Hey all.

To the point, one of my PCs has a jetpack and it is throwing off my entire game, and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong as far as ruling.

Per the CRB, a jetpack allows an individual to behave as a Sil 1 vehicle with a Speed of 1. My player discovered that "Speed 1" means planetary scale, since personal scale doesn't have speed values, and that traveling one range band in planetary scale is equivalent to traveling extreme range in personal scale. Thus my player and I have determined that, as a Sil 1 vehicle, he logically can use the fly/drive maneuver to move from extreme to engaged as a maneuver.

This is obviously problematic. Last night, they were on Mustafar and a sniper (a Nemesis that I had worked hard to make an interesting, scary villain) had them pinned down from Extreme range. My jetpack player used a maneuver to engage the sniper, used an action to toss a thermal detonator at him, and then took two strain to use another maneuver and fly back from extreme range to the rest of my PCs. I made him make Pilot checks for the maneuvers, but he has four ranks in the skill and four ranks of the Skilled Jockey talent so he ignored all setback dice, Needless to say the sniper was toast.

This didn't sit well with me at all. He flew a mile, threw a detonator, and then flew a mile back. In, like, the soan of a minute. There is literally no where that I can place a villain that is out of range of my players. And now my 10-soak melee juggernaut is talking about getting a jetpack...

The player argues that per RAW, the jetpack is totally being used as it should, but this just feels wrong and incredibly overpowered. I can't think of any instances in the films where a character uses a jetpack to travel so far so fast. Am I ruling jetpacks wrong? How do I fix this?

High skill characters can and will trivialise encounters.

If he had put the investment in guns he'd had just vaporised him with a blaster.

Just remember that it's a piece of gear that can get damaged like any other. Start thinking about using threats and despairs that the character rolls to cause jetpack complications. Same goes for advantages/triumphs for NPCs. If you really wanted, you could even use the two setback aim rules to have an opponent specifically target and damage the jetpack. And if all else fails, you've got dark side points to flip. Suddenly the fuel runs out mid-flight and the character has to make a coordination check not to take falling damage.

Don't forget that the player essentially starts at speed 0 and will need to use a pilot-only maneuver to accelerate to to speed 1, then he'll have to use a second pilot-only maneuver to traverse range bands. So to cross to extreme + attack, the player will have to spend some strain. since that is 2 pilot-only maneuvers in one turn, the Jet pack could logically suffer system strain as well. The Jet Pack has no system strain threshold but you can translate this into other effects.

Another note, doing anything that requires a skill check while piloting your Jet Pack is going to be more difficult than if you were stationary. This is an ideal time to use Setback dice At least 1, possibly 2 would not be unreasonable. Next, Make liberal use of Destiny points on any checks he uses while flying around. That despair could cause the pack to run out of fuel at the worst time. Finally, A couple of Triumphs on successful attacks against the player could destroy the jet pack out right.

Hey all.

To the point, one of my PCs has a jetpack and it is throwing off my entire game, and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong as far as ruling.

Per the CRB, a jetpack allows an individual to behave as a Sil 1 vehicle with a Speed of 1. My player discovered that "Speed 1" means planetary scale, since personal scale doesn't have speed values, and that traveling one range band in planetary scale is equivalent to traveling extreme range in personal scale. Thus my player and I have determined that, as a Sil 1 vehicle, he logically can use the fly/drive maneuver to move from extreme to engaged as a maneuver.

This is obviously problematic. Last night, they were on Mustafar and a sniper (a Nemesis that I had worked hard to make an interesting, scary villain) had them pinned down from Extreme range. My jetpack player used a maneuver to engage the sniper, used an action to toss a thermal detonator at him, and then took two strain to use another maneuver and fly back from extreme range to the rest of my PCs. I made him make Pilot checks for the maneuvers, but he has four ranks in the skill and four ranks of the Skilled Jockey talent so he ignored all setback dice, Needless to say the sniper was toast.

This didn't sit well with me at all. He flew a mile, threw a detonator, and then flew a mile back. In, like, the soan of a minute. There is literally no where that I can place a villain that is out of range of my players. And now my 10-soak melee juggernaut is talking about getting a jetpack...

The player argues that per RAW, the jetpack is totally being used as it should, but this just feels wrong and incredibly overpowered. I can't think of any instances in the films where a character uses a jetpack to travel so far so fast. Am I ruling jetpacks wrong? How do I fix this?

How did the PC`s see the sniper from extreme range?

Not to mention limiting access to Thermal Detonators... they are Restricted for a reason and aren't available at Mom & Pop's Gun Shop.

Secondly, flip a destiny point and give your bad guy a Jet Pack, shield, tunnel, whatever. Let him think he kills him... cause honestly, it's not like he was watching the bad guy while all of that happened. Or give the Villain a chance to throw the detonator away from him. Opposed Hot Potato. Because you control when the Detonator goes off... it's not like a blaster that the damage is instant and immediate. There is a timer, and if he wants to control the time, he has to give up some of his fancy flying (or roll some really difficult rolls with setbacks and reds).

I'm no expert, but there has to be some problem with an unprotected, squishy body moving from 0 MPH to around 120 MPH in a few seconds twice in a minute.

I have found your solution. Page 224 of the Edge of the Empire core rulebook:

Speed 0 indicates a stationary ship or vehicle, with higher values indicating an increased speed accordingly {speed 1, for example, might be a slow moving AT-AT walker or ponderous transport ship, while speed 5 might be a nimble TIE fighter or cloud car).

This is how i would have ran this scenario....

Before initiative, Sniper gets a free shot, Nemesis has two initiative slots per turn via optional rule.

Initiative...

Player with JP, Roll perception... 3P 2 setback, Sniper behind cover, Environmental lava conditions causing haze decreases visibility.

Assume sees sniper,

Ok roll piloting check to go from 0 to 1... This turn your accelerating you wont reach him untill next turn.

Sniper shoots again...at its first init slot .. and then at end of round..

ROund 2

Player with JP.... ok piloting check average, mustafars a dangerous place with vents and gasses about..

OH ok you want to attack, OK ranged light VS 2p 1 setback for flying, 1 setback for environmental, 1 setback for cover and 3 NEMESIS upgrade...

so your pool is Range light VS, 2 Red 1 purple, 3 black...... OH was that 3 Threat or a despair?.

Your jet pack just ran out of fuel going "SPEED 1" over a lava vent...Splat... Next!!!...

Bottom line your being too nice.. Your nemesis should have had enough Adversary to make a hit with flying jepack grenade attack almost imposible..

1. I think it's a minor red flag that he is arguing rules in the way you describe. It makes it sounds as though you've had a conversation about his actions being pretty out of theme and generally difficult to design encounters for and he has not responded positively.

2. Kaosoe has the right of it RAW; your PC needs to use a maneuver to increase his speed and another to traverse the distance. So your NPC baddie should have at least one round to hit your PC from Short range.

Here's another idea off the cuff:

If your group wants mobile battle in the air, ******* give it to them. Have them face swoop bikes and vehicles with mounted weapons and all sorts of that ****. Give them Mad Max in space. Drop the goram Deathwatch on them. Minions blasting at them with carbines and rifles while Rivals circle around the party with jetpacks and flamethrowers and grenades. A Nemesis with Force Move swatting your PCs out of the air (Oh ****, better make this Coordination/Piloting check or you're going to crash for serious damage)

The crux of the encounter is how did your PC find him? Without some kind of enhanced sight/scanner and/or lots of ranks in Perception/Vigilance, it's unlikely the PC would have found the sniper. Further, snipers traditionally use camoflauge, stealth and suppressors to avoid detection. So, on top of the base difficulty of seeing him that far out, there's the counter technology that would be used to further avoid detection.

With respect to the movement, I think kaosoe has the right of it. It's easy enough to get there in one round. However, getting back in the same round is something I wouldn't allow. 1 maneuver to go from 0->1 speed, 1 maneuver to get 'next' to the sniper (assuming he knows where he's going), then he's out of maneuvers and has to rely on his action.

My player discovered that "Speed 1" means planetary scale, since personal scale doesn't have speed values, and that traveling one range band in planetary scale is equivalent to traveling extreme range in personal scale.

Core book pg 225, breakout box in the top left corner. Whiles vehicle generally operate at planetary scale, the GM is the ultimate decision maker when it comes to the scale being used in an encounter.

Under a Black Sun Pg 36: A character with a Jetpack can ignore difficult terrain and move vertically, but otherwise moves as normal.

Enter the unknown Pg 23: A Toydarian can ignore difficult terrain, but otherwise moves as normal.

I can't remember the page or book: A probe droid can ignore difficult terrain, but otherwise moves as normal.

So I translate all that to say... When at vehicle scale the Jetpack counts as a vehicle with a speed of 2, when at personal it allows the character to ignore terrain and move vertically, but otherwise they must move normally.

Justification: Planetary scale is large and the movement broader and bigger, so big sweeping high speed maneuvers can be executed. Personal scale flight requires much more detailed maneuvering and more defined positions, so you have to move more slowly to hit your marks.

Examples in source material:

Deathwatch/Black Sun attack on Jabba's Palace (Clone Wars): The Mandos drop from their assault craft and are free flying in open sky supporting other air/spacecraft in the assault. The encounter was written as a (simple) vehicle encounter, and at planetary scale so the mandos could fly normally. Once they get into the melee at teh gate they switch to personal scale and hover around moving normally.

Kamino Landing Pad (AotC): Jango doesn't make many crazy moves here, mostly just hovering at Personal Shortish range to keep the saber away.

Geonosis Arena (AotC): The box was at (surprisingly) only personal medium range from the arena floor. Jango used his jetpack and moved to move vertically from the box to the ground safely following Windu's force jump (which maxes out at Medium Range).

Sarlacc (RotJ): Boba used his jetpack to double move from the sailbarge to the skiff (Long Range, 3PO had to shout) ignoring intervening terrain (Om nom nom)

Congratulate the players on almost breaking the game, then lay down the law and get back to blasting troopers.

one of my PCs has a jetpack

This should never, ever happen. You learned the hard way.

Jet Packs have a System Strain Threshold of 3. Taking a second Pilot Maneuver costs two (2) Strain and two (2) System Strain to the vehicle (pg 232 EotE CBR). System Strain cannot be recovered with Advantage.

So your PC can take the second Maneuver but only once, unless he wants to fall out of the sky. Taking off (ie. increasing speed) is a Maneuver but you do move the distance, however Landing may require two Maneuvers (one to slow down and one to land without injury).

Don't forget the Maneuver to draw the TD (although that could be done the turn before)...

2. Kaosoe has the right of it RAW; your PC needs to use a maneuver to increase his speed and another to traverse the distance. So your NPC baddie should have at least one round to hit your PC from Short range.

Yup, there's a reason Boba Fett didn't get a shot off before Luke could cut his carbine in half after he flew from Jabbas pleasure barge to the skip Luke was on.

Boba made one maneuver to ignite the jetpack (increasing speed) and one to travel to the skip.

I read in the EotE Core Rulebook that 1 speed in atmo and 1 speed in space are two different speeds, because of no atmospheric resistance and that, so jetpack would be planetary scale speed wouldn`t it`?

I remember reading it when I was going to run a chase encounter with a big ship and speeders in traffic on Nar Shaddaa.

I read in the EotE Core Rulebook that 1 speed in atmo and 1 speed in space are two different speeds, because of no atmospheric resistance and that, so jetpack would be planetary scale speed wouldn`t it`?

I remember reading it when I was going to run a chase encounter with a big ship and speeders in traffic on Nar Shaddaa.

Thats mostly just handwavium to explain how range bands in space are so much bigger then on a planet. Really the exact distance of a range band is pretty much irrelevant when you think about it....

Place your villains inside, for starters. Set venues like undersea compounds, asteroid mining cities, ancient Sith temple ruins, etc. None of these places favour jetpack use. You can also put them inside starships often as well.

Jetpacks also require fuel and should have limited use capability.

Landing may require two Maneuvers (one to slow down and one to land without injury).

I hadn't even given consideration to landing. It's definitely a maneuver to slow down, but I'm not sure it should be one to land (assuming he's slowed to Speed 0) because the text is something like "moves normally" If he doesn't slow down, he definitely needs a tough Piloting check to land without major injury.

But that raises a related question. Does he throw the TD while moving at Speed 1?

Or should he need to do something like this:

- Maneuver to go from Speed 0 to Speed 1

- Maneuver to reach the NPC

- Maneuver to stop (Speed 0)

- Action throwing the TD

-Maneuver to Speed 1

-Maneuver to fly away

So that's about three rounds. Presumably he could attempt the combat Action at Speed 1 with some Setback or Upgrade (Setback seems right, but I'm not sure) which would maybe allow him to manage it in two rounds, but then I wonder if he needs a Pilot check to avoid crashing into the building the NPC is in since he's doing a hairpin turn. Or maybe you just have him check incoming and add the Setbacks?

I'm with everyone else here. There's a reason jetpacks are included in the game - because PCs want cool stuff - but you have to respect how the movies, TV shows, and video games have handled them. Allowing your player the freedom to essentially leap to extreme range is... well, it was probably a bad GM call, really, but one I can completely understand. Sometimes its easy to get bogged down with rules, and you have to make spot calls, and maybe you regret it when it seems it's too powerful.

Definitely add maneuvers to the mix. Give setback dice when trying to spot things at extreme range. And I'd really consider upgrading any attacks made while flying at full speed, especially when attacking a stationary target. It's a lot harder than you'd imagine.

I think kaosoe and Ghostofman summed up about everything I was going to say, so I'll just reference their posts. And keep in mind: the sniper gets to pick which of the unsuspecting characters he shoots at first. If I was running him, I'd drop the one with the jetpack right out of the gate and then worry about the others later.

Landing may require two Maneuvers (one to slow down and one to land without injury).

I hadn't even given consideration to landing. It's definitely a maneuver to slow down, but I'm not sure it should be one to land (assuming he's slowed to Speed 0) because the text is something like "moves normally" If he doesn't slow down, he definitely needs a tough Piloting check to land without major injury.

But that raises a related question. Does he throw the TD while moving at Speed 1?

Or should he need to do something like this:

- Maneuver to go from Speed 0 to Speed 1

- Maneuver to reach the NPC

- Maneuver to stop (Speed 0)

- Action throwing the TD

-Maneuver to Speed 1

-Maneuver to fly away

So that's about three rounds. Presumably he could attempt the combat Action at Speed 1 with some Setback or Upgrade (Setback seems right, but I'm not sure) which would maybe allow him to manage it in two rounds, but then I wonder if he needs a Pilot check to avoid crashing into the building the NPC is in since he's doing a hairpin turn. Or maybe you just have him check incoming and add the Setbacks?

Also, the PC didn't stick around to make sure the sniper was actually dead, so the sniper lives to see another day! This time taking out the guy with the jetpack!

Snipers don't set up in the open, not smart ones anyway. They also conceal themselves, the smart ones.

I recommend going and listening to the Order 66 episode 11? The list strikes back. There is another episode where they talk about the jet pack in reference to one of the adventures. Something about the area the battle takes place in making it so piloting checks are needed....I am sure someone else here will remember which episode that was....cause I never listen...