The B-wing has taught us that slow ships with 1 AGI should not be loaded down with upgrades, as they too frequently can be overwhelmed. The Punisher, of course, has a similar defensive profile, numbers-wise, but has a Boost, allowing for a useful positioning game and Autothrusters, both of which should help it live longer.

With that preface, how many points are too many, and subsequently make the ship too big a target? This problem is compounded by the fact that the TIE Bomber is still hanging around, and is the ship of choice for a budget build. The Punisher brings a lot of bells and whistles that are individually a good price, but add to the ship'separately cost on top of the necessary ordnance load. Consequently, you have to find some happy medium between "not sufficiently more capable than the Bomber" and "giving too many easy points to the opponent". Any ideas?

no idea

seems the ballpark is going to be 37-40, however, out of simple necessity for a named pilot (really, the only real thing of merit the Punisher has over the bomber) + the tools to use them

the punisher's arc dependent 2-dice primary is inexcusable, so not running a lot of ordnance is out of the question.

With Deathrain, that means 2 mines + extra munis at least, and most likely a system slot (either sensors or scopes)

Deathrain (munis, conner, conner) [36], lump on scopes for 37 or sensors for 39. The hope is that the sheer, joust defying prowess of the nets will overcome the ship's inefficiency.

With Redline, that means 1 torp + munis + at least 1 missiles, FCS, and possibly thrusters.

Redline (munis, plasma torps, cluster missiles, FCS, thrusters) [40]. The hope is that the sheer offensive prowess of the ordnance lets him do enough damage before he becomes pretty laughable (2 dice ).

thrusters don't make the Punisher soontir-status, but they do more than double your evades (37.5% to 75%, 100% if focused) and make them far more survivable at range 3 against the multiple sh*tty attacks that usually strip 1-agility ships like piranhas strip flesh.

hovering around 40 points gives you room enough for 5 academy ties or 3 AC tempests, providing the consistency that the punishers lack, or 1 elite interceptor + doom shuttle (40 for redline, 35 for soonts/carnor, 24 for doom = 99)

40 is what my builds keep coming to. It just feels too heavy, but lighter builds feel like they're wasting potential.

I'm kind of comparing these to 37 point Delta Squadron pilots with HLC. It's that range of points and that sort of damage output. Defensively it's strong, and it has better PS and more support equipment.

Deathrain is the pilot I certainly mind spending points on the least, because I feel like he hard-counters so many strong ships, but then you could start seeing 4x TLTs, and he's not going to pull his weight against those.

40 is way heavy but hard to avoid. Truthfully I am struggling to find where to use this thing.

I hope this means that nobody flies it.

Mwahahaha, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA #kiddingnotkidding #justkiddingforrealsies #jklololol

the thing with Redline (FCS, Plasmas, Munis, Clusters, thrusters) [40] is that we don't have a stable point of comparison to other ships.

Redline is one of very few ship that can modify the TL-spend missiles, and he's one of even fewer that can set up those shots independent of action (FCS, making the Red 2-turn not so crippling and letting you stack focus with the re-rolls). The torps run parallel to modified HLC equivalent (plasmas, + potential extra shield damage), the CM are a whole other ballgame.

I suppose AC Advance have approximate expected value with Clusters, but dice spike and low agility ships are going to be hurting when redline gets a volley off

I'd say Vessery would be the closest thing to Redline (though then Vessery has to be enabled by another ship...such as Redline ) at 42 with just a HLC. Facing the two together could be incredibly painful for low ship-count builds.

Problem now is "will we be more consistent than Vader?" That's a painful question to ask

For Deathrain, it's conner nets. Conner nets just completely transcend what we currently have by neutering basically every 2-ship ship in the game. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the K-wing's staying power (that crew slot for int agent and turret for auto-blaster make it very useful long after the mines are spent)

Redline I sort of understand. He's a "big gun": his modified warheads hit harder than HLCs, but are limited in number. If the damage is worth the limited shots and different defensive profile he's worth it.

Death rain is harder because I want to give him missiles, as he already has EM, I should get a conventional attack boost as well. Maybe that's wrong, though. Maybe:

Deathrain 26

Conner Net 4

Seismic Charge 2

EM 2

Accuracy Corrector 3

37 points

Corrector let's him use actions for setting up bomb drops while retaining a bit of firepower. Net hoses positional ships. Seismic hoses swarms. You get two of each. I don't even hate stripping him down further and dropping AC. I'm not sure he really needs much else because his ability gives him so many options for deployment.

could be AC is the way to go, though I hate making him less hilarious with conner's consistency is probably more important

though I'd def make those seismics more conners at least until the meta becomes more varied (and, since the Raider just came out, there's gonna be a whole lot of vader...)

Deathrain has seemed pretty worth it at the 37-40 pt range. You'll probably have to bring with him something that helps but up a swarm, but lots of options there. I have not tried Redline yet, but he comes to about 37-40 pts as well. I do even think a 63 pt Decimator is going to be good for some Punisher builds.

On Nets and Deathrain:

I feel like 2 drops is probably enough. With no actions and the auto damage, it seems like you won't need more against most lists. I guess if we get into a multi-ace meta, 4 drops is going to be pretty handy to have. I was assuming more diverse lists with the Seismic.

Has the full range of cards that comes with the Punisher been spoiled yet?

Is there a possibility of a new system upgrade that bring hitherto unconsidered capabilities to the table?

0. You're just buying Cluster Mines.

connor net and Ion Pulse missiles on Deathrain with someone else to give him another action makes him the ultimate control ship.

the moment you need someone else to do anything, he ceases to be the ultimate anything

28 or less. This way you can fly one with 6 TIE Fighters.

28 or less. This way you can fly one with 6 TIE Fighters.

So...

One Cutlass with EM and Conner Nets....

And six Academy TIEs!

After using redline couple times on vassal and playing against him, I am starting to like him less and less.

First off he gets expensive fast which has been pointed out above.

You have to load him up to Make him worthwhile.

Once you do that, you need to have something to protect him, or at least just as scary.

Doesn't leave you with many ships.

I keep coming to the same conclusion when squad building with him, either a bunch of ties or two other ships

In the end every game I've seen him in he's died usually very fast.

(I was happy one game I actually fired off every missle before he died lol)

But the 1 agility is easy to pound through

Especially with swarms

I honestly have to say flying against and using him I am far fr impressed

Deathrain 26

Conner Net 4

Seismic Charge 2

EM 2

Accuracy Corrector 3

37 points

Corrector let's him use actions for setting up bomb drops while retaining a bit of firepower. Net hoses positional ships. Seismic hoses swarms. You get two of each. I don't even hate stripping him down further and dropping AC. I'm not sure he really needs much else because his ability gives him so many options for deployment.

40ish sounds about right. That way you can fit in a souped up Soontir Fel (or Vader) and two Academy Pilots.

If anyone can make a double punisher list work, it will be Bio .....

If anyone can make a double punisher list work, it will be Bio .....

One at 40 and one at 39 l;eaves room for an accuracy corrector advanced. And that's not a bad escort.

Naked shuttle is also possible but that is questionable.

If anyone can make a double punisher list work, it will be Bio .....

Perhaps combo Deathtrain and Proton Bombs with Redline and Adv Homing missiles.

Shields? what are they ?

( Rhymer would arguably be be a better partner for DT for this kind of build tho)

Is Redline's effect a test to see what effect a potential ordnance fix may have?

People always tout the not spending of a target lock as a potential fix for missiles and torpedoes and that is what Redline does after all.

Is Redline's effect a test to see what effect a potential ordnance fix may have?

People always tout the not spending of a target lock as a potential fix for missiles and torpedoes and that is what Redline does after all.

it's a reasonable hypothesis

it seems FFG have tried to be quite conservative with their ordnance fix - preferring a number of small improvements to a single all-encompassing ordnance fix

presumably to see what works best so they can expand on it in later releases

If anyone can make a double punisher list work, it will be Bio .....

Trust me, that is definitely not on my list of things to do.