In the Force power "Enhance" there is an upgrade that allows the player to make a Force Leap with Athletics in order to jump to any location within short range.

I have three questions:

#1: Can't a player with a really good Athletics do this anyway? (Or a lucky one).

#2: What would the Difficulty be for an Athletics check for a person who has this and for another one who does not / is not Force-sensitive.

#3: Can the Short range be upgraded to higher than medium?

You are misunderstanding.
The Force leap control upgrade allows you to spend a force pip to leap to anywhere in short range as an action.

The adding your force die to you athletics check is a separate ability.

You are misunderstanding.

The Force leap control upgrade allows you to spend a force pip to leap to anywhere in short range as an action.

The adding your force die to you athletics check is a separate ability.

Ah, so I see. Then it became a lot better since you basically can't fail it (if you decide dark side pips are acceptable).

But is the Range upgrade meant solely for Force Leap or the power in general? And my other question still remain: is Medium range the maximum you can leap with this upgrade?

But is the Range upgrade meant solely for Force Leap or the power in general?

Roll your force dice along with your Athletics roll AT MEDIUM RANGE

Commit a force die to increase your brawn AT MEDIUM RANGE

Doesn't really make sense.

And my other question still remain: is Medium range the maximum you can leap with this upgrade?

Edit: That's assuming the newer F&D version doesn't specifically prohibit multi-activating Range. It may be some time before they errata AoR, so until then the F&D version should probably be considered the 'most correct version'. Just saying.

By the way, I like to flavor the horizontal "force leap" as "force speed" -- if I'm not crossing a chasm or jumping over my enemy's head or something, I generally assume my character kept his feet on the ground and just ran really fast .

If you have the pips to do it, you can activate Range multiple times, each time boosting your range by 1. So if you generate 2 pips, you can go to Medium range (1 pip activates the jump, 1 pip increases the range). With 3 pips, you can jump to Long range. With 4, you can hit Extreme, and that's as far as you can go, since there's no range band beyond Extreme.

Edit: That's assuming the newer F&D version doesn't specifically prohibit multi-activating Range. It may be some time before they errata AoR, so until then the F&D version should probably be considered the 'most correct version'. Just saying.

Capped at Medium. been that way since AoR. Might've been that way since AoR Beta, but I'm too lazy to pull that book out of storage.

Ah, so I see. Then it became a lot better since you basically can't fail it (if you decide dark side pips are acceptable).

But is the Range upgrade meant solely for Force Leap or the power in general? And my other question still remain: is Medium range the maximum you can leap with this upgrade?

The force powers are like talents, okay, which means it's reeeeeeeaally important that you read the power upgrade descriptions in the text and not just glance at the description in the box on the pretty picture.

The range upgrade description (pg 289) reads:

"Spend B/W to increase the maximum range the user can jump by the number of range upgrades purchased. The user may not activate this multiple times. Remember that the user must still spend Force points to activate the power's actual effects."

The range upgrade only describes how far you can jump . No mention in the description is made of other uses. Can this be applied to making a jump with Athletics when affected by Enhance is used on Brawn?

Short answer : No!

Slightly longer answer : SERIOUSLY! NO!

Long answer : If you and your GM want to twist the rules so far and you both agree on that interpretation of what the Range Upgrade description means, that's your business (And it still wouldn't be the furthest I've seen people try to bend the rules in this forum). But if you have the range upgrade, you've already bought the freaking Force Leap control upgrade and why the **** aren't you using that instead!?!?!?!!?

This upgrade is in a branch of the tree that only involves the Force Leap action. This is a weak argument, but it's also really clear what the upgrade is intended to do.

And if you're trying to Force Leap to medium range, you can fail the roll with FR 1, since the attempt takes 1 pip to activate the power and 1 to upgrade the range.

Also, everyone above is correct: You can't force leap past medium range. There's only one range upgrade in the table and it's description explicitly states you can only activate it once.. The "number of ranged upgrades" is just standard wording for the upgrades.

This question was addressed in this thread yesterday..

Thank you for your answers.
Just want to clarify a bit: when I mean extending the range with this power, I mean the difference between Enhance Basic Power and the Force Leap action. Of course I don't mean having a Medium Range Brawn (although an extended Force Punch would be cool).

So basically let's say I'm a Force-user and I want to jump over to the next rooftop. The range is Medium. I do an Athletics check and use Enhance to amass more success/advantages.

Then my Rival wants to do the same. She has Force Leap with Medium range upgrade. She doesn't even need to roll Athletics; only two pips required in order to do it automatically.

Clearly the answer was that it applies only to Force Leap talent (I get it) but now I'm wondering if its actually doable without it. Is it possible?

Medium range is described as "several dozen meters". I believe the world record for a long jump is ~9 meters. So I'd say even if you were using Enhance to boost a single Athletics leap, no. Even if you wanted to make it a considerably hard check.

You'd need to be a special species made for jumping or have wings to be able to do it with Athletics, even with Enhance boosting it.

When rolling for force points, what happens first, the jump or 'activating' the force?

Example: Padawn Neo is leaping from one building top to another within medium range to follow his master, let's call him Morpheus. Does Neo make the jump and then, in mid air, rolls his force die and unfortunately only gains one pip, one pip shy of the two needed to complete the jump, which leads to him meeting the pavement below?

When rolling for force points, what happens first, the jump or 'activating' the force?

Example: Padawn Neo is leaping from one building top to another within medium range to follow his master, let's call him Morpheus. Does Neo make the jump and then, in mid air, rolls his force die and unfortunately only gains one pip, one pip shy of the two needed to complete the jump, which leads to him meeting the pavement below?

You declare the action, and then see if it's successful. So for force leap, if you fail the roll, you fall. In this system, a failed roll means you made the attempt and failed; a failed roll does not mean nothing happens.

When rolling for force points, what happens first, the jump or 'activating' the force?

Example: Padawn Neo is leaping from one building top to another within medium range to follow his master, let's call him Morpheus. Does Neo make the jump and then, in mid air, rolls his force die and unfortunately only gains one pip, one pip shy of the two needed to complete the jump, which leads to him meeting the pavement below?

You declare the action, and then see if it's successful. So for force leap, if you fail the roll, you fall. In this system, a failed roll means you made the attempt and failed; a failed roll does not mean nothing happens.

This is not true to the system.

I believe you are mistaken here on what lack of Force Points mean. Generating less Force Points than desired does not equate with a failed check. Force Powers are always considered to be "successfully activated," so failure in this sense is not actually possible within the system. So, in that instance, falling isn't really appropriate. You simply aren't strong enough in the Force to jump, or (possibly) you withstand the temptation to give in to the dark side: instead of brashly jumping into the heat of battle and seeking glory in your own prowess, you look for a more stealthy way in so as to better aid your companions.

Now, failure on a skill check can mean any sort of thing, depending on the environment the check is made, and when Force dice are added to these skill checks, they usually do something concrete like adding Success/Advantage to the dice pool. So in that instance, it might be possible to fall, since the GM determines what failure on a check means.

Even then, though, I would say that only Threats or Despair should indicate an actual plummet. That's just my own two credits on the piece.

Agreed on a Force power if you don't have enough pips you just don't have the ability to do the power or you chose not to give into the darkside. The cost is still an action which depending on circumstances could be a huge cost.

But is the Range upgrade meant solely for Force Leap or the power in general?

What other aspect of the power could possibly benefit from a range increase? Roll your force dice along with your Athletics roll AT MEDIUM RANGECommit a force die to increase your brawn AT MEDIUM RANGE Doesn't really make sense.

And my other question still remain: is Medium range the maximum you can leap with this upgrade?

If you have the pips to do it, you can activate Range multiple times, each time boosting your range by 1. So if you generate 2 pips, you can go to Medium range (1 pip activates the jump, 1 pip increases the range). With 3 pips, you can jump to Long range. With 4, you can hit Extreme, and that's as far as you can go, since there's no range band beyond Extreme.Edit: That's assuming the newer F&D version doesn't specifically prohibit multi-activating Range. It may be some time before they errata AoR, so until then the F&D version should probably be considered the 'most correct version'. Just saying.By the way, I like to flavor the horizontal "force leap" as "force speed" -- if I'm not crossing a chasm or jumping over my enemy's head or something, I generally assume my character kept his feet on the ground and just ran really fast .

Do the exact se thing for horizontal leap unless my player likes it being off the ground.

Medium range is described as "several dozen meters". I believe the world record for a long jump is ~9 meters. So I'd say even if you were using Enhance to boost a single Athletics leap, no. Even if you wanted to make it a considerably hard check.

You'd need to be a special species made for jumping or have wings to be able to do it with Athletics, even with Enhance boosting it.

Why?

This is the system of "Yes; and..." I would absolutely allow someone to try to make the jump to a Medium range with just Athletics; especially if they have Enhance (and only the basic power).

I'd make it a Daunting or Formidable check, I might add in Setback Dice for enviroment and/or upgrades for that added complexity, but I don't see why we can't bend realism for a game set in the Star Wars universe.

Realism is such a fluid thing in this genre anyway.

Perfect thing about this system is how it allows for so many ways to run the game. Unlike other systems locked in exacts

Medium range is described as "several dozen meters". I believe the world record for a long jump is ~9 meters. So I'd say even if you were using Enhance to boost a single Athletics leap, no. Even if you wanted to make it a considerably hard check.

You'd need to be a special species made for jumping or have wings to be able to do it with Athletics, even with Enhance boosting it.

Why?

This is the system of "Yes; and..." I would absolutely allow someone to try to make the jump to a Medium range with just Athletics; especially if they have Enhance (and only the basic power).

It's a system of saying yes within reason. Humans suddenly able to jump several times further than ever documented isn't within reason.

"I wanna jump to space" Yes and? No.

Just. No.

When rolling for force points, what happens first, the jump or 'activating' the force?

Example: Padawn Neo is leaping from one building top to another within medium range to follow his master, let's call him Morpheus. Does Neo make the jump and then, in mid air, rolls his force die and unfortunately only gains one pip, one pip shy of the two needed to complete the jump, which leads to him meeting the pavement below?

You declare the action, and then see if it's successful. So for force leap, if you fail the roll, you fall. In this system, a failed roll means you made the attempt and failed; a failed roll does not mean nothing happens.

This is not true to the system.

I believe you are mistaken here on what lack of Force Points mean. Generating less Force Points than desired does not equate with a failed check. Force Powers are always considered to be "successfully activated," so failure in this sense is not actually possible within the system. So, in that instance, falling isn't really appropriate. You simply aren't strong enough in the Force to jump, or (possibly) you withstand the temptation to give in to the dark side: instead of brashly jumping into the heat of battle and seeking glory in your own prowess, you look for a more stealthy way in so as to better aid your companions.

Now, failure on a skill check can mean any sort of thing, depending on the environment the check is made, and when Force dice are added to these skill checks, they usually do something concrete like adding Success/Advantage to the dice pool. So in that instance, it might be possible to fall, since the GM determines what failure on a check means.

Even then, though, I would say that only Threats or Despair should indicate an actual plummet. That's just my own two credits on the piece.

In my mind, when I was saying the character falls, I was seeing the character jump between two ledges that were medium range apart. They fail the check, they fail to land on ground. They fall.

That being said, I can't find a *single* thing in the rules that makes what I said "untrue to the system". If you want to lean "A Force power is always 'successfully' activated, [even on a failed roll]," then a failed Force Leap check activates and you leap somewhere!

I personally don't think that's what that passage refers to *at all*. In my reading, the purpose of that line is to clarify that limited use powers (i.e. powers that have "once per session" or "once per encounter" in the description, e.g. Heal's Mastery use), whether they're successful or not, are activated and the character cannot attempt them again. There's no point in rolling to roll force power checks if force powers always activate successfully, making that interpretation absurd and meaningless.

Regardless, I don't mind letting my players fail. I can't see how having a reasonable negative effect occur when something risky fails somehow falls outside, or goes against the nature of the game. If there are other rules that you think that make it clear that I'm subverting the "truth" of the system, then please share.

The problem is that, with a Force leap, there is no "failed roll." It's not a skill check, so there's 0 chance of failure, since you don't need to check for Success in the first place.

That is why declaring a player who doesn't generate enough Force Points to make a leap to Medium range to have failed their check is untrue to the system.

Another reason, perhaps, that the rules mention that a Force power is always "activated", even if it's not successful - perhaps even a failed attempt means you risk discovery from someone/something that has the ability to sense Force manipulation? So even if you're not successful in Influencing someone, a nearby Inquisitor who is actively searching for you in the Force might feel the ripples created by someone drawing on the Force (even unsuccessfully).

Medium range is described as "several dozen meters". I believe the world record for a long jump is ~9 meters. So I'd say even if you were using Enhance to boost a single Athletics leap, no. Even if you wanted to make it a considerably hard check.

You'd need to be a special species made for jumping or have wings to be able to do it with Athletics, even with Enhance boosting it.

Why?

This is the system of "Yes; and..." I would absolutely allow someone to try to make the jump to a Medium range with just Athletics; especially if they have Enhance (and only the basic power).

It's a system of saying yes within reason. Humans suddenly able to jump several times further than ever documented isn't within reason.

"I wanna jump to space" Yes and? No.

Just. No.

But the PC didn't ask to jump into space. They (in the presented scenario) asked if they could make a jump out to Medium range. I'd make it highly unlikely or nigh-impossible to succeed, but I'd let them try. If they had Enhance, the odds of success go up slightly. Slightly. Plus they are drawing on the Force for a boost, so why can't it be a momentary break from what is possible to normal beings? They use enhance to get a REAL GOOD running start, or push their muscles to superhuman levels without the refinement of a true Force Leap.

If a PC wants to make a jump to Long range, and they don't have a **** good reason why they should be allowed to try, then I'd agree with you and say that the jump is just too far. But Medium Range? A dozen meters? 30-40 feet?

C'mon, man, why not let the PC try and be a hero and go for it? They'll likely fail anyway if you stack the dice against them.

The problem is that, with a Force leap, there is no "failed roll." It's not a skill check, so there's 0 chance of failure, since you don't need to check for Success in the first place.

That is why declaring a player who doesn't generate enough Force Points to make a leap to Medium range to have failed their check is untrue to the system.

Based on your interpretation of a single sentence in the book that may or may not pertain to what's being discussed

And it's not nearly sufficient to claim my interpretation is somehow contrary to the spirit of the game.

But the PC didn't ask to jump into space. They (in the presented scenario) asked if they could make a jump out to Medium range. I'd make it highly unlikely or nigh-impossible to succeed, but I'd let them try. If they had Enhance, the odds of success go up slightly. Slightly. Plus they are drawing on the Force for a boost, so why can't it be a momentary break from what is possible to normal beings? They use enhance to get a REAL GOOD running start, or push their muscles to superhuman levels without the refinement of a true Force Leap.

If a PC wants to make a jump to Long range, and they don't have a **** good reason why they should be allowed to try, then I'd agree with you and say that the jump is just too far. But Medium Range? A dozen meters? 30-40 feet?

C'mon, man, why not let the PC try and be a hero and go for it? They'll likely fail anyway if you stack the dice against them.

There's nothing wrong with letting players feel larger than life and do extraordinary things. But Medium range can be as short as 30-40 feet, sure, but its max can be closer to 120 feet. And keep in mind that your average person in the game can't even throw a weapon to this distance.

So sure, it can be fine to fiddle with it and let them try it if it's closer to the border of Short and Medium - but more towards or the center? Or even near the edge of Medium and Long? Even with just the base version of Enhance, it shouldn't be possible. That's one of the reasons the upgrades are there. Not just so you can have a more reliable source for moving these wider distances, but because you just are physically incapable of doing it otherwise without it.

But the PC didn't ask to jump into space. They (in the presented scenario) asked if they could make a jump out to Medium range. I'd make it highly unlikely or nigh-impossible to succeed, but I'd let them try. If they had Enhance, the odds of success go up slightly. Slightly. Plus they are drawing on the Force for a boost, so why can't it be a momentary break from what is possible to normal beings? They use enhance to get a REAL GOOD running start, or push their muscles to superhuman levels without the refinement of a true Force Leap.

If a PC wants to make a jump to Long range, and they don't have a **** good reason why they should be allowed to try, then I'd agree with you and say that the jump is just too far. But Medium Range? A dozen meters? 30-40 feet?

C'mon, man, why not let the PC try and be a hero and go for it? They'll likely fail anyway if you stack the dice against them.

There's nothing wrong with letting players feel larger than life and do extraordinary things. But Medium range can be as short as 30-40 feet, sure, but its max can be closer to 120 feet. And keep in mind that your average person in the game can't even throw a weapon to this distance.

So sure, it can be fine to fiddle with it and let them try it if it's closer to the border of Short and Medium - but more towards or the center? Or even near the edge of Medium and Long? Even with just the base version of Enhance, it shouldn't be possible. That's one of the reasons the upgrades are there. Not just so you can have a more reliable source for moving these wider distances, but because you just are physically incapable of doing it otherwise without it.

*shrug*

We play and run our games differently.

Who's to judge, I suppose. As long as everyone's having fun.

Regardless, I don't mind letting my players fail. I can't see how having a reasonable negative effect occur when something risky fails somehow falls outside, or goes against the nature of the game. If there are other rules that you think that make it clear that I'm subverting the "truth" of the system, then please share.

The problem is that, with a Force leap, there is no "failed roll." It's not a skill check, so there's 0 chance of failure, since you don't need to check for Success in the first place.

That is why declaring a player who doesn't generate enough Force Points to make a leap to Medium range to have failed their check is untrue to the system.

Based on your interpretation of a single sentence in the book that may or may not pertain to what's being discussed

And it's not nearly sufficient to claim my interpretation is somehow contrary to the spirit of the game.

I have no problem, in general, with letting players fall when the situation calls for it. But I just can't agree with you on this one, good sir. It's not just that single sentence, but that sentence does serve to support the more specific context of the Enhance power itself.

Here's what I'm talking about...the "Force Leap" upgrade reads: The Force user can take a Force Leap action to make an Enhance power check. He may spend [1 Force Point] to jump horizontally to any location within short range. Note the order of things: 1) the player makes the power check, which is just his Force Rating dice pool. 2) Then, he may spend a Force point to leap to a location at short range. The upgrade also notes that it allows the user to leap over obstacles and impassible terrain.

Unless the GM is requiring that a skill check be made (perhaps opposed Discipline if another Force user is trying to telekinetically hold them in place? Or spending a Destiny Point to include a Difficulty die in the mix? I'm sure there are situations where it'd be warranted), there's no Success required for the "attempt."

Further, all that's being attempted is an activation of the Force power, which then may be used to cause the player to leap to a location at short range (or medium range, etc, with another upgrade & another Force Point). My claim is that there is no actual risk of failure here: the Force Leap action is not the PC trying to leap ; but rather trying to call on the Force . Once the Force has been called on, the PC may simply leap. And even if the chance for Failure was somehow introduced, the scope of the Force Leap action is such that failure would actually simply signify the PC being unable to call on the Force.

Causing a PC to fall simply because there's a lack of Force Points on a Force Leap action is contrary to the way the rules actually work. I'm sorry if, when I said "untrue to the system," I somehow implied an interpretation based on a "spirit of the rules" kind of feeling. It does sit uneasy with me, because it seems to me like a really unreasonable thing for a GM to do; however, I quote the rules to show that it's not just a gut feeling, but rather a grounded notion.

--

In short, the player simply should not be at risk of falling, unless he's also rolling a skill check alongside the Enhance power check (and I would posit that, unless a Despair or few Threat gets rolled, he still doesn't fall; because the power check is to call on the Force, not to attempt a leap).

So...that's me sharing.

No. After you state:

You aren't sharing.

You're judging .

That goes beyond a "spirit of the rules" interpetation. You're stating your interpretation is apparently the truth from on high and no matter what, if it's not your interpretation, it's wrong. And it's not only wrong, but it's basically heretical and contrary to the "truth of game." You've made it clear there can't possibly be room for interpretation.

I have no problem, in general, with letting players fall when the situation calls for it. But I just can't agree with you on this one, good sir. It's not just that single sentence, but that sentence does serve to support the more specific context of the Enhance power itself.

I clarified above that I was discussing jumping over a gap:

is crap. And yes now I'm judging because you either can't or won't see common ground or stop your condescending rhetoric. And frankly past caring which one it is.

As for a response? Fine, I'm bored.

First, there is no order implicit in the Force Leap description. It does not say "activate THEN spend" or any version of that. You've made it very clear that all force power activations are successful, so you activate the power.

That means you're force leaping. Roll be d*mned. You're force leaping. What happens on an activation without force pips is up to the GM. (I'll come back to this at the end)

The action is attempt to make the force leap, and I'll refer to the rules on page 16 and 17 about the core mechanic. It's incredibly clear that the steps are:

1. Player/character attempts an action
2. Dice are rolled
3. Dice are interpreted to determine the outcome of the action

And you're going to say that only applies to skill checks.

And that's stupid.

Granted, there are rules that state that force dice mechanics are different than skill dice mechanics (specifically pp 19 & 21), but nothing says that the result of force power check doesn't affect the outcome of the action. It's still:

1. Player/character attempts a force power
2. Dice are rolled
3. Dice are interpreted to determine the outcome of the attempt

Frankly, I think (See, I'm qualifying this as opinion, hence not a statement of fact) this interpretation is vastly more "True to the system" than yours, because in my interpretation STUFF HAPPENS. It's dynamic. There's risk. Players have to make choices. Maybe the whether or not to risk the conflict to pull on the dark side to succeed on the leap and NOT fall between the buildings.

All of that feeds the narrative.

Your interpretation has characters wringing their hands and grinding their teeth and STANDING THERE. That's crappy story telling. It does next to nothing for the narrative.

And finally, we're having this discussion because the developers, in their infinite f***ing wisdom, decided to leave this ambiguous, and it's been repeated, ad nauseum , that the reason is so the interpretation can be left to the table's GM to ultimately arbitrate the results.

Told you I'd come back to it.

And since ultimate "truth of the system" is that it's up to the GM is ultimately interpret this vaguely-written ****, telling another GM their interpretation isn't "true to the system" isn't true to the system.