I found it very interesting that Jay Little locked a thread as soon as possible once Peacekeeper took up the fanboys challenge to layout a argument against WFRPv3. Granted peacekeeper used a bit of sarcasim.

Peacekeeper said:

Fine. Here it goes.

It doenst appeal to me cause I find it unappealing. It looks clunky, derived from various other games and like it will be a game for rules lawyers. I think it steps on the GMs and players imagination too much and doesnt fulfill the flavor of the warhammer world as I see it.

Shuffling through cards, reading specialized designer dice with symbols instead of numbers and being forced to follow a party mood-o-meter (if used and not discarded from the box) make the game less appealing to me.

Im an old school role player, been playing for nearly 25 years (as Im sure many others have as well), I like books and dice, not cards and novelty items.

I think the new edition is not friendly to newer players to RPGs who will be (possibly) daunted by the sheer number of cards, tokens, dice, books and counters used in just the BASIC rules and I will probably have to interpret their dice rolls for them everytime they roll.

I like the fact that in the game as it currently stands (2E) I dont have to deal with luck, time, situation and what not all with different dice and codes, but just apply modifiers as I see needed in % + or - modifiers. I can just say "oh thats a +10 modifier" or "you et a +30" instead of sayng "you get a pink love dice, a yellow luck dice, a teal "Go Jackonville Jaguars" dice and a plaid chaos dice." And while after several sessions and readings of the rules Im sure for most that may become second nature, but most of my players dont invest as much time into learning rules as I do, they learn the basics. "Oh, I roll this and try to roll lower then this, got it!"

And yes, I like the old game for the memories, fondness and attachment I have for it.

So I hope it fails as I hope all things I am against fail.

After this post Peacekeeper was attacked by fanboys that said nothing constructive or reasoned and Jay Little locked the thread, I guess he really does not want discussion outside of:

WOW , The greatest game in history. Jay Little is the new Prophet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect this will be the next thread to be locked or deleted.

Well, Jay made it clear that he closed the thread coz of personal abuse and not critique of the game.

There have been many other 'critiques' of the game which didn't cause threads to be closed.

There have been some utterly mindless and stupid and just plain misinformed attacks on the game that have not caused threads to be closed. It's quite apparent that this forum generally tolerates good and bad critique: stupidly positive critique and stupidly negative critique, and everything in between.

So, I'd suggest your theory as to why the thread was closed is entirely wrong.

Personally I thought it was getting personal and that locking it was justified. I also think you'll note there were plenty of poeple who critiqued the idea earlier in the post, myself included.

I think it was justifid too, not because of to much criticism but because it turned towards a bar room brawl

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

The thread was locked for two main reasons:

1. There were ad hominem attacks against other forum users.

2. There was obscene and derogatory language.

Healthy discussion, expression of opinion (both positive and negative), constructive criticism, and speculation are all good, valuable contributions to the forums.

Profanity, insults, trolling, and personal attacks are not acceptable behavior on these forums.

I cant understand the point of flaming on forums at all, its like football hooligans the nerdrage version...

And I bet it would never have been that nasty if all the same people were in the room together, but the internet seems to give a form of (yes you can be the worst mouther you can be) attitude...

Civility and discussion of the points, not the persons posting them is the only valid way to approach an discussion....

Thanks or the kind thread in response sumobandit. But I am not without sin. I have been quite adamant about my dislike of the current direction of the setting/game.

And while I feel Farin over reacted a bit to my reply, I kind of understand. But on the same note a previous poster asked for us to give reasons we dislike the game/direction as we currently see it, and when I did I was called various mispelled insults. Which is no fun.

I dont think ill of Jay or anyone on this forum or involved with this game.

I do think locking the thread was uncalled for, as I didnt have a chance to reply.

But that is minor, if Jay, who is the moderator feels the thread was going the wrong way, then good on him on following through on his thoughts.

As a last thought, I want thos who enjoy the game to enjoy it, but Id rather no one like it. But if you do,like the hell out of it.

PS, Im pretty sure i didnt use any ngative terms directed at anyone.

ynnen said:

Can we ask people to remove inane, stupid and witless dross from there posts if we find it offensive?

Armrek said:

Quoted purely by accident, honest

SumoBandit said:

lolno. Look at your own statement:

SumoBandit said:

The thread wasn't locked after Peacekeeper's post, it was locked after a number of people started throwing around borderline PAs and it went off-topic. Peacekeeper and others have made far stronger attacks on v3 than in the locked thread that the mods have ignored.

This really isn't an issue.

Peacekeeper_b said:

i agree, i overreacted a bit, but i do feel that your attitute toward the game of " but Id rather no one like it." is rude and shows no respect to ANYONE in the development process. ON THAT NOTE (as sour as it is) i must say that you bring very valid points to the table and that we have ALL learn lots from your posts, its hardcore RPer's/ fans like you that show us younglings what things where like, even if I or someone else disagree with you, your still more experienced and deserve more respect then i showed, im sorry for overreacting and i should have worded my post differently, but my point stands

Honestly, people. This whole v3 thing looks more like your personal doom, than just a game which might or not be enjoyable even to you, as you haven't seen it nor played it for howsoever significant time to make a doom out of it.

I think that ynnen was absolutely right to lock a 'flamy' thread, and yes, I think that other similar threads should be locked and posts deleted (but sometimes it's very difficult to moderate all forums at once, I reckon, so certain stupid/inane/offensive posts unfortunately yet inadvertedly remain untouched).

I hate to say it, but... grow up already.

Ynnen, I'm just waiting for v3 from you, then I will have opinions.

Well, I see it as much like my attitude to sporting teams. I want the ones that I dont like to lose and mine to win. Its not that I dont respect the designers or players or anything.

How many times do you hear a song or see a movie trailer and thing "egads, I hope no one really likes that?" or something similar.

But anyway, I digress.

Cheers.

Peacekeeper_b said:

valid point! and ill be honest, i cant stand country music....but i respect everone that sings it and everyone that listens because thats what they like. I LOVE deathmetal, hardcore, screamo music, its my passion and i love it....others dont and thats fine. you can hate the new system ALL YOU WANT i dont care.....just be respectfull

Yeah that thread wasn't closed because of Peacekeeper (who always contributes actual REAL debating to a thread).

It was because of all the posters who go "You DON'T like this game? You're such a nerd." or "You LIKE this game? You're a man-child."

I'm a hypocrite, though, because I suck up their trolling bait and respond with more vitriol, which is stupid.

I apologize.

I stayed away from that thread because I watched it go way out in left field and into totally inappropriate zone. I knew it would be locked.

If you also notice, people are able to report these threads to the mods to be locked. I would not be surprised if someone alerted Jay to the thread, Jay found it to be as insane and insulting as I did, and he closed it.

There's plenty of other threads going on that vent a lot at third edition WHFR, and they are still unlocked. I don't think it has to do with criticism, but more with respect and decency.

SumoBandit said:

This post may or may not be completely off-topic, but I would like to express my annoyance at the ignorance the KH boards are shown, mod-wise. We had like 6 flame wars a couple of months ago, and ONE mod stepped in on two seperate occasions and told us to 'simmer down'. No threads were locked, no justice was had. No flaming was stopped.

Knowing that the mods are actually active on other boards bothers me somewhat.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I'm a grognard too, and I think I share much of your assessment of where this game is going. I also had similar doubts about v2, but after it was published, I think that BI did a good job of maintaining the WFRP that I loved. I understand the compromises they had to make given GWs zeal for ruining what I liked about the Warhammer World.

So, I'm curious how v3 will turn out. I'm not sure what all the hoopie dice and cards will accomplish, and I share your skepticism from what you said in the locked thread. But I am hoping that the new system will be innovative and bring something new to roleplaying, and, more importantly, I hope that they will develop the Warhammer World along the same lines as TEW did and v2 (more or less) tried to do.

I also imagine that if FFG does do these things (which, as said, I doubt), you will come around, unless you have other motives for your grognardism than just the love of the old game.

Mikael Hasselstein said:

After seeing the initiative system, I have my doubts Ill ever come around.

Its amazing, for not being a board game, they sure use a lot of card board, well, boards. Ive dealt with card systes before (Torg, Masterbook and so forth), dice pool games (Shadowrun, D6, Deadlands) and funky coded dice (WEG Legends) before, but none of them ever really inspired or hooked me (Masterbook's masterdeck came the closest).

My complaint, when put rationally and politely and respectfully, is quite system. I have yet to see anything in these rules that does anything the game has promised. I havent seen any mechanic that speeds up play, eases role playing or motivates party cohesion.

In fact, to me, it does the opposite. It bogs down play with code breaking and reading, disrupts party cohesion by punishing the team for not agreeing quickly and forces you into a role instead of enabling role playing.

I would get into it, but I have go to work soon but am currently in the midst of writing down my complete thoughts on the game so far to make my posts more detailed and less arbitrary.

Other then to say this, the WFRP system is a multi award winning system that has sold out numerous times in various incarnations, including 1E, 2E and Dark Heresy and Im sure soon to be Rogue Trader.

Peacekeeper_b said:

That's curious, you know, because the new initiative system, together with the dice pool and the way they intend to treat distances in combat are the points that appeal me the most from the new mechanics.

My feeling is that we have become used to fixed initiative systems (I've played RPGs for around 20 years now and most of them had fixed initiative systems) and that's the main reason why some of you consider it heretical... but, with my experience using a similar system in Descent, I'm pretty sure it will work...

There are a lot of reasons that support such an initiative system over a fixed initiative one; I won't repeat them here because they have been discussed in their own thread.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well, I think it's a bit early to really say how the system will play. At least I'm curious to see all these innovations to an RPG in play and feel they'll refresh the RPG industry and attract more gamers.

1. About your statement that the game "...disrupts party cohesion by punishing the team for not agreeing quickly..." that's for the GM to decide. In my campaigns (and those of my friends), we regularly force characters to act quickly, otherwise they'll lose part of their turn or the GM will take a decision for them as if they got in a panick... Let's face it, if combat decisions are too slow, the game stalls and becomes boring... still, that's my group's style and WFRP3 gives me nice mechanics to represent all of this, you don't have to use it if you don't want but they are there.

2. You also state that the game "...forces you into a role instead of enabling role playing"... I think this is an undeserved statement that could be used against any RPG ever written... why does WFRP3 force you into a role?... The same could be said of any RPG... Example: WFRP2, your starting career is Rat Catcher... does that mean you "are forced into the role of a Rat Catcher"?... Seriously, I don't understand what you are trying to convey or achieve with this statement...

I love WFRP2 (I also own Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader will soon arrive). They are great games. Now, what I don't see so clear is whether there was much more to explore with the old WFRP2 rules... I maybe would have liked a book about Greenskins, but that's about it... Also, there were some problems in WFRP2:

1. The "machine gun" caster... which WFRP3 seems to address in an elegant and imaginative way.

2. Item prices in WFRP2 were ridiculous... I hope they will solve this in WFFRP3.

3. The critical wounds system was very weak and only affected you when you were already dead... WFRP3 seems to address this.

4. Nuances in action resolutions lacking (this can be said of almost any RPG)... New dice system opens a huge number of possibilities, where you can still fail the action but obtain some advantage out of it, or have success but suffer some problem.

5. I could go on and on telling you about all the house rules I had to implement for my WFRP2 campaign but don't want to bore you people to death.

To finish my post, I'm happy FFG is creating a new edition of WFRP:

1. I feel it will revive the game and bring in new gamers.

2. I'm sure I won't like many things in the official versions. I have even made already house rules proposals for skills and random char generation, but that's a natural thing with RPGs, everyone adapts them to their style.

3. I love the extras. I have always enjoyed handing out maps, objects, figurines and whatnot to my players. I think it helps people get in the mood for gaming. I also don't consider them necessarily a sign of an RPG turning into a boardgame.

4. I am pretty certain that this game will rock and that the naysayers will be proved wrong.

My complaint, when put rationally and politely and respectfully, is quite system. I have yet to see anything in these rules that does anything the game has promised. I havent seen any mechanic that speeds up play, eases role playing or motivates party cohesion.

In fact, to me, it does the opposite. It bogs down play with code breaking and reading, disrupts party cohesion by punishing the team for not agreeing quickly and forces you into a role instead of enabling role playing.

Cogollo pointed out some good points. It think it's really just a matter of opinion/view point. For example, I agree that I think the dice pool will indeed be slower than d100, especially at first since people aren't familiar with it.

However, to refute your point about not doing what it promised ... the dice pool *will* provide a lot more information in a single roll than a roll of a d100, which is one of the things 3e is promising. The card format *will* make the skill/talent/action-specific rules easier to find and use during the game, and it *will* make adding in and subsequently finding information from expansions easier. And so on, so I believe your assertion, that isn't doing what it is promising, to be mostly incorrect.

I also think (since I'm an optimist) that most people will pick up the various dice symbols relatively quickly, even if they don't specifically know what the effect is for a particular action. So, I think the delay to recognize the roll will end up minimal, but the interpretaion might take slightly longer. You'd spend that time with a d100 roll, though, as you'd have to make additional rolls to make up for the increased information (such as damage amount, etc). So I don't see it as being significantly longer after a few sessions.

As for disruption of party cohesion ... it sounds like all the game is doing is trying to help the GM punish groups that are already disrupted. After all, the tension meter doesn't rise if the party is working cohesively, it doesn't come into play at all in those cases. Instead, it is a tool the GM can try to use if the group isn't working well together and arguing, to remind them they need to work together. No hard and fast limit is set on the GM for when he should use this tool, but as Cogollo mentioned, you can get combats really bogged down while people hem and haw and argue. With the less rigid initiative structure, this is a method of which to the GM can impose some limits to keep the game moving.

I'm also not sure what you meant by forcing players into a role, rather than roleplaying, so I can't attempt to offer a counterpoint to that.

Farin said:

Well, so you think that you owe respect to a representative of a company which shows not much respect to us? I have nothing personal against the developers BUT they are employed by a company which killed 2nd edition without giving any hint that they are the whole time in secret develope the 3rd edition. That was unfair and sneaky and they showed no respect to us, the players who liked 2nd ed and hoped for more stuff to come out. I show respect only to people which are respectable. FFG must first earn my goodwill again. If they achieve this, then maybe I will show respect to them, but not before.

superklaus said:

i strongly disagree, you should show respect no matter what, you can disagree with them all you want but you should do it in a respectful manner. if you show no respect for people regardless what they have done, you will burn all your bridges and life will be hard for you....but i digress ONWARD TWARD THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD! *points sword upward* CHARGE!!!!!!!

dvang said:

Role, as in you are the fighter so you fight, you are the priest so you heal.

What is typically going to happen is the PCs will be expected to react as a well oiled prepared team. The initiative will be rolled, the fastest PC will get 3 or 4 successes, allowing the combat monster troll slayers to strike first (at elf speed) and the last slot pf initiative will be left for a healing spell at the end of the round. Repeat until all monsters are dead.

Your characters will be expected to "fulfil" thier purpose and not be there as a role playing extension.

Farin said:

oh by all means show them respect. I dont ever think I didnt show them respect, I may have been dismayed and disappointed in FFG and said how I felt about them, but it was never in any intent to be disrespectful.

Otherwise I would bring up once again how they released two sourcebooks for 2E earlier this year and bilked $70 or so dollars out of us all the while not even hinting at the fact that they were prepared to sacrifice 2E to The Changer of Ways as they felt 2E was filled with the rot of the Lord of Decay all the while the Keeper of Secrets was writing a 3E. No wonder why we are all Bloodthirsters in rage.

But as was mentioned several times now, I digress.

Jay was right in locking the thread. Dissent must be crushed. And Descent must be a RPG!