Help I am a fairly new GM to DH2E and find that even using the threat level tables, the PCs just demolish what comes in their way. I'm at a bit of a loss. Even an elite NPC seems to pose no threat to them.
I don't want to kill them, but I'd be ok if they got dinged up once in a while.
Suggestions?
Use tactics - make them prepared, and have them used everything the players do.
Grenades, snipers, feints, overwatch, suppression, fire...
All of these combined with good use of terrain and attacking from several directions can make anything powerful and threatening: I once had a Chaos Space Marine player killed by a bunch of lowly gangers with autoguns, 1 long-las and a single grenade in a game of Black Crusade.
This works even better if you can lure the players into thinking themselves invincible - they'll take risks and be easier to trap.
Agreed, tactics are the way to go. Let your players blast their way through a few combat counters, then hit them hard with organized enemies. Eldar rangers in ambush while Dire avengers keep them pinned, Arbiters throwing a stun grenade at the beginning of an encounter, or an organized cult using military tactics.
Also, don't forget to play to your players weaknesses, if they favor single target damage, then hit them with swarms, if they prefer AoE damage, then hit them with big creatures.
The players have fate points, don't be too afraid of beating them up from time to time, the PC's aren't the only ones who can play smart.
Help I am a fairly new GM to DH2E and find that even using the threat level tables, the PCs just demolish what comes in their way. I'm at a bit of a loss. Even an elite NPC seems to pose no threat to them.
I don't want to kill them, but I'd be ok if they got dinged up once in a while.
Suggestions?
Let´s get a little bit into the details, shall we?
How many PC are there in your group? What are they, what tools-of-the-trade do they tot around and what exactly bothers you?
Hint: Numbers
In a situation where the characters have the Initiative (like, they are sneaking up on guards or such) it is better to heighten the number of opponents a little. SUPRISE means they attack on first round with no retilation AND are likely attack first on the round to follow. This means, they might easily be downing a number of NPC equall to (PC group minus 1), perhaps more.
Thereby, plan more opponents. This does NOT mean having them sticking all a the theme three-meter spot. That will simply lead to your PC tossing a grenade or make use of spray attacks. Have a group of up to three standing guard somewhere, and two other groups within earshot. That kind of "layered guards" is actually used to make sure that only one group gets suprised (and wiped), the other two are warned, are able to give warnings themselves and get ready.
oh! and if you can give us your "next mission" and the enemy type of it, we could try to give you some ideas what to do next time
I would always try to play the NPCs realisticly. It is absolutly realistic that a group of Acolytes would murder the crap out of a small group of poorly armed gangers. If the players encounter such a situation I would always let them win easily. But as stated above, if they feel invincible after a few encounters like this, let the enemy be prepared. Set an ambush, use Autoguns for Pinning fire. Let the enemy set up a heavy stubber. Organised cults can easily aquire one or two sniper rifles / long las. Use them.
My favorite tactic for organised opponents (I like to use: 11 cultists with Autoguns, 2 with Sniperrifles, 2 with 1 heavy stubber):
Try to surprise them. In the surprise round. Snipe one or two players (the ones that look most threatening) and pepper the area around them with full auto fire (forcing them to roll WP-20 or jump into hiding). After that, let 1/3 of the enemies fire every round (so the roll to snap out of Pinning is still hard), 1/3 (including the snipers and the heavy stubber) use overwatch to kill the crap out of every player who carelessly returns fire and 1/3 of the enemies try to flank the PCs (through their surperiour knowledge of the place) to drop some grenades (firebombs are incredibly easy to get) or just shoot them to death from behind.
Of course the enemy stays in cover, maybe they even brought some reinforced crates along (AP 7 plus the armor of the cultist of 3, and the toughness of 3 equals AP 13 for the cultists).
Also of course the cultist try to ambush the players in an area where the PCs have no to almost none cover. Don't forget that cover degrades.
That tactic can easily wipe out starting characters and is easily adaptable for stronger Chars by giving the cultists better weapons, armor, ammo and BS.
I would always try to play the NPCs realisticly.
Absolutely this.
If the PC's are taking on a bunch of underhive gangers, remember that the PC's are fighting on the other guys' turf. Don't let the PC's always be the ones getting the drop, because the gangers know where the best spots are, should have sentries out looking for intruders and if it looks like a serious incursion on their territory is occurring, they should be planning a big counter-offensive; that means throwing numbers, the best tactics and all the big guns they can muster.
If the PC's are romping a cult nest, remember that the cult is led by someone with the savvy to convert and recruit however many members he has (which should be a lot ; if it's not, then why are the PC's even there? It's not like a small cult would ping on the Inquisitions radar). This leader will have resources, cunning and (above all) numbers. A small group of PC's might hold of a dozen or so cultists, but after several waves of a dozen cultists, the PC's are going to be running low on ammo at the very least...
How Subtle are the PC's being? Are they going in guns-blazing, rattling the civilians and generally causing a ruckus? If so, what are the local authorities doing about these outsider hooligans? The PC's may be agents of the Inquisition, but they aren't Inquisitors themselves (well, without knowing more, I suppose they might be). Even if they are, unless they have some way of getting word off-world quickly, a cocky law-enforcer might just decide to bang them up for being a nuisance. Let them deal with a few Arbitrators and wrestle with the morality of it.
There's plenty ways to challenge your players and as someone mentioned above, the PC's have Fate Points to burn...they can suck up a few heavy encounters every now and then!
Often the GM has so many NPCs to keep track off that they run the risk of being mannequins standing around in the open.
Just start to use suppressing fire, dodge, aim, defensive stance and other actions when applicable. Also have the NPCs go to cover. Don't be afraid to change around on their skills/talents if the standard template you are using doesn't exactly fit on the NPCs you have in mind.
If you really want to make sure the PCs wake up, know that you cant dodge an attack if your surprised, so have a sniper open up on them at some point. And once surprise round is over its at dodge at -30 until they locate the source of the attack.
Often the GM has so many NPCs to keep track off that they run the risk of being mannequins standing around in the open.
Just start to use suppressing fire, dodge, aim, defensive stance and other actions when applicable. Also have the NPCs go to cover. Don't be afraid to change around on their skills/talents if the standard template you are using doesn't exactly fit on the NPCs you have in mind.
If you really want to make sure the PCs wake up, know that you cant dodge an attack if your surprised, so have a sniper open up on them at some point. And once surprise round is over its at dodge at -30 until they locate the source of the attack.
Dodge at -30 until they locate the source of the attack? Where's that from?
How hard is it to "locate the source of the attack"? Could you figure it out from the direction of the bullet or from someone's shouted warning?
I'm hoping that it never specifies you have to see them yourself, or my blind PC is pretty much f****d
Often the GM has so many NPCs to keep track off that they run the risk of being mannequins standing around in the open.
Just start to use suppressing fire, dodge, aim, defensive stance and other actions when applicable. Also have the NPCs go to cover. Don't be afraid to change around on their skills/talents if the standard template you are using doesn't exactly fit on the NPCs you have in mind.
If you really want to make sure the PCs wake up, know that you cant dodge an attack if your surprised, so have a sniper open up on them at some point. And once surprise round is over its at dodge at -30 until they locate the source of the attack.
Dodge at -30 until they locate the source of the attack? Where's that from?
How hard is it to "locate the source of the attack"? Could you figure it out from the direction of the bullet or from someone's shouted warning?
I'm hoping that it never specifies you have to see them yourself, or my blind PC is pretty much f****d
Dodge example modifiers on page 105.
I guess making an awareness roll with modifiers depending on environment would do the trick and make you realize where the attack is coming from. :-)
Using tactics to make enemies more dangerous (the famous 'Tucker's Kobolds' example) is good advice, but even so, WH40KRP doesn't really lend itself to a classic D&D -style focus on combat. When I started my DH1 campaign, I had high hopes of introducing recurring villains who would bedevil the PCs over the course of their long career- only to have each and every one of them killed the first time they meet.
The trick that I have settled on to mitigate disappointingly undramatic villain deaths is to treat the big cult/conspiracy/event at the center of the mission as the real 'Boss Monster' to be slain, and accept that the individual NPC bad guys are just components of that threat rather than the focus in and of themselves.
Help I am a fairly new GM to DH2E and find that even using the threat level tables, the PCs just demolish what comes in their way. I'm at a bit of a loss. Even an elite NPC seems to pose no threat to them.
I don't want to kill them, but I'd be ok if they got dinged up once in a while.
Suggestions?
Let´s get a little bit into the details, shall we?
How many PC are there in your group? What are they, what tools-of-the-trade do they tot around and what exactly bothers you?
Hint: Numbers
In a situation where the characters have the Initiative (like, they are sneaking up on guards or such) it is better to heighten the number of opponents a little. SUPRISE means they attack on first round with no retilation AND are likely attack first on the round to follow. This means, they might easily be downing a number of NPC equall to (PC group minus 1), perhaps more.
Thereby, plan more opponents. This does NOT mean having them sticking all a the theme three-meter spot. That will simply lead to your PC tossing a grenade or make use of spray attacks. Have a group of up to three standing guard somewhere, and two other groups within earshot. That kind of "layered guards" is actually used to make sure that only one group gets suprised (and wiped), the other two are warned, are able to give warnings themselves and get ready.
Well let's see I have 8 players.
1 Adeptus Arbites
1 Adeptus Ministorum
2 Adeptus Mechanicus
2 Astra Telepathica
2 Imperial Guards
They all have pretty standard equipment except one of the Imp Guards...(long story and not canon at all, but he has 4 arms. 2 of which have power fists. He also uses Swift Attack on his first attack. He is crazy powerful)
Right now they are going into a rebel armoury and I suspect what I am going to do is have the rebels "aware" that they are coming and maybe have the main hallways fork into 3 and have a turreted gun facing down each hallway.
Other than that I may have some of the rebels sneak in the back way and try to surprise the characters.
Thoughts?
Also with this many players, initiative becomes a PITA so what we've started doing is playing in a boardroom and using a white board to roll character init at the start of the session. This remains for the whole session and I just roll NPC init separately.
Any other suggestions on large groups?
They are pretty good for listening.
We also use miniatures to get a feel of where everyone is in relation to the action.
Well let's see I have 8 players.
1 Adeptus Arbites
1 Adeptus Ministorum
2 Adeptus Mechanicus
2 Astra Telepathica
2 Imperial Guards
They all have pretty standard equipment except one of the Imp Guards...(long story and not canon at all, but he has 4 arms. 2 of which have power fists. He also uses Swift Attack on his first attack. He is crazy powerful)
Right now they are going into a rebel armoury and I suspect what I am going to do is have the rebels "aware" that they are coming and maybe have the main hallways fork into 3 and have a turreted gun facing down each hallway.
Other than that I may have some of the rebels sneak in the back way and try to surprise the characters.
Thoughts?
Indeed there should some sort of blockage down the hallways to halt the players progression. You can consider having a ventilation system in the ceiling where gas can be released from to create zones of toxic breathing or even ducts that are big enough for enemies to crawl through and drop down from (and once the PCs are aware of them they can do similarly).
As the PCs will be cramped in the hallway they are also vulnerable to simple frag grenades.
If the rebels have smart people and they know the building well, there is no reason not to have some smart defences.
Thanks Alox. Good ideas. I know these might seem basic to most people, but I am fairly new to GMing and def. new to DH
Are you sure you got the rules right? Rulebook says that your players can withstand TWO encounters equal to their level, not one. I usually make only one encounter per session, so I simply multiply the threshold by 2, distract 1-5 and there it is.
Actually what I did, (and for the most part it went over well), is I used tactics for the first time and also outnumbered them like crazy. So even though they seem to roll really well and overpower most things, there were 3 occasions where they were hurting units...and that was a glorious thing! Although I did intervene once, when I rolled so good on one attack that it killed a toon and ripped his arm off. He did lose the arm, but I fudged the death.
Couldn't be happier with all of the advice I got here.
Thanks.
I'd work on weakening them a bit before the encounter and holding the pressure. Give them a test that attacks their fatigue and before they can rest hit them with an enemy. Several stats will be fatigued and almost everyone will be at -10 to all tests.
Then, to help with balance, I build a potential 2 part battle. Send the regular threat lvl of enemies and play as normal and if they are still killing it then "SUDDENLY"...
Backup has arrived, a sniper is in position, the boss kicks in a special talent that summons daemons or brings the dead to life, a command order causes grunts to throw inferno grenades or molotov cocktails setting fire to your cover. Really, anything you can think of to take the advantage away from the players and re-energize the battlefield so players must to adjust their usual strategy.