Edit: Double post

My problem with the Defender is the cost. For 30 pts I get a Delta Squadron Pilot with the following stats.

PS 1

ATT 3

AGI 3

Hull 3

SH 3

And no upgrades.

Compare that with 30 pts for the Rebels. Blue Squadron Pilot

PS 2

ATT 3

AGI 1

Hull 3

SH 5

with FCS, Ion Cannon, and a Hull Upgrade.

place these two ships one on one and the B will destroy the Defender more times than not. The Defender is supposed to be the best snub fighter in the galaxy, it should fly circles around the b-wing but it doesn't it needs some help.

Just my 2 cents.

place these two ships one on one and the B will destroy the Defender more times than not. The Defender is supposed to be the best snub fighter in the galaxy, it should fly circles around the b-wing but it doesn't it needs some help.

It needs help, just not as much as most people here seem to think.

I can say that most fixes here are losing the focus.

The Defender is the most advanced starfighter ever produced by the Empire and did not see high production due to its extremely high cost.

It was designed as a fighter that could easily fit in the role of an interceptor, light bomber and what not.

It featured twin ion cannons, 4 laser cannons, shields projectors that were matched by no other fighter, tractor beam and two warhead launchers, plus with even more speed than the Tie Avenger.

It had only one weak spot and it was its aft blind spot.

With that said, this ship needs only a title fix that adds the POSSIBILITY of adding things to it just like the X1 title.

Its price is well high already, its dial is ridiculous unless the modification slot is taken by Twin Ion Engine Mark 2, and still there is blahblahblah about cannons and stuff, when this ship is out maneuvered by advanced sensors-mounting pieces of junk like the B-Wing?

I mean seriously, are you kidding me?

Add system upgrade to the upgrades bar and boost to the actions bar, and we're talking business.

To finish this off: why the Aggressor costs 36 and has EVERYTHING (dial, system upgrade, etc) and the defender doesn't, since it has even two points less in the stats? (Hull and Shield)

My two cents.

It was designed as a fighter that could easily fit in the role of an interceptor, light bomber and what not.

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

To finish this off: why the Aggressor costs 36 and has EVERYTHING (dial, system upgrade, etc) and the defender doesn't, since it has even two points less in the stats? (Hull and Shield)

Because the generic Defender is 2-3 points too expensive for what it does.

I need statistical backing for your claim it's a mary sue. Something quantifiable, a formula would be preferred.

It was designed as a fighter that could easily fit in the role of an interceptor, light bomber and what not.

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

I can see your point, in fact IGs are extremely boring for me to play.

I'm not asking for an overpowered ship, I'm just saying that pieces of junk like B-Wings can maneuver better with their advanced sensors just like A-Wings can do with their dial.

The defender is right in the middle of this, and that's pretty annoying considering the cost of his ship compared to the rebel ones.

To finish this off: why the Aggressor costs 36 and has EVERYTHING (dial, system upgrade, etc) and the defender doesn't, since it has even two points less in the stats? (Hull and Shield)

Because the generic Defender is 2-3 points too expensive for what it does.

My problem with the Defender is the cost.

I'm the opposite. The Defender is SUPPOSED to be the most expensive fighter. My problem is that it's stats don't currently JUSTIFY it's cost.

My problem with the Defender is the cost.

I'm the opposite. The Defender is SUPPOSED to be the most expensive fighter. My problem is that it's stats don't currently JUSTIFY it's cost.

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

Well, I disagree. That's like saying a...I dunno, let's say Bugatti Veyron, is boring because it's the best at everything. Is the Veyron a Mary Sue? No. It's a real car. It's the best at everything for a reason. Because they spend a ridiculous amount of money making it that way.

The Defender is the Veyron of Star Wars starfighters.

@DarthEnderX... I can agree with that. For the Cost it should have the ability to add the things a B-wing can and have more action economy, instead the B-wing outclasses it in every way except the 4k turn.

I need statistical backing for your claim it's a mary sue. Something quantifiable, a formula would be preferred.

You need statistical backing for a strictly qualitative concept?

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

Well, I disagree. That's like saying a...I dunno, let's say Bugatti Veyron, is boring because it's the best at everything. Is the Veyron a Mary Sue? No. It's a real car. It's the best at everything for a reason. Because they spend a ridiculous amount of money making it that way.

The Defender is the Veyron of Star Wars starfighters.

I have a Nissan Leaf (okay, actually my wife has it) that's better than a Bugatti Veyron in a couple of ways. It has more cargo space, it has a back seat that easily accommodates two passengers or (critically, for my family) a toddler in a carseat, and it's approximately five times as efficient to operate.

And that's an on-point comparison, because the person I was responding to mentioned that the Defender ought to be able to function as both a bomber (whose primary attributes are interior capacity and durability on a cheap chassis, like my cheap electric hatchback) and an interceptor (whose primary attribute is speed, like your Veyron).

The TIE Defender is a Mary Sue because its initial depiction in the X-wing sims made it literally the best at every task in that game, and because its defenders here and elsewhere keep wanting it to be the best at every task in this game.

I need a repeatable test that we can use to qualify anything as "mary sue" or not.

I have a Nissan Leaf (okay, actually my wife has it) that's better than a Bugatti Veyron in a couple of ways. It has more cargo space, it has a back seat that easily accommodates two passengers or (critically, for my family) a toddler in a carseat, and it's approximately five times as efficient to operate.

Okay, fair enough, but by comparison the Defender is also a terrible cargo hauler compared to, say, a Bulk Freighter.

There are obviously starships that are better than the Defender at a lot of things(cargo capacity, troop transport, etc.), it just happens that none of those things are represented in this game. And that's not the Defender's fault. The Defender just happens to be the best ship in the Star Wars universe at most of the things this game allows you to do. And it should reflect that, but it doesn't.

And even then, there ARE things in the game that it's not supposed to be the best at. Like stealth, ordinance capacity, firing arcs. Other ships ARE better than the Defender at those things. And the game accurately reflects that. But the things it's SUPPOSED to be the best at, it currently isn't. And that's not okay.

I think it's pretty clear that the designers just preferred the Phantom over the Defender.

C'mon, not only Cloak, but 4 natural attack, Systems (Without Target Lock!) and crew and high-PS generics?

No prizes for guessing which computer games they preferred.

To be fair, after playing around with double delta+ace, those agility 3 tanky types make darn good blockers, naked or with hull upgrade. What they should have been is the only PS1 with an EPT slot.

I need statistical backing for your claim it's a mary sue. Something quantifiable, a formula would be preferred.

You need statistical backing for a strictly qualitative concept?

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

Well, I disagree. That's like saying a...I dunno, let's say Bugatti Veyron, is boring because it's the best at everything. Is the Veyron a Mary Sue? No. It's a real car. It's the best at everything for a reason. Because they spend a ridiculous amount of money making it that way.

The Defender is the Veyron of Star Wars starfighters.

I have a Nissan Leaf (okay, actually my wife has it) that's better than a Bugatti Veyron in a couple of ways. It has more cargo space, it has a back seat that easily accommodates two passengers or (critically, for my family) a toddler in a carseat, and it's approximately five times as efficient to operate.

And that's an on-point comparison, because the person I was responding to mentioned that the Defender ought to be able to function as both a bomber (whose primary attributes are interior capacity and durability on a cheap chassis, like my cheap electric hatchback) and an interceptor (whose primary attribute is speed, like your Veyron).

The TIE Defender is a Mary Sue because its initial depiction in the X-wing sims made it literally the best at every task in that game, and because its defenders here and elsewhere keep wanting it to be the best at every task in this game.

I understand what you're saying, but your example doesn't work because you're comparing different functions. The Bugatti is a faster, better means of transport. It performs its primary function (determined by design) better than the Nissan performs that same function.

The TIE Defender is simply 'better' than many other Starfighters in a variety of combat-specific ways, excepting ordnance and perhaps armour. It's faster and more manoeuvrable than ANY other small ship in Star Wars, has 4 cannons and 2 ion cannons, tractor beam and heavy shielding. They were also flown by the most elite Imperial pilots. None of that currently translates into X-wing miniatures game.

I need statistical backing for your claim it's a mary sue. Something quantifiable, a formula would be preferred.

You need statistical backing for a strictly qualitative concept?

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

Well, I disagree. That's like saying a...I dunno, let's say Bugatti Veyron, is boring because it's the best at everything. Is the Veyron a Mary Sue? No. It's a real car. It's the best at everything for a reason. Because they spend a ridiculous amount of money making it that way.

The Defender is the Veyron of Star Wars starfighters.

I have a Nissan Leaf (okay, actually my wife has it) that's better than a Bugatti Veyron in a couple of ways. It has more cargo space, it has a back seat that easily accommodates two passengers or (critically, for my family) a toddler in a carseat, and it's approximately five times as efficient to operate.

And that's an on-point comparison, because the person I was responding to mentioned that the Defender ought to be able to function as both a bomber (whose primary attributes are interior capacity and durability on a cheap chassis, like my cheap electric hatchback) and an interceptor (whose primary attribute is speed, like your Veyron).

The TIE Defender is a Mary Sue because its initial depiction in the X-wing sims made it literally the best at every task in that game, and because its defenders here and elsewhere keep wanting it to be the best at every task in this game.

I understand what you're saying, but your example doesn't work because you're comparing different functions. The Bugatti is a faster, better means of transport. It performs its primary function (determined by design) better than the Nissan performs that same function.

The TIE Defender is simply 'better' than many other Starfighters in a variety of combat-specific ways, excepting ordnance and perhaps armour. It's faster and more manoeuvrable than ANY other small ship in Star Wars, has 4 cannons and 2 ion cannons, tractor beam and heavy shielding. They were also flown by the most elite Imperial pilots. None of that currently translates into X-wing miniatures game.

You are referring to the old EU Defender.

FFG's Defender can be found in the AoR RPG core rulebook- less agile than a tie fighter but more than an Xwing, as durable as a Tie Bomber, and with more weapon systems than any one pilot can use... but no tractor beam, even though a fighter-scale tractor beam was released in a later book.

FFG might not be living up to the fond memories of the tie defender from the Xwing games, but at least they are internally consistant.

If that's true, then there is still a problem: Barely anyone likes flying TIE Defenders. Most people here recognise TIE Defenders from the computer games, so why implement a more obscure design?

I need statistical backing for your claim it's a mary sue. Something quantifiable, a formula would be preferred.

You need statistical backing for a strictly qualitative concept?

Right: it's a Mary Sue. It's the best at everything! That's boring, and people who want to make it a Mary Sue in X-wing are trying to make it more boring.

Well, I disagree. That's like saying a...I dunno, let's say Bugatti Veyron, is boring because it's the best at everything. Is the Veyron a Mary Sue? No. It's a real car. It's the best at everything for a reason. Because they spend a ridiculous amount of money making it that way.

The Defender is the Veyron of Star Wars starfighters.

I have a Nissan Leaf (okay, actually my wife has it) that's better than a Bugatti Veyron in a couple of ways. It has more cargo space, it has a back seat that easily accommodates two passengers or (critically, for my family) a toddler in a carseat, and it's approximately five times as efficient to operate.

And that's an on-point comparison, because the person I was responding to mentioned that the Defender ought to be able to function as both a bomber (whose primary attributes are interior capacity and durability on a cheap chassis, like my cheap electric hatchback) and an interceptor (whose primary attribute is speed, like your Veyron).

The TIE Defender is a Mary Sue because its initial depiction in the X-wing sims made it literally the best at every task in that game, and because its defenders here and elsewhere keep wanting it to be the best at every task in this game.

I need a repeatable test that we can use to qualify anything as "mary sue" or not.

As in random select tie defenders and compare their performance to random selections from other fighters?

If that's true, then there is still a problem: Barely anyone likes flying TIE Defenders. Most people here recognise TIE Defenders from the computer games, so why implement a more obscure design?

Presumably because it has less moving parts to balance- making it less of the One -Wing to Rule the All for what they hope is the right price, (and remember thaat it came out at the same time as the phantom, so balance problems were inevitable) and more of an elite that has tradeoffs.

Who should win in a fight- Marrak Steele in a tie defender, or the crew of the Ghost from Rebels? if the answer is Steele, the Tie Defender from the games is too much for a game that is barely fitting the Ghost in.

It is pretty obvious why they won't see a ton of play, compare the following:

Delta Squadron Pilot (38)

TIE Defender (30), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

vs

Patrol Leader (40)

Or even:

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

vs

Bounty Hunter (33)

For only two points you can upgrade a fat defender to a turret that spits out nearly the same attack and has a whopping 16hp! For three points you can upgrade a generic defender to a generic bounty hunter which has an aux arc and more health. The defender depends way too much on its dice and not maneuvering, which I don't find as satisfying compared to interceptors, where my input matters a great deal in how the game turns out. When the dice are good a defender can outlast these but I've had defenders die after only receiving two attacks. Poof! There goes 1/3 of your list, try to recover from that...

Delta+ Hull upgrade: 3 agility, 7 health

Naked bounty hunter: 2 agility, 10 health, large base.

The Defender can bank slower, can turn much sharper if it's willing to take the stress, and can take actions out of a K turn, while being able to block anyone except a critically hit craft or by someone who "wasted" a sensor slot on blocking.

Who should win in a fight- Marrak Steele in a tie defender, or the crew of the Ghost from Rebels? if the answer is Steele, the Tie Defender from the games is too much for a game that is barely fitting the Ghost in.

The answer to that question would have been Maarek Stele in a TIE Defender regardless of what the second choice was.

Who should win in a fight- Marrak Steele in a tie defender, or the crew of the Ghost from Rebels? if the answer is Steele, the Tie Defender from the games is too much for a game that is barely fitting the Ghost in.

The answer to that question would have been Maarek Stele in a TIE Defender regardless of what the second choice was.

And there's your repeatable Mary sue test. If he can out-sue another sue, he's a sue.

And there's your repeatable Mary sue test. If he can out-sue another sue, he's a sue.

Yeah, but it has nothing to do with the TIE Defender. Maarek Stele can win against everything in a humble TIE Fighter.