Hello, I was just perusing the new pilot abilities for some of the leaked Wave 8 information and had a question about The Inquisitor in his shiny new TIE Advanced Prototype. His ability reads: When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3, treat the range of the attack as Range 1.

While at first glance it seems to have no drawbacks as he'll always be rolling 3 attack dice and will deny the use of autothurstors, I was wondering if there might be some unexpected interactions, such as with Carnor Jax and Zertik Strom.

As Carnor Jax prevents ships at range 1 of him from performing focus and evade actions as well as spending focus and evade tokens, does this mean that The Inquisitor will never be able to spend a focus token when firing on Carnor Jax? It's not that big a deal for a ship that can take a TL, but I find the idea amusing to say the least. If that's correct then that would also mean that it's impossible for The Inquisitor to attack Zertik Strom with more than 2 dice (with his primary) as Zertik takes away combat bonuses from enemy ships at range 1 of him.

Am I reading this right?

Edit: grammar and formating.

Nope. It says treat the attack as range 1, not the models. The two abilities you mentioned above are dependant of the distance between the models. So even though the 'attack' is assumed to be at range 1. The models aren't.

Hope that clears it up for you

Nope. It says treat the attack as range 1, not the models. The two abilities you mentioned above are dependant of the distance between the models. So even though the 'attack' is assumed to be at range 1. The models aren't.

Hope that clears it up for you

I don't think that's right. Here's the Inquisitor:

When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3, treat the range of the attack as Range 1.

Here's Jax:

Enemy ships at Range 1 cannot perform focus or evade actions and cannot spend focus or evade tokens.

Here's Strom:

Enemy ships at Range 1 cannot add their range combat bonus when attacking.

The Inquisitor says when you're attacking at Range 2-3, pretend it's Range 1 instead. It doesn't say "for some purposes"; it just says "...treat the range of the attack as Range 1." So when The Inquisitor attacks Carnor Jax, that's an attack at Range 1, and he can't spend a focus token to modify his dice. When the Inquisitor attacks Zertik Strom, he can't add a bonus die.

Any other interpretation leads off in bizarre directions. There is one and only one range measurement as part of the attack, and if it's The Inquisitor attacking, that range measurement is either 1 or 4+.

Nope. It says treat the attack as range 1, not the models. The two abilities you mentioned above are dependant of the distance between the models. So even though the 'attack' is assumed to be at range 1. The models aren't.

Hope that clears it up for you

As the range of the attack depends on the physical distance between the models, I could just as easily argue that if the attack is being treated as range 1, then the models must be treated as being in range 1 of each other, at least for the duration of the attack.

According to your interpretation, Carnor Jax would be able to treat his 'defense' as range 3 (if the physical distance is 3 of course) and use autothrustors and the extra evade die, but that would mean that one player is treating the attack as range 1 while the other is treating it as range 3.

Any other interpretation leads off in bizarre directions. There is one and only one range measurement as part of the attack, and if it's The Inquisitor attacking, that range measurement is either 1 or 4+.

This seems like the cleanest and simplest solution to me.

I'm with Vorpal and Darth on this one - the only stipulation would be that Jax's ability would not block The Inquisitor from performing focus and evade actions outside R1 as his ability only triggers during the attack phase

The Inquisitor says when you're attacking at Range 2-3, pretend it's Range 1 instead. It doesn't say "for some purposes"; it just says "...treat the range of the attack as Range 1." So when The Inquisitor attacks Carnor Jax, that's an attack at Range 1, and he can't spend a focus token to modify his dice. When the Inquisitor attacks Zertik Strom, he can't add a bonus die.

Any other interpretation leads off in bizarre directions. There is one and only one range measurement as part of the attack, and if it's The Inquisitor attacking, that range measurement is either 1 or 4+.

But the problem with this interpretation is that Jax's and Strom's abilities are measured separately from the attack measurement - that much is obvious any time an enemy attacks a target other than them. So the Inquisitor picks a target at range 2-3 (Jax or Strom or someone else), and treats that attack's range as 1. Then, when it comes time to add a bonus die or spend a focus, you would measure from Jax or Strom to determine whether their ability applies. I don't think that the Inquisitor's ability (and choice of target) would factor into this measurement.

An important thing to note here is that if my interpretation is correct, then the Inquisitor's ability would also have no effect on Autothrusters ("When defending, if you are beyond Range 2..."). It would only affect the attack and defense bonus dice. So...was there an official source that said the Inquisitor cancels out Autothrusters, or was that just the consensus?

According to your interpretation, Carnor Jax would be able to treat his 'defense' as range 3 (if the physical distance is 3 of course) and use autothrustors and the extra evade die, but that would mean that one player is treating the attack as range 1 while the other is treating it as range 3.

According to my interpretation, which I think is similar to Rauhughes', the defender wouldn't get the extra evade die, but could use Autothrusters. Both players would be treating the attack as Range 1, while treating the models as Range 3.

This would also mean beneficial synergies that are related to range during attacks could extend all the way to range 3. Cant think of what any of those are right now, but there must be something, lol.

For me, this is clear as day. Carnor's ability states "Enemy ships at Range 1 [...]". Inquisitor's ability states "[...] treat the range of the attack as Range 1."

Treat the range of the attack. Not the ship. The ship is never assumed to be at any range other than what it currently is at.

I don't see how the ship's range and range of the attack are different. The attack occurs as if it was at range 1. For all purposes (like resolving ability interactions) the range is 1. You are at range 3 but I shoot you at range 1. You either have a shot at range 1 or a shot at range 3, but not both.

You measure once for the range for the shot, however, the inquisitor's ability overrules whatever you came up with.

For Jax it would make it weird. You could gain a focus token but not use it.

For Zerik, you would always be at 2 dice primary.

Autothrusters would never trigger.

And all other range dependent abilities and interactions all configure off of the range 1 determination.

The Inquisitor says when you're attacking at Range 2-3, pretend it's Range 1 instead. It doesn't say "for some purposes"; it just says "...treat the range of the attack as Range 1." So when The Inquisitor attacks Carnor Jax, that's an attack at Range 1, and he can't spend a focus token to modify his dice. When the Inquisitor attacks Zertik Strom, he can't add a bonus die.

Any other interpretation leads off in bizarre directions. There is one and only one range measurement as part of the attack, and if it's The Inquisitor attacking, that range measurement is either 1 or 4+.

But the problem with this interpretation is that Jax's and Strom's abilities are measured separately from the attack measurement - that much is obvious any time an enemy attacks a target other than them. So the Inquisitor picks a target at range 2-3 (Jax or Strom or someone else), and treats that attack's range as 1. Then, when it comes time to add a bonus die or spend a focus, you would measure from Jax or Strom to determine whether their ability applies. I don't think that the Inquisitor's ability (and choice of target) would factor into this measurement.

My issue with this isn't that it's impossible, but that it's... I don't know, baroque? We're adding extra steps. Normally, there's just one range measurement as part of an attack. I'm attacking, and the range measurement is 2, so now we both know what modifiers to add to our dice (none) and we know that Jax's ability isn't in play.

If your ruling were adopted, we'd have multiple measurements (technically). I measure for the Inquisitor's range, and it's 2, which I'm instructed to treat as 1. Then, for any other effect that might come into play during the attack, we have to make a different measurement.

Arguably we should be making them anyway, but now (for the first time) it actually matters that the range between my ship and yours is Range 1 for some purposes but Range 2 for others. It seems simpler to me, and much more manageable, for the Inquisitor to just make everybody treat the distance between the two ships as Range 1 until the attack ends.

Arguably we should be making them anyway, but now (for the first time) it actually matters that the range between my ship and yours is Range 1 for some purposes but Range 2 for others. It seems simpler to me, and much more manageable, for the Inquisitor to just make everybody treat the distance between the two ships as Range 1 until the attack ends.

I favor your interpretation for a few reasons. The first and most important is that The Inquisitor's text does not say to "treat the attack as range 1 for the purposes of dice bonuses;" the implication is that the ships' physical relative positions are not the same as their effective relative positions. There are other ways to achieve the same effect if you are only trying to add a die at range 2-3 ("When attacking at range 2-3 with your primary weapon, roll 1 additional attack die," for example).

Additionally (and these are issues of preference rather than interpretation), a Jax/Strom-favorable reading creates interesting interactions in the game and provides a counter to what I expect to be a very powerful ship.

All of that being said, there is a precedent supporting Pandademic's argument. A ship attacking Jax, for example, may have a range 2 shot within his arc while Jax's closest corner is at range 1 outside of the attacker's arc.

As there are no specific details or FAQ yet to clarify the Inquisitor's Ability, I have to take at face value that the ability "treat the range of the attack as Range 1" applies only to Step 2 of the Combat phase...

This reading, at least, is impermissible. The card says "when attacking", and there's a very strong precedent for interpreting that as something like "throughout this ship's activation in the Combat phase".

I believe you should be able to have effective attack range be different than the ship range. We already see this issue where a ship is at one range but is attacked at a different range. I'll admit that can make things confusing at times.

I don't understand how you can decouple the extra evade die from autothrustors when the condition for using both (in this turret-less case) is the same. Either the defender treats the shot as coming from range 1 or he doesn't, one could just as easily measure after The Inquisitor rolls his attack dice but before rolling for defense to see how many dice to roll and whether he can use autothrustors. The crux of it is this: if The Inquisitor's attack is always treated as range 1, does the defender also treat it as such or do they treat it as the real range? Rephrased, does The Inquisitor's attack last for the entire duration (until damage is or isn't dealt) or does it only last until he rolls his attack dice but before the defender rolls for defense? Obviously I think it's the former.

Also, according to your interpretation Strom's ability would always apply as it's simultaneous with The Inquisitor's ability, they both affect the number of attack dice being rolled.

It's not about the duration of the Inquisitor's effect. That much is clear: it lasts for the entirety of the attack, up to and including the step where damage is dealt.

What I'm saying is that there are two "variables" that are being determined and checked by the game. Let's call them the attack range, A, and the model range, M. The vast majority of the time, these two values will be the same during an attack. But as you point out, they can be different in some cases, like if a target is range 2 in-arc, but range 1 out-of-arc (A=2, M=1). So the way I interpret the Inquisitor's ability, it's changing A to 1, but not affecting M, which will remain 2 or 3. Further, I'm arguing that the bonus dice, both attack and defense, check the value of A. Strom, Jax, and Autothrusters, on the other hand, all check M to determine whether they're active.

So when the Inquisitor attacks Carnor Jax w/ AT at range 3, his ability kicks in, and A=1, M=3. He gets his extra attack die (A=1), and Jax can't stop him from spending focus tokens (M does not equal 1). When it's time to roll defense, Jax doesn't get the extra evade die (A does not equal 3), but he does get to activate Autothrusters (M=3).

Of course, I could be entirely wrong about this, and the intent of the Inquisitor's ability is to overwrite all measurements between the attacker and defender as Range 1 (A=1, M=1). In that case, I agree that it would interact with Jax and Strom exactly as you described originally.

Arguably we should be making them anyway, but now (for the first time) it actually matters that the range between my ship and yours is Range 1 for some purposes but Range 2 for others.

As others have pointed out, it's not quite the first time. But I agree that it would be much simpler and easier to treat the defender as range 1 for all purposes during the attack. It might be a mistake on my part to get hung up on the "range of the attack" wording (as opposed to, say, "range to the defender"). FFG hasn't had a great track record for precise templating.

Range measurement takes place in Step 1 of the combat phase, but application of range bonuses occurs in Step 2 "Roll Attack Dice' and Step 4 "Roll Defense Dice."

As there are no specific details or FAQ yet to clarify the Inquisitor's Ability, I have to take at face value that the ability "treat the range of the attack as Range 1" applies only to Step 2 of the Combat phase, where Range Combat bonuses are applied for the attacker and does not necessarily take away the defenders upgrades or abilities.

Step 4 of the Combat Phase, "Roll Defense Dice" is where the defender applies any Range bonuses.

1. Declare Target : Actual Range and Firing Arc is determined.

2. Roll Attack Dice: During this step, the attacker calculates how many attack dice to use (including a Range bonus) and then rolls the dice.

"When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3...."

Inquisitor check = Is the Inquisitor at Range 2 or 3? If yes - the ability activates. The Inquisitor gets Range Combat bonus of one extra attack die.

For Zertik Strom: "Enemy ships at Range 1..."

Defender check = Is the enemy ship (Inquisitor) at Range 1? No - the ability does not activate and you can't prevent focus the Inquisitor's Range Combat bonus from being used.

3. Modify Attack Dice: Players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify attack dice.

For Conner Jax: "Enemy ships at Range 1..."

Defender check = Is the enemy ship (Inquisitor) at Range 1? No - the ability does not activate and you can't prevent Inquisitor focus tokens from being used to modify attack dice.

4. Roll Defense Dice: The defender calculates how many defense dice to use and then rolls the dice.

"The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1 additional defense die."

Defender Check = Is my ship at Range 3? If yes - roll 1 additional defense die during Step 4.

5. Modify Defense Dice: Players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify defense dice.

For Autothrusters: "When defending, if you are beyond Range 2.."

Defender Check = Is my ship at Range 3? If Yes - change 1 of your blank results to an evade result.

6. Compare Results: Players compare their dice results to determine whether the defender was hit.

The mistake here is only applying the Inquisitor's ability to one part of the attack instead of the whole attack. FAQ Page 1, "an attack" is all parts of an attack.

Pandademic: you might have a case there but most often it is the PWT with its separate checks that would hit this problem.

I believe you should be able to have effective attack range be different than the ship range. We already see this issue where a ship is at one range but is attacked at a different range. I'll admit that can make things confusing at times.

This.

Range and arc checks are independent of the range of the attack, which is determined differently than simple range (due to firing arcs). Jax can be attacking a ship at Range 2, but that ship is actually at range 1 and therefore can't spend tokens. Determining (or changing) the range of the attack does not change the range the ships are actually at.

The mistake here is only applying the Inquisitor's ability to one part of the attack instead of the whole attack. FAQ Page 1, "an attack" is all parts of an attack.

It's not a matter of timing - the ability does indeed apply to the entire attack. But I don't think it changes what you think it changes. Given that we already have a distinction between the range for the attack and the range between the ships, and that the ability explicitly does NOT say "Treat the target as if it were at range 1", I think we have to (cautiously, of course) assume they're different things.

Range measurement takes place in Step 1 of the combat phase, but application of range bonuses occurs in Step 2 "Roll Attack Dice' and Step 4 "Roll Defense Dice."

As there are no specific details or FAQ yet to clarify the Inquisitor's Ability, I have to take at face value that the ability "treat the range of the attack as Range 1" applies only to Step 2 of the Combat phase, where Range Combat bonuses are applied for the attacker and does not necessarily take away the defenders upgrades or abilities.

Step 4 of the Combat Phase, "Roll Defense Dice" is where the defender applies any Range bonuses.

1. Declare Target : Actual Range and Firing Arc is determined.

2. Roll Attack Dice: During this step, the attacker calculates how many attack dice to use (including a Range bonus) and then rolls the dice.

"When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3...."

Inquisitor check = Is the Inquisitor at Range 2 or 3? If yes - the ability activates. The Inquisitor gets Range Combat bonus of one extra attack die.

For Zertik Strom: "Enemy ships at Range 1..."

Defender check = Is the enemy ship (Inquisitor) at Range 1? No - the ability does not activate and you can't prevent focus the Inquisitor's Range Combat bonus from being used.

3. Modify Attack Dice: Players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify attack dice.

For Conner Jax: "Enemy ships at Range 1..."

Defender check = Is the enemy ship (Inquisitor) at Range 1? No - the ability does not activate and you can't prevent Inquisitor focus tokens from being used to modify attack dice.

4. Roll Defense Dice: The defender calculates how many defense dice to use and then rolls the dice.

"The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional (or fewer) dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1 additional defense die."

Defender Check = Is my ship at Range 3? If yes - roll 1 additional defense die during Step 4.

5. Modify Defense Dice: Players may resolve abilities and spend tokens that allow them to modify defense dice.

For Autothrusters: "When defending, if you are beyond Range 2.."

Defender Check = Is my ship at Range 3? If Yes - change 1 of your blank results to an evade result.

6. Compare Results: Players compare their dice results to determine whether the defender was hit.

The mistake here is only applying the Inquisitor's ability to one part of the attack instead of the whole attack. FAQ Page 1, "an attack" is all parts of an attack.

Pandademic: you might have a case there but most often it is the PWT with its separate checks that would hit this problem.

The ability is worded as follows:

"When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3, treat the range of the attack as Range 1."

The ability as stated applies only to the RANGE of the attack and until I see elaboration or a FAQ explaining otherwise, I am inclined to believe that this simply allows the Inquistitor to roll an additional die as a RANGE Combat bonus.

If it was worded differently, I would be more inclined to believe that it also affected the defender's check for Range Combat Bonus and modification for Autothrusters:

"When attacking with your primary weapon at Range 2-3, treat the target of the attack as if it was at Range 1."

Ultimately, FFG will have to provide an updated FAQ to address this, but I will go for the more literal interpretation until then.

I do think it would affect Autothrusters as well.

IMHO the check for this should be based on the Jax example above. If you have an attack which produces a different range for the attack than it does for "simple" range, which does it depend on? Jax's ability is universal, and ignores the range of the actual attack, so the Inquisitor's ability doesn't matter. Something like Tactician or Autothrusters or secondary weapons care about the range as measured for the attack, so the Inquisitor's ability does (potentially, I realize these are non-possible examples) apply.

I didn't expect this to spark such a discussion and now

Interesting discussion.

I agree that the range of the attack and the range between the attacker and defender can be different. Another thing to remember is from where you measure. For Jax's ability you measure from his base to and all enemy ships within Range 1 are affected. The attack is obviously measured from the Inquisitor to the defender inside the firing arc.

I pictured it like on Vassal. You enable the red range bands of Jax to see which ships are at Range 1 of him. You then enable the Inquisitors range bands in his firing arc and then simply paint the entire arc with the red color of Range 1.

It is potentially useful to keep in mind that both Jax and Strom can affect an attack that targets someone else. This suggests that their respective abilities should be measured independently of the attack.

As the Inquisitor is still "In development" it's allso very possible his wording will be changed before release

That said, I fully agrea with the standpoint that attack range and ship range are to separate entitys the are not allways the same value.