Hi folks,

perhaps this is a double post, but I didn't find a proper answer to my question by searching the forum. I have a question regarding the movement of large monsters. Especially the case that the movement should be interrupted to perform an other action. We had a discussion over this on or last gaming session. So I will try to describe my question with an example of the movement of an Elemental.

Let's say we have this situation: There are 2 heroes (H1 & H2) and one Elemental (E) placed on the map as follows (Before Activation). Now the Elemental is activated, "shrinks" to the top left field of its base and spends 2 movement points, interrupts its movement and expands like the dashed lines show (Movement Action). Now the Elemental want to use his action "Earth", which says:

"Each hero adjacent to this monster must test awareness. Each hero that fails is Immobilized."

So it seems logically to me, that both heroes are effected by this action.

BUT: The official FAQ says:

Page 16, “Large Monsters”: Add, “When interrupting a large monster’s movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s figure on the map.”

Does this mean the Elemental can only effect H1 when it is interrupting its movement, but will effect both heroes if it ends its movement like shown below?!? This would be very strange in my (overlord) eyes!

Can anyone help me out on this one? Is there another rule clarification I missed out?

Best regards,

SlimShady

The elemental MUST be adjacent to at least one hero to declare the action. However, once he declares it, he expads, and once he expands, he is adjacent to both heroes. Both are affected.

My best interpretation of this rule is that the action that is declared when interrupting movement must be a legal one.

Check out this link I made. The first image contains valid ways that a 2x2 monster could interrupt his movement to declare an attack, as I understand it. The blue circle is his original space, the beige circle is his expanded base, and the gray circles are enemy figures. The red Xs indicate valid targets from his expanded base (assuming melee, non-reach.) The second and third images contain a bunch of examples of invalid ways to interrupt movement. However, if his movement were ended, he could expand and attack the spaces indicated.

The benefit of the rule about declaring your target before attacking is that the monster can't just sit in one space and and attack a bunch of different figures while spending zero movement points. There are still a couple spaces from which he can legally attack multiple figures, but it's much better than the alternative. This is much more noticeable with shadow dragons.

I think Elemental could declare Earth even if there are no adjacent heroes. The ability just affects no one. It is not the same as an attack, which needs a valid target to be declared.

And while you think about it... I throw another related (I think) question. Imagine the same scenario as above, but now the monster is a Merriod, and H2 is 1 square to the right. Could the Merriod, from square 2, declare an attack with Flail and target both heroes? H1 is close enough to declare legally the attack, but H2 is too far, even with Reach, from the shrunk space. But once expanded, it could be targeted... So, are the two heroes targeted simoultaneuosly?

I think Elemental could declare Earth even if there are no adjacent heroes. The ability just affects no one. It is not the same as an attack, which needs a valid target to be declared.

And while you think about it... I throw another related (I think question). Imagine the same scenario as above, but now the monster is a Merriod, and H2 is 1 square to the right. Could the Merriod, from square 2, declare an attack with Flail and target both heroes? H1 is close enough to declare legally the attack, but H2 is too far, even with Reach, from the shrunk space. But once expanded, it could be targeted... So, are the two heroes targeted simoultaneuosly?

We have been playing it that he may flail. The intention prior to placing and expanding the figure is made for movement purposes, but the attack happens after the monster is placed. The same is not true for heroes abilities such as guard that can only be triggered when a figure enters the space (that's not the same as expanding).

Hope we have been playing it correctly!

I think Elemental could declare Earth even if there are no adjacent heroes. The ability just affects no one. It is not the same as an attack, which needs a valid target to be declared.

And while you think about it... I throw another related (I think question). Imagine the same scenario as above, but now the monster is a Merriod, and H2 is 1 square to the right. Could the Merriod, from square 2, declare an attack with Flail and target both heroes? H1 is close enough to declare legally the attack, but H2 is too far, even with Reach, from the shrunk space. But once expanded, it could be targeted... So, are the two heroes targeted simoultaneuosly?

Regarding earth while no heroes are adjacent, that's really sort of circumventing the rule about the action being legal to declare before you place your figure. Regarding the merriod, that's a gray area, and comes down to something quite technical (it's an FFG question.) "When a large monster interrupts a move action to declare an attack, may it declare additional targets after it expands, or must all targets be valid targets from the shrunken space?"

Case 1: The master merriod. He is (shrunken) adjacent to Hero A, and within 3 spaces of heroes B and C. He declares an attack to expand, such that all 3 heroes are now in range.

-Can he use flail to target heroes A and B? What about B and C?

Case 2: The master arachyura. He is (shrunken) adjacent to Hero A, and within 2 spaces of heroes B and C. He declares an attack and expands, such that all heroes are now adjacent.

-Can he target heroes A and B? What about B and C? Same issue as the merriod with flail, except now instead of being a perk of all attacks, this is a monster action which specifically targets two heroes "adjacent to this monster."

In both cases, the answer hinges on the question of whether "declaring the action" and "declaring the target of the attack" are two separate things. If they are the same thing, then it seems that the only valid targets should be those that fulfill the necessary targeting requirements from the shrunken space. If they are distinct, then it must be asked why B and C would be valid targets along with A, but not together (or if they are all indeed valid targets.)

In my opinion, (admittedly reading between the lines) the targets of the action must include the the targets used to declare. That is, the merriod could attack A and B or A and C, but not use B and C. Because really, attacking B and C is just using A as an excuse to ignore the ruling about valid targets to declare the action. My argument is the same with the elemental's earth. Expanding and affecting additional heroes as a consequence of being a 2x2 monster is fine- but expanding before there are any valid targets of the ability is cheating the requirement added to the FAQ.

Let's remember why the errata was added in the first place- to prevent a large monster from interrupting multiple times in different directions without using movement points. That is, the dragon is forced to actually get adjacent to its chosen target before it decides to attack that target. Declaring an action and then affecting additional spaces as a consequence of expanding is one thing- declaring while you're still out of range is what the errata is designed to prevent.

I think Elemental could declare Earth even if there are no adjacent heroes. The ability just affects no one. It is not the same as an attack, which needs a valid target to be declared.

And while you think about it... I throw another related (I think question). Imagine the same scenario as above, but now the monster is a Merriod, and H2 is 1 square to the right. Could the Merriod, from square 2, declare an attack with Flail and target both heroes? H1 is close enough to declare legally the attack, but H2 is too far, even with Reach, from the shrunk space. But once expanded, it could be targeted... So, are the two heroes targeted simoultaneuosly?

Regarding earth while no heroes are adjacent, that's really sort of circumventing the rule about the action being legal to declare before you place your figure. Regarding the merriod, that's a gray area, and comes down to something quite technical (it's an FFG question.) "When a large monster interrupts a move action to declare an attack, may it declare additional targets after it expands, or must all targets be valid targets from the shrunken space?"

Case 1: The master merriod. He is (shrunken) adjacent to Hero A, and within 3 spaces of heroes B and C. He declares an attack to expand, such that all 3 heroes are now in range.

-Can he use flail to target heroes A and B? What about B and C?

Case 2: The master arachyura. He is (shrunken) adjacent to Hero A, and within 2 spaces of heroes B and C. He declares an attack and expands, such that all heroes are now adjacent.

-Can he target heroes A and B? What about B and C? Same issue as the merriod with flail, except now instead of being a perk of all attacks, this is a monster action which specifically targets two heroes "adjacent to this monster."

In both cases, the answer hinges on the question of whether "declaring the action" and "declaring the target of the attack" are two separate things. If they are the same thing, then it seems that the only valid targets should be those that fulfill the necessary targeting requirements from the shrunken space. If they are distinct, then it must be asked why B and C would be valid targets along with A, but not together (or if they are all indeed valid targets.)

In my opinion, (admittedly reading between the lines) the targets of the action must include the the targets used to declare. That is, the merriod could attack A and B or A and C, but not use B and C. Because really, attacking B and C is just using A as an excuse to ignore the ruling about valid targets to declare the action. My argument is the same with the elemental's earth. Expanding and affecting additional heroes as a consequence of being a 2x2 monster is fine- but expanding before there are any valid targets of the ability is cheating the requirement added to the FAQ.

Let's remember why the errata was added in the first place- to prevent a large monster from interrupting multiple times in different directions without using movement points. That is, the dragon is forced to actually get adjacent to its chosen target before it decides to attack that target. Declaring an action and then affecting additional spaces as a consequence of expanding is one thing- declaring while you're still out of range is what the errata is designed to prevent.

I fully agree with everything about the Merriod. It is... complicated.

My point with Elemental's Earth is that, while attacks ask for a valid target for being declared, any other non-attack skills don't, or that's what I thought. Can an Elemental declare Earth, while not moving, even if there are no heroes adjacent? If it can, then it definetely can declare it from a shrunk space not adjacente to any hero, but affecting heroes adjacent to the expanded monster.

I fully agree with everything about the Merriod. It is... complicated.

My point with Elemental's Earth is that, while attacks ask for a valid target for being declared, any other non-attack skills don't, or that's what I thought. Can an Elemental declare Earth, while not moving, even if there are no heroes adjacent? If it can, then it definetely can declare it from a shrunk space not adjacente to any hero, but affecting heroes adjacent to the expanded monster.

I disagree, I'm sorry. Yes, the elemental could declare "earth" if there are no valid targets-but that is not unique to non-attacks. For example, Jain can do her heroic feat even if there are no monsters on the map to attack. The geomancer can exhaust terracall even if he chooses not to summon a stone. The berserker can use whirlwind even if there are no adjacent monsters (why he would is beyond me,) but once you have a shadow dragon, the "why" becomes clear. Remember that pre-errata, the shadow dragons COULD declare an attack with no valid targets, and then, once expanded, say, "hey look, a target!" The errata was added to prevent this behavior , and that looks like exactly what the elemental is doing when you say, "well, doing earth from this space would be useless. But once I expand, it'll be fine, I swear!" It seems qualitatively different to me than, "alright, I'm going to use earth, which will affect this hero. Now I expand here, and because I'm large, this guy and this guy are also adjacent to me, so they test as well."

So then, if I understand correctly, you mean that the Elemental could still declare from a shrunk space with no adjacent heroes, and if after expanding, any hero becomes adjacent, he wont be affected as he was not taken as a target when declaring.

It makes sense. A lot.

Actually, I'm not sure what I'm claiming. I think I'm claiming that the elemental cannot interrupt his movement by declaring "earth" if there are no adjacent heroes.

-It has been ruled in cases like advance and terracall that a skill can be exhausted/used/declared even if some of the things on the skill are voluntarily not done. For example, knight can advance just to move, even if there is no chance that he is attacking. Geomancer can terracall just to have a stone attack later, without discarding or summoning one.

-We seem to agree that a merriod or arachyura could add "additonal" targets when it expands, providing it had one when shrunk.

So, the errata specifies that to expand, a large monster must declare an action that is valid from its shrunken space. I think that imposes an additional restriction on large monsters- that is, if you had a large berserker monster, he could not declare whirlwind unless he could actually hit someone. While I would like for our second point to be true (allowing a merriod to expand and flail) I do not know if it is.

Elementals are ranged. Think about an elemental coming around a corner, with a hero JUST out of LOS. He could not declare a ranged attack against that hero since while shrunk, he can not see that hero. However, if he has another hero in LOS he could expand to attack THAT hero, attacking the first hero as well if he had a suitable ability. That is the same situation, and I just do not know if it is legal. Definitely legal pre-errata.

In my opinion, a suitable reading of the errata is that as long as the action has a valid target when you declare it, supplemental targets after expansion are fine. If there is no valid target WHEN YOU DECLARE, it is not a valid interruption. FFG may say differently, I am assuming you'll submit this. Please note that the elemental could still END his move action and then use his second action to "earth, hitting both. Also, once the large monster expands, he can measure range and LOS from any space, not just the spaces where he could see while shrunk.

Question(s) submitted.

Phew! It was a long question!

So, the errata specifies that to expand, a large monster must declare an action that is valid from its shrunken space.

That statement is how I understand it and is the clearest way to answer the question.

Got it:

> -A Merriod is moving, and while shrunk, moves 2 spaces away to a hero (say H1) and 3 spaces away from another (say H2). As Merriod has Reach, it can interrupt movement declaring an attack targeting H1. But once placed, it is now 2 spaces away from H2, and Master Merriod has Flail. Can it now declare H2 as a second target, or should it have be done before expanding? In other words, must all the targets be declared rigt in the declaration, or can "extra" targets be picked later ?
Yes, it can now target H2 with Flail.
> -Same situation. Must the Merriod pick H1 as a target, or can ir use the hero just as an "excuse" for the declaration, and then attack another hero?
No, if a merriod declares a legal attack against H1 it must continue to attack H1, it cannot declare a legal attack against H1 and then attack another hero instead.
> -Similar situation, but Merriod is now an Arachyura, and both heroes are 1 space closer to the monster. Arachyura uses Pincer Attack.
An arachyura follows the same rules presented above.
> -Similar situation, but the monster is now an Elemental. It moves adjacent to H1 and uses Earth, but after expanding, H2 is also adjacent. Are both heroes affected?
Yes, both heroes are affected.
> -Finally, Elemental moves to a space non adjacent to any heroes, but wants to use Earth, knowing that after expanding, some heroes will become adjacent. Can non-attack actions like Earth be declared with no valid targets?
No, the Elemental cannot declare Earth without any legal targets for Earth.

I hope this helps!

Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk

I think I covered everything here.

You did. Well formed question.