I've been looking at black crusade, its definitely the opposite of what i normally play on the "moral scale" if you can even call it such a thing. What interests me though is just how much can be done with the characters and what not.

My question is... can it work for people who don't like playing the bad guy? I mean, no one here is good, and i have this weird idea about a character eventually using the astronomicon to try and create a feedback loop with the golden throne. The guy is insane with a martyr complex and feels that if he damns his soul to do what he thinks will save humanity, so be it.

Can character concepts like this work? Or am i barking up the wrong tree and should go back to dark heresy?

Also random question, has anyone ever had a chaos space marine go riding a heldrake into battle?

Sure. Just stay away from the marks of chaos and daemon weapons and stuff.

• A Renegade SM chapter, declared perdita traitoris, banished from the Imperium and hounded by the inquisition. All that, but still loyal. Sworn to protect the realms of man no matter what.
• The rogue admech who has cast off the chacles of the mechanicum's rituals and superstition, focused on true invention, scientific research and progress.
• The guardsman who broke out of inquisitorial gaol, his crime: doing his duty and seeing the wrong things.
• Those who would use the weapons of chaos against it. Condemned by the inquistion.
• Those who whish to save humanity and view the Imperium as a rotted cage holding mankind captive.
• Those who would ally with traitors for a greater good. (Hydra domniatus!)
• Just because you're the good guy doesn't mean the imperium isn't trying to kill you.

All this stuff (and more) works. Now this works best if all player characters are "on the same team" so to speak. It might be a bitt odd having four renegade marines carrying out their personal crusade to protect the galaxy from the scourge of the xenos and one khorne berzerker. (then again even that might work, if they get him to only slay aliens...)

I mean, no one here is good, and i have this weird idea about a character eventually using the astronomicon to try and create a feedback loop with the golden throne. The guy is insane with a martyr complex and feels that if he damns his soul to do what he thinks will save humanity, so be it.

Way ahead of you, brother. There is no reincarnation without death and we need the Emperor back at any cost.

Thats one of the BC campaigns me and my group played 3 marines left over from the HH and a crazy Korn berserker who INT and leadership skills were so low he basically just followed the group on their crusade against the alien menace and into the eye to kill Abbadon because none of the group wanted him to try and pull rank at some stage

You can always opt to play the tragic hero, thinking he/she is doing good, when he/she is actually furthering the plans of the powers of Chaos.

“Every villain is a hero in his own mind.”

― Tom Hiddleston

“Every villain is a hero in his own mind.”

Indeed. Although it's important to remember that the ruleset is (obviously) heavily biased towards evil people with the kind of consequences various actions evoke, not to mention that one of the most important resources in the game is called "infamy".

It boils down to being able to differentiate between character roleplaying and player opinion. Playing a good guy/gal who merely gets looped into a vicious cycle of bad decisions is no problem at all. But if you as a player don't enjoy playing characters that do bad things, I don't think you're going to have a lot of fun with Black Crusade, and a better choice would be Only War or Rogue Trader. There, the ability to play a genuinely good-natured character still isn't guaranteed (depending on GM and the regiment/trader), but at least way more likely. I'd argue even Dark Heresy isn't very well-suited for good characters, but this is a matter of interpreting the source material.

I mean, you can still play Black Crusade anyways, but I have a feeling you'd have to bend over backwards, unable to utilize half of the rules because they're made for the Dark Side, and of course there is a high likelihood of conflict of interests between the player characters, unless everyone in the group agrees to play a good character.

You could also go full-tilt super villain and embrace the fun that comes with burning a galaxy.

I reckon it can definitely work. As Lynata said the rules tend to assume an evil or at least fallen character but there are always ways to get around it and play a guy with genuine belief in what he is doing and that what he will do will benefit others.

I think the problem with 40K is it's so grimdark that it's assumed the warp is merely corruption. While it has been badly polluted by millenia of war one must remember that the Warp is supposed to be a spiritual representation of all emotions so there should be scope for more positive emotions in there (which are of course not covered in 40K).

Under this ruleset with your character concept you could go with;

Pride: Craftmanship - for someone dedicated to creating such an artifact as would be able to create a feedback loop in the astronomcan.

Disgrace: Dread - Something terrible that happened in the character's past or that they saw which convinces him he must free the Emperor as soon as possible and save the Imperium from the powers that lead it toward corruption, ruin and tyranny

Or you could give him Hubris instead to represent someone who thinks he could genuinely accomplish this goal.

Motivation: Innovation - he seeks to create something so remarkable and unique to accomplish this goal.

Or legacy may be more appropriate as your character is seeking monumental changes on a scale not seen for longer than written records but willing to sacrifice himself to achieve it.

If those don't suit perhaps discuss with your GM house rules for Prides, disgraces and motivation (perhaps renaming them to something more positive) or eliminate them altogether as they are not required to play.

Most people suggest staying unaligned as it means you are not following any god which makes sense. However if the path you want to take does mean you get aligned to a particular god I say go with it. This could represent a God approving of your methods or mentality and being able to touch you through your link with the warp but does not mean that the character follows the god, likes the god or is even aware of the god in question, merely that the god has taken an interest in the character and finds his actions aligned to its particular tastes.

The way that the Imperium is written can also allow you to play the hero as well, attempting to save peoples and cultures from its tyranny can lead to many great adventures. Of course your GM may have to write these himself as BC adventures tend to assume you are a pretty despicable and selfish person (with or without noble goals).

Lastly ignore most of the assumptions and the way the fluff is written in Black Crusade. This may go against the grain somewhat but allows you to play something coming close to even a hero in BC rules.

The problem would be that people will essentially have to "bend over backwards" ... but if the entire party is onboard with this, and everyone wants to play "good rebels", I suppose there is no harm done in trying? Still, I'd rather recommend one of the other games.

What exactly is it that you like on Black Crusade that you think the other games don't cover?

I think the problem with 40K is it's so grimdark that it's assumed the warp is merely corruption. While it has been badly polluted by millenia of war one must remember that the Warp is supposed to be a spiritual representation of all emotions so there should be scope for more positive emotions in there (which are of course not covered in 40K).

Oh, I dunno ... it depends on how you see things. I've got that little pet theory about Saint Celestine that "she" is actually a minor Warp spirit born out of the collective emotional turmoil and feelings of those fanatically devoted crusaders who valiantly fought in the Palatine Schism, and who then possessed the body of a slain Repentia.

There are so many anecdotes in the setting, so many depictions about various "gods" (or incidents that could hint at their participation) that I could at least imagine a cosmology where the Chaos Gods may reign supreme in the Warp, but where there are still many minor independent Warp spirits passing through the Immaterium as loose collections of hopes, dreams and psychic energy, some good and some evil. Most of them get eaten and absorbed by the larger Chaos Gods, but ... who knows, some of them may manage to hide, and at times even intervene in things that concern their portfolio.

Just a thought.

Yep you'd definitely need the group to be made up of like minded individuals to make it work. Otherwise revel in the darkness or as you say Lynata maybe try one of the other lines.

I actually think that concept is pretty cool, it's a shame you don't write for GW or FFG Lynata, I have a feeling I'd really enjoy what you contributed to the line.

I once had a fairly nice Thousand Son chaos sorcerer with a pretty cool human psyker implied-girlfriend, who had a catastrophically retarded and perverted Emperor's Children buddy and a Khorne Berserker who he only narrowly managed to stop from killing him, and from killing random civilians, with his generous gift of Warp Time (+10 WS and Agi has a way of soothing the savage beast). Too bad that campaign went nowhere.

>Still, I'd rather recommend one of the other games.

>What exactly is it that you like on Black Crusade that you think the other games don't cover?

Well, its the one game you are free of the Imperium and free to do whatever you want (until you become a Daemon Prince/get a Mark anyway), other than RT, in which you have a really restrictive rule set.

Well, its the one game you are free of the Imperium and free to do whatever you want (until you become a Daemon Prince/get a Mark anyway), other than RT, in which you have a really restrictive rule set.

Hmmh, good point. Although the "economic" rules of RT are better than BC at allowing you to build a pocket empire.

For simply fighting as non-Imperials, you could also rework the Only War ruleset, which is fairly easy to do thanks to its modular style. A Necromunda gang campaign should be pretty fun!

I have always wanted to use OW for either a Necromunda game, or have the players as an Arbiter/Enforcer precinct.

Hell, we ran a game once where the players pretty much were the 'good guys' - set in a region of independent human space where an Imperial crusade suddenly thunders into view. It quickly transforms more or less into the plot of Star Wars - with the players trying to put together a coalition of warbands and armies to fight off the 'Evil Galactic Empire' and trying to learn to harness the one power that can save them; the Force Warp.

It ended badly, of course, but they were quite a way through the campaign before they realised this.

I'm playing a Renegade who's an assassin sent to track down an arch-heretic, while sabotaging various Chaos plans, assassinating warlords and such, and otherwise screwing with the heretics and traitors who are all around. It can make for some interesting dynamics when you wind up having to choose between doing something really bad for a really really good result or preventing the bad thing but missing out on all the amazing outcomes that would spring from it.

You could always tweak the fluff and go for a either a full on BrightHammer approach (the Chaos Gods are the Lords of Order and allies of the Imperium), or perhaps the Chaos Gods are God and the Imperium is evil(er) (Khorne is the God of honorable combat, competition, and protection, Tzeentch the God of freedom, magic and knowledge, Nurgle the god of Nature, the cycle of life, Slaneesh the god(ess) of perfection, love, art, and the Emperor was even more of an ******* and did things solely for power rather than for the good of humanity)