by default any weapon can fire from any section, then fore hardpoints can shoot from the back. If not, the fore primary (for the primary weapon is part of the fore card) can only shoot from the fore.

Nowhere does it explicitly say fore hardpoints only fire from the fore.

That is covered in the Huge Ships Rules, "Additional Firing Arcs" section, pg. 3. Where it explicity states that in the case of SECONDARY weapons, they must use the firing arc corresponding to the section they are mounted in.

In other words, while huge ships may have additional firing arcs, only secondary weapons are restricted by their location.

In other words, while huge ships may have additional firing arcs, only secondary weapons are restricted by their location.

Doesn't say that at all.

It says "If a section of the CR90 has a secondary weapon equipped, that secondary weapon must target a ship inside either firing arc from its corresponding section."

CR90.

The Huge Ship rules have not been updated for the Raider. Prior to that, the only primary weapon a Huge Ship has is the CR90's, which is a turret primary. That section has been directly copied and pasted into the Huge Ship rules, which are an amalgam of the CR90 and GR-75 rulebooks. To state that primary weapons can only fire from their corresponding section's firing arc when the primary weapon is a turret would just be confusing, so they had the turret section. It seems when they made the Raider's rulebook (complete with spelling mistakes) they saw a bit clarifying turrets, read "turret" and cut it, putting nothing in its place to clarify if the Raider could fire from either arc. The bit on multiple firing arcs you're quoting? The fore has a single arc on the Raider, so they rephrased it to only refer to the back in the Raider book.

You know what those rules do specify though? That a primary weapon is part of a section, not universal to both cards, as people were trying to argue a few pages back.

"When that ship attacks with its turret primary weapon, it may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc, and it measures range from the corresponding section’s base.

Corresponding section. Section specific. The aft section has no primary weapon to fire from its arcs. The primary weapon is part of the Fore.

You know what those rules do specify though? That a primary weapon is part of a section, not universal to both cards, as people were trying to argue a few pages back.

The rules don't say anything like that. Not in the CR90 rules, nor in the Raider rules, nor in the Huge ship rules.

"When that ship attacks with its turret primary weapon, it may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc, and it measures range from the corresponding section’s base.

Corresponding section. Section specific. The aft section has no primary weapon to fire from its arcs. The primary weapon is part of the Fore.

That rule is precisely for TURRET primary weapons, and belongs to the section specifically called 'TURRET PRIMARY WEAPONS'. The Raider's primary weapon is not a turret weapon.

The very existence of a specific section for turret primary weapons on huge ships is what leads me to think that 'ordinary' primary weapons still follow the ordinary rules for firing, which are that primary weapons can fire within the printed firing arc in their ship's token. The huge ship rules also state that huge ships may have different 'additional' firing arcs in their token, which the raider happens to have.

The rules don't say anything like that. Not in the CR90 rules, nor in the Raider rules, nor in the Huge ship rules.

I quoted the exact rule. Corresponding section.

That rule is precisely for TURRET primary weapons, and belongs to the section specifically called 'TURRET PRIMARY WEAPONS'. The Raider's primary weapon is not a turret weapon.

The very existence of a specific section for turret primary weapons on huge ships is what leads me to think that 'ordinary' primary weapons still follow the ordinary rules for firing, which are that primary weapons can fire within the printed firing arc in their ship's token. The huge ship rules also state that huge ships may have different 'additional' firing arcs in their token, which the raider happens to have.

The Huge Ship rules haven't been updated for the Raider, and are copied from the rulebooks for the GR-75 and CR90. Prior to the Raider, the only huge ship weapon was a turret. Having a section on non-turret primaries in the CR90 rulebook would be just confusing.

The Raider's primary, like the CR90's, is part of the Fore Section. Its corresponding section is the fore section. If primaries are not section specific then there is no rule stating the CR90 can't fire 360 from the aft.

Let me state right from the start, I don't have a Raider yet, so I don't have a copy of the Raider's rulebook in front of me, but after reading 4 pages of this thread, it's pretty clear that FFG has done a 'cut and paste' from the CR90 rules and it's turned out to be a bad cut at that. They may have to put out some form of errata to fix this, but the best idea would be to completely rewrite the Raider's rules from scratch in order to get it right. And while they're at it probably edit the Huge ship rules to bring them into line with the new ships. Remember, they were originally written when there were only two huge ships in the game, and future huge ships possibly weren't even on the drawing board at that stage. Just a twinkle in a designer's eye.

I think we can all agree that what we've got to work with so far, is an unclear document that's been poorly adapted to fit the new ship. So in the meantime, you should all stop arguing that the "rulebook doesn't say you can't" and try and apply some basic logic.

In this game, if something doesn't sound right, it probably isn't.