I think part of the problem is that people keep viewing ships in x wing miniatures game not for how they function within the game, but for how they differ from nostalgiac memories of old comics and games. Honestly until we can move past that and accept that things will differ when implemented in the game, we'll continue to have "Solution to fix ship-N " threads...

So far the only suggestion for the Defender that I've seen to be comparable to the 'I Win' title Grimmy suggested is the '+2 shield, +1 agility, boost+evade, free ion cannon' title, which is undoubtably far too powerful, especially for 0pts.

For the record, the Ion Cannon isn't free, you still have to pay it's point cost. It just doesn't take up your Cannon slot(so that you can also take a Tractor Beam and be as fluffy as possible). And the 0 point cost isn't meant to be serious. The card maker just wouldn't let me put a ? in that slot.

Edit: Fixed it in Photoshop.

Well considering the upgrades your talking about.

• Stealth Device (without being removable) 3 points
• 2x Shield Upgrade 8 points
• Engine Upgrade 4 points
• Evade (using the falcon title) 1 point
• adding a cannon slot (heavy scyk) 2 points

That brings it to 18 points worth of upgrades. Let's assume the defender is 6 points over costed which is a debatable number that still should put this title at around 12 points at least.

The defender is very good as is. Add a proton rocket, and something far traditionally powerful, and watch people dance around you to avoid range one while also leaving themselves open to that white 4k

Well considering the upgrades your talking about.

• Stealth Device (without being removable) 3 points
• 2x Shield Upgrade 8 points
• Engine Upgrade 4 points
• Evade (using the falcon title) 1 point
• adding a cannon slot (heavy scyk) 2 points

That brings it to 18 points worth of upgrades. Let's assume the defender is 6 points over costed which is a debatable number that still should put this title at around 12 points at least.

Sounds good to me.

I think part of the problem is that people keep viewing ships in x wing miniatures game not for how they function within the game, but for how they differ from nostalgiac memories of old comics and games. Honestly until we can move past that and accept that things will differ when implemented in the game, we'll continue to have "Solution to fix ship-N " threads...

Fair enough, but I don't think anyone could argue that the Defender doesn't need some kind of improvement (very much confirmed by the designers themselves, I believe) as right now it is definitely overcosted - in which case, not knowing if FFG have anything already planned, people will turn to what they know of the Defender, fluff wise, for ideas and speculation. For reference, I never played any of the old games in which the Defender appeared, so nostalgia is not a factor for me.

To keep things simple, I suppose one could just have a title with a negative points value to bring the Defender in line, but that seems an unimaginative way to approach the problem.

This thread, and threads like it, aren't really constructive regardless of how grounded or fantastic the content is.

Moreover, even if I agreed with you, GrimmyV is summarizing an unfortunately large portion of the conversation around the Defender.

Arn't they? I don't see how posting suggestions for improvements is detrimental to the forum or the game. I'm not expecting it to serve as a direct line to FFG's developers, but at the same time I highly doubt they ignore the forums entirely when it comes to rules design.

They absolutely do ignore the forums. And I didn't say the conversation was detrimental, I said it wasn't constructive--that is, it doesn't hurt anything, but it also doesn't accomplish anything other than making the participants in the conversation feel better.

So far the only suggestion for the Defender that I've seen to be comparable to the 'I Win' title Grimmy suggested is the '+2 shield, +1 agility, boost+evade, free ion cannon' title, which is undoubtably far too powerful, especially for 0pts. Other suggestions, though (and I would hope mine could be included) are mostly reasonably thought out and have a mind towards improving the Defender's lot without going too far.

I like your linked-cannon fix. That doesn't change the fact that a lot of people either don't understand game design or want the Defender to be overpowered (or both, of course).

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of people either don't understand game design or want the Defender to be overpowered (or both, of course).

Nothing is OP if you charge the right amount of points for it.

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of people either don't understand game design or want the Defender to be overpowered (or both, of course).

Nothing is OP if you charge the right amount of points for it.

Lots of things aren't OP if you charge the right number of points for it, but some things really are inappropriate:

• A ship with 4 Agility can't feasibly be hit by a substantial portion of the game's ships, so that's a bad idea.
• A ship that cost 100 points would be a problem at tournaments even if it was a perfect 50/50 matchup in untimed casual play.
• A weapon that assigned 2 ion tokens and 2 stress tokens on a hit would leave few meaningful decisions for the opponent on the following round, making it a frustrating play experience regardless of how expensive you made it.

Tie defenders need their own version of auto thrusters to mitigate the fact they roll green dice.

But then you remember that a mod would mean they lose their green banks. And go back to being unplayable.

Oh and you have to devote a third of your list to them?

Pass.

A weapon that assigned 2 ion tokens and 2 stress tokens on a hit would leave few meaningful decisions for the opponent on the following round, making it a frustrating play experience regardless of how expensive you made it.

Sure, but being no fun to play against is not the same thing as being OP.

A weapon that assigned 2 ion tokens and 2 stress tokens on a hit would leave few meaningful decisions for the opponent on the following round, making it a frustrating play experience regardless of how expensive you made it.

Sure, but being no fun to play against is not the same thing as being OP.

At that number you would be able to fly 4, with TIE mk II, for 100 points. Good, but hardly overpowered.

Sorry, what? The TIE Defender is the most durable small ship in the game, by a healthy margin. Four TIE Defenders in a 100-point list are about as hard to kill as an 8-ship TIE swarm, but offer about half again as much offense. A four-ship Defender swarm would be a nightmare for game balance.

Have you tried it against a top tier list?

What about an ept that gives you a single use get out of jail free card.

"Better Lucky Than Dead: When defending you may discard this card to cancel all of the attacker's dice."

You'll save it most of the game when you take just one or two damage but get to cash it in when your ~35 point guy rolls four blanks against an obstructed Super Dash.

It lets us drive home Rexler Brath's opinion that Defender Pilots are either the best, or the luckiest pjlots in the fleet.

At what point value is "you win the game" not op?

Over 100 points obviously. Since you can't use it in a competitive game, it's not OP.

At what point value is "you win the game" not op?

Over 100 points obviously. Since you can't use it in a competitive game, it's not OP.

Free is probably better.

Funny, I can't tell if people are actually taking this seriously or not anymore.

0 point tie defender "autothruster" type title

when attacking or defendiing, you may turn 1 focus result per roll into a hit or evade.

Eyeballing the jousting value, that shoud bring it to a reasonable value, help with fickle green dice, improve the action ecomomy of Deltas, and make Rexler's ability more useful.

At that number you would be able to fly 4, with TIE mk II, for 100 points. Good, but hardly overpowered.

Sorry, what? The TIE Defender is the most durable small ship in the game, by a healthy margin. Four TIE Defenders in a 100-point list are about as hard to kill as an 8-ship TIE swarm, but offer about half again as much offense. A four-ship Defender swarm would be a nightmare for game balance.

Have you tried it against a top tier list?

Yes.