I think what TLT really does is open up way more variety of list especially in scum. Every Tom **** and Harry will have to get off the aggressor crutch. Yep they on paper are strong against TLT but scum has Kavil and as well as latts either of those really start to help get the damage through the IG both have good health and you still have points for a third ship, hell a z or scyk can get damage though agility 2. And are we all forgetting R3A2 stress still means no k turn or sloop , can also mean no actions , a y wing with TLT don't need to k turn now to keep up the pressure either even more fun if they are Horton as now he gets his pilot ability kicking in without even trying oh and wait would you really want to say sloop onto say a corner net ?

No 4 y wings with TLT my not be hot against aggressors but combinations with them will be. Also don't the r1 donut hole kinda pairs well with the r1 limit of the blaster turret? Jump from one frying pans into the fire?

Oh the fun to be had now the meta will truly be shook up

Jonus brothers: Captain Jonus, 2x Onyx Sq. Pilots+HLC.

Hell yes. One of my favorite lists, and I can't wait to dig it out against the TLTs.

I think what TLT really does is open up way more variety of list especially in scum. Every Tom **** and Harry will have to get off the aggressor crutch. Yep they on paper are strong against TLT but scum has Kavil and as well as latts either of those really start to help get the damage through the IG both have good health and you still have points for a third ship, hell a z or scyk can get damage though agility 2. And are we all forgetting R3A2 stress still means no k turn or sloop , can also mean no actions , a y wing with TLT don't need to k turn now to keep up the pressure either even more fun if they are Horton as now he gets his pilot ability kicking in without even trying oh and wait would you really want to say sloop onto say a corner net ?

No 4 y wings with TLT my not be hot against aggressors but combinations with them will be. Also don't the r1 donut hole kinda pairs well with the r1 limit of the blaster turret? Jump from one frying pans into the fire?

Oh the fun to be had now the meta will truly be shook up

I tend to feel the opposite way, that if TLT becomes A Thing we'll see more Aggressors because a) Iggy's strong against TLT and b) stuff that Iggy's got to be wary of (arc-dodging fatties, Soontir) are the TLT's natural prey.

Iggy is strong against 1 TLT. He'll have a lot more problems against 4.

Have you guys ran or ran against 4 TLT's yet? I've done both and dear god it is mean. If you are only theorycrafting right now then get out there and fly em or against them. If you guys hated PWT's then just wait. I'm calling it right now Gencon 2016 will be won by 4 y-wings with TLT

In some ways I'm thinking 4x TLTs (especially Ys) is the evolution of BBBB*. It's a truckload of HP and a truckload of dice, but it's better than BBBB* because it can concentrate fire much better. It doesn't have to guess at moves and can't have arcs avoided nearly as well. The downside is reduced max damage, but that is probably wholly made up for by having a 360 degree weapon. If traditional Fat Turrets are hybrids of Turrets and Arc Dodgers, then TLT swarms are hybrids of Jousters and Turrets. This is still theory (sorry AFP), but I think that opposing lists will probably try and set their lists up to get a Turn 1 PS kill on a Y-wing. I you can do that, you save yourself a little grief, and you make it a lot easier to get ships into the Range 1 gap.

TLTs by themselves might make PS4 TIE Bombers interesting. I don't know of a better Alpha Striker for the cost than a Gamma Squadron Pilot.

Thought Experiment:

2x Autothruster Saber Squadron Pilots with PTL = 52 points

2x Gamma Squadron Pilots with Extra Munitions, Proton Torpedo = 48

Probably kills a Y on the Range 3 engagement, and is pretty resistant to their firepower. Interceptors can close and control range pretty well at that point.

Have you guys ran or ran against 4 TLT's yet? I've done both and dear god it is mean. If you are only theorycrafting right now then get out there and fly em or against them. If you guys hated PWT's then just wait. I'm calling it right now Gencon 2016 will be won by 4 y-wings with TLT

In some ways I'm thinking 4x TLTs (especially Ys) is the evolution of BBBB*. It's a truckload of HP and a truckload of dice, but it's better than BBBB* because it can concentrate fire much better. It doesn't have to guess at moves and can't have arcs avoided nearly as well. The downside is reduced max damage, but that is probably wholly made up for by having a 360 degree weapon. If traditional Fat Turrets are hybrids of Turrets and Arc Dodgers, then TLT swarms are hybrids of Jousters and Turrets. This is still theory (sorry AFP), but I think that opposing lists will probably try and set their lists up to get a Turn 1 PS kill on a Y-wing. I you can do that, you save yourself a little grief, and you make it a lot easier to get ships into the Range 1 gap.

It's not theorycraft for me, and you're spot on. 4x TLT is a very good list, and it's especially good against a lot of current metagame lists. But it has a couple of Achilles' heels (principally the donut and its necessarily low PS), and it can be beaten.

Basically, I think Wave 7 is going to force a meta shift, but that doesn't mean it's unbalanced.

I think what TLT really does is open up way more variety of list especially in scum. Every Tom **** and Harry will have to get off the aggressor crutch. Yep they on paper are strong against TLT but scum has Kavil and as well as latts either of those really start to help get the damage through the IG both have good health and you still have points for a third ship, hell a z or scyk can get damage though agility 2. And are we all forgetting R3A2 stress still means no k turn or sloop , can also mean no actions , a y wing with TLT don't need to k turn now to keep up the pressure either even more fun if they are Horton as now he gets his pilot ability kicking in without even trying oh and wait would you really want to say sloop onto say a corner net ?

No 4 y wings with TLT my not be hot against aggressors but combinations with them will be. Also don't the r1 donut hole kinda pairs well with the r1 limit of the blaster turret? Jump from one frying pans into the fire?

Oh the fun to be had now the meta will truly be shook up

I tend to feel the opposite way, that if TLT becomes A Thing we'll see more Aggressors because a) Iggy's strong against TLT and b) stuff that Iggy's got to be wary of (arc-dodging fatties, Soontir) are the TLT's natural prey.

Iggy is strong against 1 TLT. He'll have a lot more problems against 4.

Two IGs will melt a Y, at a conservative estimate, every other turn. The big base helps them exploit the doughnut hole, so focussing fire on one of them will be tough. They've got the speed, PS and boost action to help them control range and to engage and disengage on their own terms, and the action economy and Autothrusters to make them as tough a target as there is for the TLT.

I'm not saying it's an autowin or anything, just that it feels to me like Brobots is probably the toughest matchup for TLTs in the current meta. And that TLTs might help suppress a few lists that dual Aggressors are more vulnerable to.

Have you guys ran or ran against 4 TLT's yet? I've done both and dear god it is mean. If you are only theorycrafting right now then get out there and fly em or against them. If you guys hated PWT's then just wait. I'm calling it right now Gencon 2016 will be won by 4 y-wings with TLT

In some ways I'm thinking 4x TLTs (especially Ys) is the evolution of BBBB*. It's a truckload of HP and a truckload of dice, but it's better than BBBB* because it can concentrate fire much better. It doesn't have to guess at moves and can't have arcs avoided nearly as well. The downside is reduced max damage, but that is probably wholly made up for by having a 360 degree weapon. If traditional Fat Turrets are hybrids of Turrets and Arc Dodgers, then TLT swarms are hybrids of Jousters and Turrets. This is still theory (sorry AFP), but I think that opposing lists will probably try and set their lists up to get a Turn 1 PS kill on a Y-wing. I you can do that, you save yourself a little grief, and you make it a lot easier to get ships into the Range 1 gap.

It's not theorycraft for me, and you're spot on. 4x TLT is a very good list, and it's especially good against a lot of current metagame lists. But it has a couple of Achilles' heels (principally the donut and its necessarily low PS), and it can be beaten.

Basically, I think Wave 7 is going to force a meta shift, but that doesn't mean it's unbalanced.

same, got a lot of silly games in and the TLTs consistently fell to superior jousters (mainly z-95s) and a phantom (except for Miri). They're much better at dealing with 2-ship builds because of the range 2-3 360 advantage, but much worse at dealing with jousters because they can't move for **** (no large base boost @ high PS).

Truth be told, the generics (while undeniably useful) simply did not impressive as much as Miranda.

I have no idea how anyone can fly a fat PWT when Miranada (TLT + c3po), the miniature Han, just feels like I'm cheating (less a product of TLT itself, more of a combination between it, c3po, and her ability)

Still flying her, though. It's time for some much needed revenge on some of the PWT users in my area

I think what TLT really does is open up way more variety of list especially in scum. Every Tom **** and Harry will have to get off the aggressor crutch. Yep they on paper are strong against TLT but scum has Kavil and as well as latts either of those really start to help get the damage through the IG both have good health and you still have points for a third ship, hell a z or scyk can get damage though agility 2. And are we all forgetting R3A2 stress still means no k turn or sloop , can also mean no actions , a y wing with TLT don't need to k turn now to keep up the pressure either even more fun if they are Horton as now he gets his pilot ability kicking in without even trying oh and wait would you really want to say sloop onto say a corner net ?

No 4 y wings with TLT my not be hot against aggressors but combinations with them will be. Also don't the r1 donut hole kinda pairs well with the r1 limit of the blaster turret? Jump from one frying pans into the fire?

Oh the fun to be had now the meta will truly be shook up

I tend to feel the opposite way, that if TLT becomes A Thing we'll see more Aggressors because a) Iggy's strong against TLT and b) stuff that Iggy's got to be wary of (arc-dodging fatties, Soontir) are the TLT's natural prey.

Iggy is strong against 1 TLT. He'll have a lot more problems against 4.

So I wasted the last hour, mostly to see if I could, setting up an excel simulation for each ship duking it out with YYYY. Here are the rules I figured:

Max number allowed per 100 points (ie you can bring 6 bombers)

Attacking always has focus

Defending does not have focus

Everything shoots every round (yes I realize that isn't accurate, it's assuming the YYYY player is the master at always shooting, and same for the other player)

The YYYY shoots second

When total damage exceeds multiple of the respective squad's hp, a ship is removed (ie 0-8 damage dealt to YYYY removes 1 ship, 1-15 removes 2 etc)

Tie Bomber (6) Win Round 7 - 3 remaining

Tie Adv (4) Lose Round 5 - 3 remaining

firespray (3) Lose Round 8 - 1 remaining

lambda (4) Win Round 6 - 2 remaining

Defender (3) Lose Round 5 - 2 remaining

Tie Fighter (8) Win Round 5 - 5 remaining

Punisher (4) Lose Round 8 - 2 remaining

Decimator (2) Lose Round 5 - 3 remaining

A-wing (6) Win Round 10 - 1 remaining

e-wing (3) Lose Round 4 - 3 remaining

B-wing (4) Win Round 7 - 2 remaining

X-wing (4) Lose Round 5 - 2 remaining

Falcon named (2) Lose Round 4 - 3 remaining

z95 (8) Win Round 5 - 6 remaining

What does this all mean? Not a whole lot. Swarms do pretty well. Big ships do not. Take it with a grain of salt.

This is what? Equivalent to flipping a dollars worth of one type of coin against another set of coins and whomever gets the most heads wins?

More like jousting where both sides don't move. It's based on expected damage dealt vs damage received, based on hp and ship total. The margins are the most meaningful.

Ugh, just had a game against 2 ships with TLT. I thought having all agility 2 would mean I might dodge a few from either bad attack rolls or lucky defense rolls. However I think I only dodged two attacks total. My opponent got 2-3 hits on every attack after modifying, and most of the time he didn't or couldn't modify, just had 2-3 hits already.

It was incredibly brutal and demoralizing. I can't imagine facing a list with 3 or 4 of those darn things. He WAS +11 on hits/crits for the game, which I'm sure skewed it a good deal, but still makes me worried.

4/8 reds > 3/8 greens

but red > green, because **** those fickle guys

Probably literally anything but a two ship build and stuff that has always been bad (unfortunately) like XXX builds. Not necessarily anything that will hard counter it but at least put it on even footing, you know, like this game used to be.

Swarms, BBBB(Z)/Panic Attack, 5x Alpha Squadron Interceptors + 5x Autothrusters, 35 point Soontir and 5x Obsidian TIEs, etc. Something like Blue Lightning seems like it'd clean house unless they were flying the title.

Control the engagement so that on the approach you're out of range and then blast into range one next turn.

A Turretwing fan friend of mine says he has played against 4 TLT Y Wings and he was complaining about how obnoxious it was. Now you know what it's like to drown in turrets. XD

TLT is going to hurt 2-agi ships the most - 3-agi swarmers (Hello, TIE Fighters) have a shot at dodging some of the damage, but their price-per-hitpoint is vulnerable for the aces. 1-agi ships are going to get hit anyway, so it's simply a matter of how long they'll last before they melt. 2-agi... they're paying for defence that probably isn't going to help. They need token stacks for defense that most 2-agi ships will never see, and they don't have the sheer attrition HP of the 1-agi craft.

I'm also mildly puzzled why they let the gun sell for 6pts. I suspect it would have sold just as readily for 7, and it would've made their now-classic "X ships = 100pts" math fit. Those four points might not mean much, but in the right lists, they just might.

I wonder if they planned on this meta when they designed the X-wing buff? I'd feel really bad for Alex Davy if he proudly presented the Ep7 X-wing fix, only to see them melt to TLT-toting Y-wings and never find any traction.

Probably literally anything but a two ship build and stuff that has always been bad (unfortunately) like XXX builds. Not necessarily anything that will hard counter it but at least put it on even footing, you know, like this game used to be.

When was that, exactly? When was everything on an even footing?

Yea turrets are only gonna get stronger now thanks to kwings and TLT's. Miranda is the next fat han between regen and taking 3po.

Is wave 7 legal at worlds? If so, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of han/chewie and Miranda or dash and Miranda lists.

Also will blaster turret ever see the light of day again?

Yea turrets are only gonna get stronger now thanks to kwings and TLT's. Miranda is the next fat han between regen and taking 3po.

Nonsense. No boost, no EPT, worse dial, fewer hit points.

My gut reactions

I still think 3+ agility/evade action/autothrusters are the strongest way to counter TLT, but it needs to be the cheapest per HP you can get. Obsidian Swarm is reasonably cheap for what you get, and can potentially drop Y Wing before they fire. The other strength is that 1 HP TIE's force overkill.

IG's are strong and IG88C got better because you get extra defense when boosting, and you will be boosting to range 1 where possible. They can also do some pretty strong damage with HLC's

Defenders are more expensive per HP than TIE, and I think they will still lose that race, even if they get at range 1.

Another option is to assume all Y Wings will do max damage and just put the cheapest hit points you can on the board. Shuttles. Cheap hit points to grind through. 2.1 squad points per HP is the cheapest I can think of.

Sensor Jammer is strong, as it will generally cancel 1 hit per ship. Most ships can't double focus, so even if they spend it on the first shot, they won't have it on the second.

Yea turrets are only gonna get stronger now thanks to kwings and TLT's. Miranda is the next fat han between regen and taking 3po.

Nonsense. No boost, no EPT, worse dial, fewer hit points.

as above

Miri will be a thing, but she's not "the next fat han." She's mini-han, the diet coke of Han (only 38 points, NOT FAT ENOUGH).

The K-wing is a beautifully balanced and gloriously silly ship that makes it possible to play something close to a PWT without feeling physically ill. Miri embodies this by being stupid tanky, but not immediately terrifying with TLT and she has to give up her shot to reposition with SLAM. The only bursty firepower she gets is her range 1 primary, which she has to hurt herself (and have shields to spend) in order to bump up to normal PWT levels while not benefiting from gunner/predator/another pilot ability. At range 1, recovering shields is just painful (2 measly dice, ugh)

(also Miri + Han won't work because no one's sharing c3po. Miri + dash could be more likely, but she's not terribly great at guarding the doughnut hole because TLT just isn't impressive nexxt to Corran's double-tap)

Incidentally, apart from Miri (Dat ability), the K-wing itself is a horrible TLT platform unless you have no other choice. It's a woefully inefficient platform (+1 shield over a Y for 5 more points, gain SLAM which you can use when shooting) designed to fling around bombs and mines.

This is what? Equivalent to flipping a dollars worth of one type of coin against another set of coins and whomever gets the most heads wins?

Well, if you're running four Ys with TLTs it's more like flipping $100 of coins.

All I know is, I know what crit Maarek is looking for...