Now that the Raider is releasing, Lord Vader is an option again, and we know that he can theoretically fill in for Soontir Fel.

However, we do not yet have an Optimized Vader, making this comparison problematic.

What insights do you have to the character?

I don't think an EU is a must now instead I'd go with:

Vader (29)

Predator (3)

Title (0)

ATC (1)

Then when available mkII engine (1)

With his action economy he's very good.

What insights do you have to the character?

He is more forgiving than the Emperor.

(Moff Jerjerod)

He is willing to accept apologies.

(Captain Needa)

He is committed to promoting from within.

(Captain Admiral Piett)

He is tolerant of failure.

(Admiral Ozzel)

I've got more, but I think I'll stop there...

how exactly is he not optimized?

He's way more customizable than Fel. He has an EPT, Missile, and Mod slot that can all be used to counter things the rest of your squad is weak against.

I'll echo Hobojebus' build for a basic combatant that doesn't pile on the points, but there are really so many options.

Title + ATC should be auto-include.

I often run him on Vassal with VI + EU to shut down Soontirs and Vaders.

Predator and Lone Wolf are very appealing to me, but I feel like you'd have to make a PS bid to ensure you don't get outmaneuvered late-game. And if you think of that PS bid as a sort of 2-3 point "tax" on Pred or LW, then VI with a maxed 100 pts seems like good value.

I don't think an EU is a must now instead I'd go with:

Vader (29)
Predator (3)
Title (0)
ATC (1)
Then when available mkII engine (1)

With his action economy he's very good.

Are you using MKII for protection against stress?

how exactly is he not optimized?

He's really really good, don't get me wrong. There's just not yet a "Best" build for him, like there is for Fel.

Vader's action economy really isn't all that

The ideal is 3 "actions" (feels action + ptl action + focus, Jake's focus action + boost/roll action + ptl action) which Vader only approximates with predator (minus all the flexibility of having a free focus/boost-roll)

This doesn't mean he's bad, it just means that if he boosts/rolls and doesn't arcdodge everything (or can't, stupid pwts) he's going to be worse off than a thruster ship (except against his crew clone, his shields help there)

Vader's advance is more a blunt instrument of destruction than soontir's twitchy interceptor. It does more reliable damage with ATC and predator (no ptl dependency) and it has some shields to shore up guaranteed damage. It CANNOT be maneuverable while also being tanky (no thrusters or third "action")

I found this out playing versus Vader supported by palpy in a shuttle. 2 tlts one turn followed by conners and a range 1 Miranda shot got him off the table real quick.

Title + ATC should be auto-include.

I often run him on Vassal with VI + EU to shut down Soontirs and Vaders.

Predator and Lone Wolf are very appealing to me, but I feel like you'd have to make a PS bid to ensure you don't get outmaneuvered late-game. And if you think of that PS bid as a sort of 2-3 point "tax" on Pred or LW, then VI with a maxed 100 pts seems like good value.

I don't think an EU is a must now instead I'd go with:

Vader (29)

Predator (3)

Title (0)

ATC (1)

Then when available mkII engine (1)

With his action economy he's very good.

Are you using MKII for protection against stress?

Yeah you can k turn with less worries now as the TL will always give a crit and pred helps with primary attacks you just have to worry about defence.

Vaders pretty tanky with two actions so anything that helps keep him stress free is a plus.

Vader's un-stressing action economy is sort of the key. Fel and Jake have to worry about double stress situations.

Best standard build for him is Predator, Title, ATC, and Engine, hands down. Add a missle if it synergizes with your build.

Vader (Lone Wolf, TIE/x1 title, Advanced Targeting Computer, Proton Rockets, Engine Upgrade) 39 points

I'll echo the sentiment that EU is not mandatory. In fact, I've found running Stealth or Hull (haven't tried Shield but same idea) has been very useful to make him extra tanky.

Also, the ATC is nice, but running a free Accuracy Corrector and always Focus + Evading is very consistent. Could combine with something like Ruthlessness for extra damage output.

I've played around with EPTs other than Predator. Calculation is fun when combined with the ATC, letting you throw out lots of crits. Adrenaline Rush makes pulling a K-turn less dangerous, could be key at the right moment.

I think I prefer him riding shotgun than actually flying.

I'll echo the sentiment that EU is not mandatory. In fact, I've found running Stealth or Hull (haven't tried Shield but same idea) has been very useful to make him extra tanky.

On high PS ships that rely heavily on positioning to survive and thrive, the Boost action gives you SO much value though! Dodges arcs, gets you into Range 1, gets you out of Range 3 (running away), help you re-position on non-combat turns, etc. Only having Barrel Roll as a re-positioning tool is brutal imo.

I like to think of it this way; The first arc you dodge with Boost is essentially giving you most (if not all) of the value that Hull or Stealth would grant you, by negating entire attacks.

I'll echo the sentiment that EU is not mandatory. In fact, I've found running Stealth or Hull (haven't tried Shield but same idea) has been very useful to make him extra tanky.

On high PS ships that rely heavily on positioning to survive and thrive, the Boost action gives you SO much value though! Dodges arcs, gets you into Range 1, gets you out of Range 3 (running away), help you re-position on non-combat turns, etc. Only having Barrel Roll as a re-positioning tool is brutal imo.

I like to think of it this way; The first arc you dodge with Boost is essentially giving you most (if not all) of the value that Hull or Stealth would grant you, by negating entire attacks.

Agreed, in general.

However, Vader comes equipped with a Barrel-Roll, which is superior to Boost for Arc-Dodging (and costs no additional points, to boot), so I can see why people are more willing to part with the Engine Upgrades.

Unrelatedly to that, here's a wonderment:

Could PtL and TIE mk.II do well on Vader? He won't need to triple-action as often as Fel or Jake, as he gets the double without stress, but the stress-relief options are quite lovely (even though he doesn't have a green Turn).

The green turns our kind of key on Soontir and Jake though. Also, they have 4 and 5 straight green respectively to bug out when needed.

While EU and Predator are awesome on him, I honestly think you can just run Vader + ATC for 30 points. In this configuration his really just a straight up jouster, but that also gives you 70 points to fill in some nasty flankers. You'll be hard pressed to find a better use of 30 points in the game.

But, Engine Upgrade on Vader is just so much fun. Though, I tend to prefer Outmaneuver on Vader.

FWIW, Vader also likes Lone Wolf. Depends a lot on how the rest of your list is flying, but given how often he's the last man flying (when Lone Wolf just works all the time, no matter what), it can pay for itself easily, there. And it's often easy enough to fly Vader as a distant flanker.

Also: totally thematic, we've all seen the season 2 premiere of Rebels, amiright? ;-)

feels action

I remember that scene.

Engine. Without the ability to fly like Fel (Boost + Barrel) he can end up just as dead just as fast. Fly him like an interceptor.

sometimes, auto-correct leads to wonderful things

Engine. Without the ability to fly like Fel (Boost + Barrel) he can end up just as dead just as fast. Fly him like an interceptor.

Soontir Fel +PtL is limited to his greens so that he can shed his stress, meaning he actually has fewer options in the planning phase than Lord Vader, and is therefore more easily blocked.

He makes up for this with the double-action mobility options, but Vader with EU actually keeps up there as well.

Doing the double-mobility action leaves Fel with a Focus, and Vader without, but Vader comes with two action-free Evade tokens on-board (they're called "Shields"), so this is mitigated somewhat.

Moreover, Vader's damage is more action independant than Fel's

With either Accuracy Corrector or Advanced Targeting Computer, your expected damage is 2 at range 2-3 with no additional modifiers, whereas Fel's is 1.5.

ATC does require the usage of an action to change targets, but that isn't often in a two-ship metagame

Vader with just the ATC and Engine Upgrades are also 1 point less than the Bloody Baron build.

The problem here is defense.

Bloody Baron has 4 agility dice, Autothrusters, great arc-dodging, and the potential for up to 3 defensive tokens, and 3 hp.

Boost Vader has 3 agility dice, great arc-dodging, the potential for up to 2 defensive tokens, and 5 hp.

Boost Vader, who is more mobile and more damaging than the Baron, has some serious downsides on that front.

said downsides really come to light when he can neither outmanuever nor outdamage things

Having flown him BEFORE the ATC, I strongly, strongly disagree.

Now, I did give him Outmaneuver to help with damage output. You can cite all the defensive strengths of Fel, but all of that can easily be made moot. Yes, Autothrusters significantly cuts down on the number of times he will be one shot. But Vader is still much, much harder to oneshot.

And I have actually flown against 4 Advances before. They can be very, very annoying to take down.