Sorry, I typed "Limited", but it should be a Modification.

If it's a modification, I don't think it should have those icons in the corner then, because those usually also denote card type.

It should just say "Your action bar gains the boost and evade icons." and "Your upgrade bar loses it's cannon and missile icons."

x7 Defender: Defender only Title, 0 points

"When attacking or defending, you may turn 1 focus result into a hit or an evade"

The Deltas love it because they dont care if they stress themselves on the turns anymore. Vessery loves it because his free TL synergises with it. and Rexler loves it because it means he can save his focus for the flips.

It's no Ion cannon fix, but it fixes fickle green (and red) dice all around. what are the boards' thoughts?

Very neat idea. I like how it improves all the existing TIE Defenders. It's so simple, but so profound. Kudos to you, sir.

I'd rename it.

Emperor's Finest

Title

TIE Defender Only

0 Squad Points

When attacking or defending, you may change one Focus to a Hit or an Evade.

I'd run that with a Lone Wolf Rexler all the time.

x7 Defender: Defender only Title, 0 points

"When attacking or defending, you may turn 1 focus result into a hit or an evade"

The Deltas love it because they dont care if they stress themselves on the turns anymore. Vessery loves it because his free TL synergises with it. and Rexler loves it because it means he can save his focus for the flips.

It's no Ion cannon fix, but it fixes fickle green (and red) dice all around. what are the boards' thoughts?

Very neat idea. I like how it improves all the existing TIE Defenders. It's so simple, but so profound. Kudos to you, sir.

I'd rename it.

Emperor's Finest

Title

TIE Defender Only

0 Squad Points

When attacking or defending, you may change one Focus to a Hit or an Evade.

I'd run that with a Lone Wolf Rexler all the time.

Emperor's Reach, you mean.

Sorry, I typed "Limited", but it should be a Modification.

If it's a modification, I don't think it should have those icons in the corner then, because those usually also denote card type.

It should just say "Your action bar gains the boost and evade icons." and "Your upgrade bar loses it's cannon and missile icons."

Done.

That upgrade is insane undercosted.

That upgrade is insane undercosted.

It's actually not too bad on the cheapest generic. But in addition to the Defender's touch of the Vader problem (generics are rubbish, named pilots are almost right) the title also has to handle the fact that high-PS ships get a lot more value out of boost and barrel roll than low-PS ships.

That upgrade is insane undercosted.

I dunno. The things it adds are worth, like, 8 points. The things it takes out are worth about 4. So that's a cost of 4. And then it tries to fix the Defenders overcost by 7 points. I'd say it's about 1-2 points undercosted, not insanely.

The things it takes off aren't worth anything.

Defenders are not seven points overcosted.

The things it takes off aren't worth anything.

If the Heavy Scyk charges 2 points to add each of those things, then they're worth 2 points to get rid of them. Cardaan Refit conforms to this.

Agreed. It's probably worth 0 points. Which would be about a 4 point discount.

Well if we're going to use heavy scyk as our guide:

Engine upgrade: 4

Issard: 3

Negative cost 3

So it's a gain of ten and a loss of two.

Eight free points is an Emperor Palpetine worth of discount.

That's insane.

The things it takes off aren't worth anything.

If the Heavy Scyk charges 2 points to add each of those things, then they're worth 2 points to get rid of them. Cardaan Refit conforms to this.

The A-wing was off by about 2 points, and the missile slot made for an elegant solution. The Havy Scyk title needed to cost 2 points to make HLC Scyks the price FFG wanted to charge. It's a coincidence that they're the same price, and it doesn't mean that taking two slots away from the Defender is worth 4.

Defenders are not seven points overcosted.

Agreed. It's probably worth 0 points. Which would be about a 4 point discount.

Defenders don't need a 4-point discount. They're not as badly balanced as most people think--certainly not as bad as the TIE Advanced was. MajorJuggler and I have disagreed about the Defender's value since before it was published, and even he doesn't think it's off by 4 points.

A cannon slot is worth a lot for the Defender, functionally speaking, so I'd weight it at more than 2 points for the slot. Maybe 3. The missiles slot is maybe worth 1 for the Defender. The Modification slot is worth a lot, especially with the TIE Mk II upgrade, so using that up is worth several points.

Boost is worth 3 maybe (Engine Upgrade charges a bit extra since it goes on anything), Evade as an action (not like Issard, who gives an extra free action) is worth maybe 1, and then there's the negative cost listed at 3.

Net gain is ~7, net loss is ~7, taking into account opportunity costs.

23 points for a bare Delta is stupidly good. So goos it's unbalanced.

The A-wing was off by about 2 points, and the missile slot made for an elegant solution.

Did it? Taking away a ship's options to give it the 2 point fix it needed? Why not just make a title card that was -2 points and didn't do anything then?

23 points for a bare Delta is stupidly good. So goos it's unbalanced.

Shh we wants our all defender meta, we needs it.

The A-wing was off by about 2 points, and the missile slot made for an elegant solution.

Did it? Taking away a ship's options to give it the 2 point fix it needed? Why not just make a title card that was -2 points and didn't do anything then?

Because the Test Pilot upgrade is a title.

Even with a free EPT slot and -2 cost adjustment people still don't think the A is competitive. Some people can't be pleased.

If the autofocus title us considered a reasonable fix, why are the flavor mods including "overprice" bonuses? Didnt I already fix that by putting "the Empier's Finest" in the cocpit of that Delta defender?

Trading the mod slot and missile for evade and barrel roll might be reasonable. Id love to see a "hit with cannon, cancel all but 1 hit (looking at you Mangler) and get a free primary attack" mod or EPT as well, but it shoyld be reasonably ppriced for iggy to abuse.

Builds should be Triple Finest Deltas w/ hull upgrade; Super Rexler with Finest, Lone wolf, Stealth Device, heavy laser; Vessery with Finest and linked guns, with TL support Ships.

Lets aim to make these builds good but not OP.

I mentioned that I liked the auto focus idea, but thought it was undercosted at 0 points.

I mentioned that I liked the auto focus idea, but thought it was undercosted at 0 points.

Edit: for completeness, can you break it down by card cost + overcosted ship rebate?

From a Triple Delta standpoint, each point it costs is one less hull upgrade the squad can bring...

x7 Defender: Defender only Title, 0 points

"When attacking or defending, you may turn 1 focus result into a hit or an evade"

The Deltas love it because they dont care if they stress themselves on the turns anymore. Vessery loves it because his free TL synergises with it. and Rexler loves it because it means he can save his focus for the flips.

It's no Ion cannon fix, but it fixes fickle green (and red) dice all around. what are the boards' thoughts?

Change it to "Once per round, you may..." and I think we have a winner.

Every single shot on defence alone makes Luke a tough nut to crack as-is. With three dice (even without the attack), it'd raise Defenders to godlike durability, so with the attack combined it'd almost certainly have to cost something. That seems less optimal.

Once per round, you're getting very close to a free Evade every turn! Some ways, it's better: It works even when stressed, which is awesome! But in others, it's worse: you still have to actually roll an <eye>, which is isn't guaranteed, even on 3-4 dice. Call it a wash, with some lovely stress-mitigation for a ship that (sans a 1pt mod) hurts without it. Over the course of a game, expect it to save another 1-2 HP for you under decent fire; but it adds up quickly if you can end up in an aces duel.

Better yet: It's better on a low-PS ship than a high-PS, because they can defend against incoming fire and then spend the token if they need it at the other end. On the other hand, Rexler probably just shrugs and fires his gun with it, then burns Focus to inflict super-crits, and hopes it's enough to mitigate being squishy for a round. Give him Lone Wolf and he's terrifying, though.

I think this all works out rather fabulous as a middleground. Whatchathink?

I mentioned that I liked the auto focus idea, but thought it was undercosted at 0 points.

As the resident expert in superdefenders, what do you think it (Empire's finest/autofocus) should cost?

Edit: for completeness, can you break it down by card cost + overcosted ship rebate?

From a Triple Delta standpoint, each point it costs is one less hull upgrade the squad can bring...

It's really hard for me to settle on a price I like for this one. In effect, it's sort of like Lone Wolf, which is 2 points, but with a big conditional trigger. 3 points seems fair on the generics, given their poor overall efficiency, and I like the idea of 3 Deltas with these. 4 makes me feel a little safer, though, and for 4 points it's still better than any other 4 point upgrade you can get on Defenders.

Let's see:

Rex 37

HLC 7

Lone Wolf 2

Stealth Device 3

Title 4

53

Vessery 35

VI 1

HLC 7

Title 4

47

I would play the hell out of this squad, and I think it would be a kick in the teeth to a lot of different lists. At 4 points it prevents easy inclusion of ordnance or mods. You've got to make some decisions, which is good. Is it too powerful? I don't know. 2-dice ships are going to struggle to ever hurt it, and that feels a little wrong. I like Reiver's idea of making it once per turn, to limit the utility against swarms and to emphasize the usefulness on the low PS ships as Reiver suggested.

I would feel pretty good about Reiver's version at 2 points.

2 points for 1/round, plus 1 point for tie mark2, gives a Triple Delta list that really doesnt care about stress. Sseems reasonable from here...

I feel like the similarity to Luke's ability warrants this particular fix being the "Emperor's Reach" title, which should be unique, no? In that case I could easily see it without once-per-turn.