That's how I've done it so far. The problem arises when she steals the show, in that nobody can see her at all when she is sneaking up and assassinating Severan Dominate soldiers. Any situation where her stealth can't help her out (or an enemy that can see through it) leads to her thinking it is a matter of character sniping, that I'm purposefully trying to target her in a way that negates her one skill.

Then the rules-lawyering comes out, in that she begins meticulously counting out her own bonuses and trying to call me out on the enemies' bonuses and penalties as well. She tries to start a rules argument at the table so that the other players will help preserve her powergaming. I tend not to give in but am getting real sick of the arguments at the table, especially since anything I've done to try and combat it the players spin as me trying to assert control over them and kill off their players or something.

Quite simply, it is a mess.

Quite simply, it is a mess.

Is this a friend of yours or someone whom you could boot from the game?

Sounds like she really enjoys engaging with the rules. That's fine, but DH2 isn't on a sound mechanical foundation, and the kind of laser-focus build she's got going on breaks the system if you're playing by RAW. My advice is to explain this to her - she doesn't mean to do harm, but the game simply crumples under the weight of a well optimized character and you, as the GM, have to account for that.

She might enjoy a game like D&D4e, which is pretty well balanced so that players and the GM can go at each other without pulling any punches and it doesn't break.

All of that said, there is also the other side of this dispute where you're the wet blanket GM who won't allow anything fun to happen even if it is RAW (evidenced by: "anything I've done to try and combat it the players spin as me trying to assert control over them") and in that case you should lighten the hell up and let the players do whatever ridiculous nonsense they're going for. The "yes, and" approach.

Given that you're already using the system, there are other ways for you to try dealing with her. First, you should have a one-on-one talk with her about how arguing about specific bonuses at the table is not appreciated, and that it puts you in a bad position as a GM. I don't know the specifics of what's been happening, so it could be that she has a valid point going by the rules, or it could be that she's trying to completely break them. I would say you should ask her what she wants from the game, ask for her to trust you to give that to her, and in turn let her know what you want to do with the game, and ask her to help you make that happen as well.

As far as countering her stealth in game, it's a common GM mistake to frequently try negating a player's special skill either by having someone see through it or putting them in a position where they can't use it. What you want to do is provide situations that REQUIRE that level of skill in order to have a chance of succeeding. Someone heavily armored that could be snuck up on and injured.A bunch of guards that need to be distracted and led away. Basically, figure out situations where the stealth is a part of the solution and provide those. Also, come up with Sophie's choices for your players. By that I mean, give them two mutually exclusive options that are both things they want. Yes, they can sneak past these guards, but they need one alive to get access to the armory. The important thing is that you provide consequences in advance of actions. "Yeah, you could get up there and take out one, maybe two guards, but the other three would probably get you." The other option you can use is to allow her to do actions, but then pivot the spotlight: "You sneak up on the guards and slit their throats. John, from your character's position, you notice a pict-recorder servo skull suddenly flit out of the shadows and take off in the other direction. What do you do?" Always go with the "yes, but" as a warning, or use "yes, and" to pivot attention to someone else.

Edit: the really important thing with adding these extra consequences is to focus them on giving the other members of the group things they want to do/things they can use their skills for. Tell the lore heavy character he hears the guards mention an old legend and that if only he could hear a bit more they may be able to figure out what they're talking about. Have technical problems come up for the tech priest. Give the combat character some fights to get into that the stealth character is too busy to prevent. The key to doing this is that you don't make them roll to begin with. Have the character notice a problem for free (no observation roll), and then let them fix it.

The other option you can use is to allow her to do actions, but then pivot the spotlight: "You sneak up on the guards and slit their throats. John, from your character's position, you notice a pict-recorder servo skull suddenly flit out of the shadows and take off in the other direction. What do you do?" Always go with the "yes, but" as a warning, or use "yes, and" to pivot attention to someone else.

Careful about pivoting the spotlight, especially in the given example, where the success of the character is largely negated by the pict recorder. As the stealth-player in this situation, I would feel like a victory had been snatched from me and I would not enjoy my successful stealth murders, if I was immediately caught at it.

Now, if you've given people Awareness checks, then it's more okay.

Just be sure to let players bask in their success sometimes.

If you're unable to deal with a servo skull, you deserve to be caught, killed and impaled on a spike atop the fortress gates. That said:

HIPS does not exist in any game but DnD. If she's trying to "sneak" through well-populated urban environments (like a camp...), it's flat out impossible unless she's also invested in disguise skills. If she really wants to be an unseeable chamaeleon, she needs more than stealth.

Disguises, deceive, tech use for security systems, awareness to even spot them...these are things my stealth character had even with an effective stealth of 128. And even then, when you're ninja-stabbing the **** out of someone right next to a person, they see you. The guards sees you, everyone sees you, because if you're going to go RAW in 40k, by all means, give NPCs their -10 crit range and let them scream in agony, which will alert everyone.

"Yes, and" never works with rules-lawyers. It doesn't curb their behaviour. Confront them with the full brunt of their own bull.

The other option you can use is to allow her to do actions, but then pivot the spotlight: "You sneak up on the guards and slit their throats. John, from your character's position, you notice a pict-recorder servo skull suddenly flit out of the shadows and take off in the other direction. What do you do?" Always go with the "yes, but" as a warning, or use "yes, and" to pivot attention to someone else.

Careful about pivoting the spotlight, especially in the given example, where the success of the character is largely negated by the pict recorder. As the stealth-player in this situation, I would feel like a victory had been snatched from me and I would not enjoy my successful stealth murders, if I was immediately caught at it.

Now, if you've given people Awareness checks, then it's more okay.

Just be sure to let players bask in their success sometimes.

From the sounds of it, the character is interested in murdering people through stealth. Also, I don't think the servo skull negates things. It simply gives the other player something to after the stealth character gets through the guards.

The other option you can use is to allow her to do actions, but then pivot the spotlight: "You sneak up on the guards and slit their throats. John, from your character's position, you notice a pict-recorder servo skull suddenly flit out of the shadows and take off in the other direction. What do you do?" Always go with the "yes, but" as a warning, or use "yes, and" to pivot attention to someone else.

Careful about pivoting the spotlight, especially in the given example, where the success of the character is largely negated by the pict recorder. As the stealth-player in this situation, I would feel like a victory had been snatched from me and I would not enjoy my successful stealth murders, if I was immediately caught at it.

Now, if you've given people Awareness checks, then it's more okay.

Just be sure to let players bask in their success sometimes.

From the sounds of it, the character is interested in murdering people through stealth. Also, I don't think the servo skull negates things. It simply gives the other player something to after the stealth character gets through the guards.

Could be.

I was just cautioning to let people have their fun now and again, especially if they've built their character for it.

I am by and far for giving my players opportunities to use their skills in meaningful ways. The problem now is that she is doing nothing else but using her massively buffed stealth to avoid/break every encounter by being completely unseen. If I were to add in the need for disguise, tech-use, etc. she would start with the character sniping stuff again.

She is a friend of mine and the sibling of another member of the group. Booting her is not an option.

Part of the issue is she knows the rules very well as she has been the GM previously. She is also a big fan of video games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne, so I can't help but feel she has begun playing P&P like they are those games - your build is crucial, and little else matters. In something like D&D this wouldn't be an issue but in this game it has been.

One example would be this: a newbie player miserably failed a semi-auto burst into melee combat, accidentally striking the "stealth" player in the leg, blowing it off. By RAW, that is what the hit would've done and it was a fair shot - I was not trying to target her, or swing things in favor of the newbie. Nevertheless, the "stealth" player tried to argue her way out of it, attempting every flimsy rules excuse why she wouldn't get hit. I firmly told her no, it was done correctly and was just a misfortune of the dice. She pouted for the rest of the session.

The next session she was told that because they couldn't roll well enough to acquire a common-quality cybernetic leg, she got a poor one, with everything that entailed. Immediately she declared that "Her build was ruined, her character is going to commit suicide" and then arguing on and on for a common quality leg. Finally, I told her that any penalties to stealth from her leg would be situational at best, and probably none too common. Nevertheless, there were complaints the whole session.

The bit about the leg happened a solid two months ago, meaning about 7 or 8 sessions have passed. A couple weeks ago she sent me a text informing me that I was wrong about the combat situation regarding her leg, that she would've hit the helpless target she was fighting, and that she never would've got her leg shot off. She had been scouring the rules to try and find something to prove me wrong and I'm guessing convince me to retcon her getting her leg shot off, even though she now has a CQ cybernetic leg.

So that is the kind of rules-lawyering I am dealing with. The amount of "Well, actually, according to the rules..." in each session is just bad.

Copy her build exactly. Run it and Player Number clones of it against the party. Use every single argument she has for one session, and then ask her and the rest of your players if this is really how they want to keep playing.

And where are the other players in all of this? Have they made complaints or are they content to just sit around and watch this one player do her sneaking?

She pouted for the rest of the session.

"Her build was ruined, her character is going to commit suicide"

Is she 12?

I don't think Dark Heresy is the game she wants to be playing. DH1 was very much this way, but DH2 is still mostly this way: The PCs will die, go insane, or become the villains at some point. Every day is a gift, every roll of the dice a flirtation with death and dismemberment. Eventually your character will have stared too long into the abyss and her number is up, no getting around it. Getting body parts replaced with machine parts is integral to the setting. Something horrible happen? That's what fate points are for.

What are the ages involved here? The way you put it makes her seem incredibly immature.

That's how I've done it so far. The problem arises when she steals the show, in that nobody can see her at all when she is sneaking up and assassinating Severan Dominate soldiers. Any situation where her stealth can't help her out (or an enemy that can see through it) leads to her thinking it is a matter of character sniping, that I'm purposefully trying to target her in a way that negates her one skill.

Then the rules-lawyering comes out, in that she begins meticulously counting out her own bonuses and trying to call me out on the enemies' bonuses and penalties as well. She tries to start a rules argument at the table so that the other players will help preserve her powergaming. I tend not to give in but am getting real sick of the arguments at the table, especially since anything I've done to try and combat it the players spin as me trying to assert control over them and kill off their players or something.

Quite simply, it is a mess.

I totally sympathize with you having to deal with a munchkin. There is only one way to deal with a true munchkin. Exile.

I know this is hard, but if one player is ******* up the game for everyone......

The next session she was told that because they couldn't roll well enough to acquire a common-quality cybernetic leg, she got a poor one, with everything that entailed. Immediately she declared that "Her build was ruined, her character is going to commit suicide" and then arguing on and on for a common quality leg. Finally, I told her that any penalties to stealth from her leg would be situational at best, and probably none too common. Nevertheless, there were complaints the whole session.

What I would have told her is that while she gets the poor-quality leg now, she can try for a better leg any time I let her do an acquisition roll. Until then, she has to put up with it.

What kind of weapon is she using ?

I think what I'd do is if the players approach enemies undetected (likely if she is scouting ahead), then give her a roll to notice a convenient perch. For example, it's a location where any NPC taking cover from the PCs attack will be exposed to her.

So if she manages to sneak up there and wait until the players start shooting, she will have an easy time picking players off. If she attacks first, NPCs take cover from her, leaving them expose to the other PCs.

But if she fails the stealth, or gets into trouble up there, the rest of the party will have trouble helping her.

I don't think Dark Heresy is the game she wants to be playing. DH1 was very much this way, but DH2 is still mostly this way: The PCs will die, go insane, or become the villains at some point. Every day is a gift, every roll of the dice a flirtation with death and dismemberment. Eventually your character will have stared too long into the abyss and her number is up, no getting around it. Getting body parts replaced with machine parts is integral to the setting. Something horrible happen? That's what fate points are for.

What are the ages involved here? The way you put it makes her seem incredibly immature.

I'm quite surprised that people are playing DH2 as if it were a PVP game.

I think you should start by talking to people what 40k is all about and so they know how Grim the Future really is. One life is nothing to the Imperium, let alone to Inquisition. Only Space Marines got a chance to surviving battles for hundreds of years and this would mean they pick up Terminator armour somewhere on the road.

It seems like Virtual games f***ed up her idea about RPG. Maybe you can start that this is rather a PVE world but more leaning towards try to get things done before s**t hits the fan. And you should count on it that s**t will hit the fan, rather sooner than later.

Another thing, she was the previous GM? How did she run the game? Munchkin style or trying to kill off all PC's?

I really feel for you cpteveros, it sounds like you need to educate this girl in gaming etiquette.

Maybe try to explain it to her in person outside gaming. Agree on some rules:

1) the story is more important than playing by the exact rules, you can make suggestions on how it gets played but people should get more immersed in the experience, picturing themselves in the action.

We play an adapted version of Marvel RPG, and what I find very helpful is to imagine that every PC's action is a drawing in a comic. So you rather explain what you are doing that saying: "I'm making a half-aimed attack vs the Cultist."

You should get used to see the fun in failed actions as well. Just imagining it makes it funny and more bearable. And again, be prepared for bad things to happen, this is 40k.

2) no real rules discussion during sessions, GM has final saying

Another thing would be to put more emphasis on the investigation and narrative part. Sure combat is important but your character should also have personality and a way to interact with the world around him/her.

Although I can really understand her point of view because 40k is so different as an RPG setting, you are not the good-guys and the Inquisitor you are working for might well be a radical. In my current campaign the internal battles in the Inquisition are as important as the missions itselfs. This makes 40k really come to life for me: a FUBAR universe.

BTW, being in need for good bionic parts, makes a perfect occasion to get friendly with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Always nice to play out how they interact with the world

Make her realise that in the universe of man, more technology is lost than there is rediscovered in the 41st Millenium. Inventions are Heresy so go figure with all those wars going on and the occasional exterminatus.

Did you tell her that arguments like this, especially at the table, are making you enjoy the game less? Again, ask her to help you enjoy the game by not arguing with you, ask her what she wants, and then promise her that she WILL get it so long as she is patient.

Sorry, OP, but it sounds like you're going to need to take a firm hand with this person. WH40k has a lot of themes and one of them is the slow descent into death, corruption, and insanity. It sounds like she has very particular ideas about what her character will be and is annoyed when those ideas are toyed with.

It happens when you really like a character and have a specific vision for them. It has happened to me too.

Players in DH do not have any mechanical support for taking control of the narrative outside of Fate Points. It is not a narratively focused system.

Try to sympathize with her first. Yes, it sucks that your character got her leg shot off, but that's life. If the character overcomes this, she's better for it, right?

If you go in aggressively telling her she's not playing 40k right, you're not going to succeed.

Edit: Ugh this post is all over the place and unfocused and I hate it, but basically see it from her point of view before addressing the problem again.

I'm quite surprised that people are playing DH2 as if it were a PVP game.

I'm not talking about PVP. I'm talking about the incredibly unforgiving combat damage system and the two tracks that tell you exactly how close to out of the game you are. Every time a PC gains an insanity or corruption point that's one step closer to game over if they're lucky enough to not catch a bullet to the brain before they get there. That's how 40k RPG is and if you're (the general you) not on board with it (and it sounds like this problem player isn't) this isn't the game for you.

Put down the koolaid. The 40k line is one of the least lethal systems out there.

Everyone at the table ranges from 18-20 years of age so it isn't necessarily an adolescent, just someone mad they didn't get their way.

A couple sessions ago, she got really angry because the squad didn't want to spend their only chance for an acquisition that session on a combat shotgun for her. Keep in mind, everyone already has a weapon and she already had a regular pump shotgun. However, she "needed that combat shotgun or her build was useless" and when the squad told her no, she then crossed her arms and told them she wasn't going to stealth or help them that session then. It took a solid 20 minutes to talk her out of that but it was ridiculous.

I will be talking to her tonight, and if it happens again she may get kicked.

I think you just killed my brain, bud. A stealth focused person using a shotgun (good luck silencing that without stummers...) is kind of...silly. If you're going for loud, you may as well sneak around with a proper rocket or grenade launcher. The latter is an excellent choice as is, because arguably it doesn't make more than a quiet "thunk" when firing as is and has no muzzle flash. Shotgun is just dumb, though. Not only does it not do enough damage, it reveals her position to anyone in shooting range.

I think you just killed my brain, bud. A stealth focused person using a shotgun (good luck silencing that without stummers...) is kind of...silly.

Agreed. Though the rules do allow a silence on a shotgun. So we seem to be talking about a minmaxer who doesn't care about anything beyond the RAW.

I suggest checking page 148 for how loud guns are. Note that it explicitly calls for GM discretion.

Now note that the silencer doesn't silence any weapon, it only halves the distance at which it can be heard.

she then crossed her arms and told them she wasn't going to stealth or help them that session then. It took a solid 20 minutes to talk her out of that but it was ridiculous.

I will be talking to her tonight, and if it happens again she may get kicked.

Remind her that there will be consequences to her character if she carries that threat out. An Inquisitor isn't likely to be happy about an acolyte refusing to work because she doesn't get the weapon she wants.

Luckily we have moved past these incidents, but it forces the game to a standstill and calls for the entire table trying to persuade the player to be reasonable. I have a session today and I will see how things go, but I am definitely letting everyone know that stopping the game isn't cool and isn't something I want to deal with.

These are the kinds of stories that really make me appreciate my players.

Anyway, please let us know how things went today.