I have 2 builds using Kath, Palob and Torkil. I have had success with both but haven't really played against any of the meta-builds. Which do you think will fair better?

Build 1:

Torkil Mux, Ion Cannon Turret (24)
Palob, Ion Cannon Turret, Recon Specialist (28)
Kath Scarlet, Engine Upgrade, K4 Security Droid, PTL (48)

Total: 100

Build 2:

Torkil Mux, Ion Cannon Turret, Tactician (26)
Palob, Ion Cannon Turret, Tactician (27)
Kath Scarlet, Engine Upgrade, Tactician, PTL (47)

Total: 100

(I'm also not 100% sure on Kath's loadup in Build 2 so any suggestions would be welcome).

Tacticians on HWKs are useless

Yeah, not a fan of Tac on HWK.

Also, when running Torkil, you should try to get predator in there if possible.

Palob is a sad panda without moldy crow too...

How about:

Torkil w/ ion turret

Kath w/ predator + engine

Now add either intel agent on kath or greedo on Torkil. This brings you to 70 pts.

30 pts allows either of the following Palob builds:

Palob w/ predator, moldy crow + blaster

Palob w/ expert handling, K4 droid + ion turret

The first one keeps your damage at decent levels, whereas the second puts the damage dealing squarely on the shooulders of Kath, but has the advantage of being extremely annoying for the opponent (because if they focus/evade, you steal it, if they TL, you roll and ditch it)

Tacticians on HWKs are useless

Why do you say this? I would have thought stress and ion would be very useful. Haven't had a lot of experience with this build though so would. Welcome any you have.

Yeah, not a fan of Tac on HWK.

Also, when running Torkil, you should try to get predator in there if possible.

Palob is a sad panda without moldy crow too...

How about:

Torkil w/ ion turret

Kath w/ predator + engine

Now add either intel agent on kath or greedo on Torkil. This brings you to 70 pts.

30 pts allows either of the following Palob builds:

Palob w/ predator, moldy crow + blaster

Palob w/ expert handling, K4 droid + ion turret

The first one keeps your damage at decent levels, whereas the second puts the damage dealing squarely on the shooulders of Kath, but has the advantage of being extremely annoying for the opponent (because if they focus/evade, you steal it, if they TL, you roll and ditch it)

Because the target has to be in your firing arc. The HWKs dual sucks for this. Also you are usually trying to avoid their arc with the HWK which usually means you're using its turret out of arc

Tacticians on HWKs are useless

Why do you say this? I would have thought stress and ion would be very useful. Haven't had a lot of experience with this build though so would. Welcome any you have.

I kind of wanted just the two almost bare HWKs as my experience in the past has been that they don't get their points back when loaded up. I'm especially not a big fan of the blaster turret as it seems you are spending a lot of points to get what is essentially just an unmodified 3 dice shot. Now that you mention it though, it does seem that my list relies too heavily on Kath and if someone focus fires on her then I can't put out enough damage to win. Maybe I should look at using 2 or 3 cheaper ships in her place (or even a mini swarm).

Its true that ion + stress is a nasty combo. The problem here is, that the HWK by nature, does not fly towards the enemy (it might at the very start, but you are often better served by not going directly at the foe and since you have no k-turn, its very difficult to ever face your foe even if you want to). Since Tactician requires that a) target is in your firing arc and b) at range 2; its extremely difficult for the HWK to actually use Tactician. It might happen once per match, but that's assuming that you are very good at getting the right ranges (and your opponent is not). Generally, its not a good idea to assume your opponent makes bad decisions in order for your list to be effective.

As for blaster turret, its also true that the requirement (spend a focus to fire) means an unmodified shot. However, if you have the moldy crow title, you will be 'banking' focus tokens right from the first turn (this is why moldy crow is so important). So by the time you start firing it, you should have at least 2+ focus tokens stored up (more if you approach your opponent slow and he doesn't rush you). Also, you have predator, and thanks to Torkil, whatever you shoot at has Pilot Skill 0. Meaning that you always get to re-roll 1 or 2 dice. So most of the time, you are scoring 3 hits (which is quite good combined with Palob's ability, because it means your opponent might not even have a focus/evade to protect himself from this damage).

if using a character HWK (not dace), I personally never go without:

Blaster + Recon + Moldy Crow

Moldy Crow in particular is just stupid; definitely one of the least appreciated titles in the game. It takes the sh*tty HWK, essentially a really crap X-wing, and turns it into a better version of Luke motherloving Skywalker. The store of focus gives you access to a completely action-independent store of offensive and defensive dice modifications (provided you built a bit of a stock in the opening turns, which you always should)

I think Palob works best with a blaster turret, Moldy Crow, and Preditor. He is a focus-stealing bandit, and you need the focus to use the blaster. You don't with the ion cannon.

Because the target has to be in your firing arc. The HWKs dual sucks for this. Also you are usually trying to avoid their arc with the HWK which usually means you're using its turret out of arc

Tacticians on HWKs are useless

Why do you say this? I would have thought stress and ion would be very useful. Haven't had a lot of experience with this build though so would. Welcome any you have.

I kind of wanted just the two almost bare HWKs as my experience in the past has been that they don't get their points back when loaded up. I'm especially not a big fan of the blaster turret as it seems you are spending a lot of points to get what is essentially just an unmodified 3 dice shot. Now that you mention it though, it does seem that my list relies too heavily on Kath and if someone focus fires on her then I can't put out enough damage to win. Maybe I should look at using 2 or 3 cheaper ships in her place (or even a mini swarm).

Its true that ion + stress is a nasty combo. The problem here is, that the HWK by nature, does not fly towards the enemy (it might at the very start, but you are often better served by not going directly at the foe and since you have no k-turn, its very difficult to ever face your foe even if you want to). Since Tactician requires that a) target is in your firing arc and b) at range 2; its extremely difficult for the HWK to actually use Tactician. It might happen once per match, but that's assuming that you are very good at getting the right ranges (and your opponent is not). Generally, its not a good idea to assume your opponent makes bad decisions in order for your list to be effective.

As for blaster turret, its also true that the requirement (spend a focus to fire) means an unmodified shot. However, if you have the moldy crow title, you will be 'banking' focus tokens right from the first turn (this is why moldy crow is so important). So by the time you start firing it, you should have at least 2+ focus tokens stored up (more if you approach your opponent slow and he doesn't rush you). Also, you have predator, and thanks to Torkil, whatever you shoot at has Pilot Skill 0. Meaning that you always get to re-roll 1 or 2 dice. So most of the time, you are scoring 3 hits (which is quite good combined with Palob's ability, because it means your opponent might not even have a focus/evade to protect himself from this damage).

Torkil, ion cannon (24)

Palob, blaster, moldy crow, predator (30)

Kath, predator, engine (45)

That leaves 1 point. As blade_mercurial suggested above, I could put Intel agent on Kath or Greedo on Torkil. I'm not a huge fan of Greedo on the HWK as I think it will suffer the negative effects long before the enemy will and also the HWKs do not like crits. They are bad enough as it is that they can't be doing with anything being reduced/taken away. Am happy to be convinced otherwise in this! For now though, I am torn between Intel agent and Inertial Dampeners. Have never used either of these so any thoughts welcome.

Palob doesn't need Predator if he's taking the HWK title. You'll have plenty of opportunity to TL once you a bunch of tokens stored.

Switch Kath back to K4/PTL with the spare points and you should be good to go.

Greedo on Kath is generally not a great idea since she's so susceptible to stress, injured pilot etc. Intel Agent on Torkil is viable since he's low priority. I'd use that spare point to upgrade the Ion Cannon to a Twin Laser Turret once it's released, personally.

Palob w/ expert handling, K4 droid + ion turret

... puts the damage dealing squarely on the shooulders of Kath, but has the advantage of being extremely annoying for the opponent (because if they focus/evade, you steal it, if they TL, you roll and ditch it)

Mind blown...

Sorry to derail for a moment, but I need to go back to the drawing board with this. Now I'm thinking about an EH squad with Bossk and Palob...

Blade, you are awesome.

Back to the thread, I like Greedo on the Scum HWKs that have Ion turret, especially if they are shooting after the bulk of your lists firepower. That crit can be fantastic. Paired with Torkil Mux is also a plus against fewer ships. You can drop their ship to 0 PS and then get all of your focus fire in. However, it is hard to not use Blaster Turret on Palob. His ability synergizes with it so well.

Predator and Torkil is a classic match. However, if Palob has Moldy Crow and can steal focus tokens from the enemy, I do not see a reason for Predator. By the time you want to focus down an enemy you will most likely have an opportunity to Target Lock. It does help against the highest of pilot skills if you are out of range for your TL when you go to move, but once you are engaged it becomes less useful. I would suggest a crew on Kath. If you want to keep Predator on her, Recon Specialist would be a fine addition, or stick with Tactician and use some Inertial Dampeners and Greedo spread out on your list.

Palob doesn't need Predator if he's taking the HWK title. You'll have plenty of opportunity to TL once you a bunch of tokens stored.

Switch Kath back to K4/PTL with the spare points and you should be good to go.

Greedo on Kath is generally not a great idea since she's so susceptible to stress, injured pilot etc. Intel Agent on Torkil is viable since he's low priority. I'd use that spare point to upgrade the Ion Cannon to a Twin Laser Turret once it's released, personally.

But Target Lock requires the action whereas Predator is always there by default. Also, I was looking at Greedo on Torkil and Intel Agent on Kath, not the other way around! Thanks for your thoughts anyway though!

Predator and Torkil is a classic match. However, if Palob has Moldy Crow and can steal focus tokens from the enemy, I do not see a reason for Predator. By the time you want to focus down an enemy you will most likely have an opportunity to Target Lock. It does help against the highest of pilot skills if you are out of range for your TL when you go to move, but once you are engaged it becomes less useful. I would suggest a crew on Kath. If you want to keep Predator on her, Recon Specialist would be a fine addition, or stick with Tactician and use some Inertial Dampeners and Greedo spread out on your list.

I think the idea is that Palob and Torkil will be flying together for the most part so should usually be shooting at the same enemy. I take your point though, I got myself confused between the two abilities. I still think it is a good addition though, I have found in the past that when Palob gets into the thick of it he uses up focus tokens fast as he is usually the priority target. If you spend one to activate blaster, then one to modify and maybe one to defend then you burn through that stack very quickly! I agree that you can build up a lot at the start but once you start burning them you need to replace them quickly so performing a TL is not helpful. Predator takes away the need for this, and also possibly the need for the second focus to modify your dice (although not always obviously).

Still not convinced on Greedo, although I do see how he would be better on a low PS ship such as Torkil, I will give him a try and see what happens.

Palob w/ expert handling, K4 droid + ion turret

... puts the damage dealing squarely on the shooulders of Kath, but has the advantage of being extremely annoying for the opponent (because if they focus/evade, you steal it, if they TL, you roll and ditch it)

Mind blown...

Sorry to derail for a moment, but I need to go back to the drawing board with this. Now I'm thinking about an EH squad with Bossk and Palob...

Blade, you are awesome.

Back to the thread, I like Greedo on the Scum HWKs that have Ion turret, especially if they are shooting after the bulk of your lists firepower. That crit can be fantastic. Paired with Torkil Mux is also a plus against fewer ships. You can drop their ship to 0 PS and then get all of your focus fire in. However, it is hard to not use Blaster Turret on Palob. His ability synergizes with it so well.

Predator and Torkil is a classic match. However, if Palob has Moldy Crow and can steal focus tokens from the enemy, I do not see a reason for Predator. By the time you want to focus down an enemy you will most likely have an opportunity to Target Lock. It does help against the highest of pilot skills if you are out of range for your TL when you go to move, but once you are engaged it becomes less useful. I would suggest a crew on Kath. If you want to keep Predator on her, Recon Specialist would be a fine addition, or stick with Tactician and use some Inertial Dampeners and Greedo spread out on your list.

I can't take credit for that Palob build; Sablegryphon actually told me about it at Gencon

Palob doesn't need Predator if he's taking the HWK title. You'll have plenty of opportunity to TL once you a bunch of tokens stored.

Switch Kath back to K4/PTL with the spare points and you should be good to go.

Greedo on Kath is generally not a great idea since she's so susceptible to stress, injured pilot etc. Intel Agent on Torkil is viable since he's low priority. I'd use that spare point to upgrade the Ion Cannon to a Twin Laser Turret once it's released, personally.

But Target Lock requires the action whereas Predator is always there by default. Also, I was looking at Greedo on Torkil and Intel Agent on Kath, not the other way around! Thanks for your thoughts anyway though!

Yeah, you could get by without Predator on Palob, especially if there was something else you wanted to do with the points.

Greedo on Torkil works because most of the time, your opponents want to kill either Palob or Kath first. Kath is the scariest, so makes sense that your opponent wants to take her off the table ASAP. She's also the hardest to kill though, so some people will pick an easier target. Palob is the most annoying and disruptive (well, Torkil is pretty annoying too, but in my experience people go after Palob first). Also, he does shoot last, so that helps get the crit applied to hull. He is susceptible to crits himself, but ideally, as your opponent loses ships, their ability to put damage on him will diminish...

Torkil w/ Ion turret = 24

Palob w/ blaster & moldy crow = 27

Kath w/ predator & engine = 45

96

4 points left to work with. Could go with tactician on Kath (to go back to the original plan of ion + stress) and then 2 points left for 2 of: inertial dampeners on Kath, Crack Shot on Palob, Greedo on Torkil or even intel agent on Torkil

Could also take engine upgrade on Palob, but that really works better when you have either recon specialist or K4 droid on Palob first. Could just take recon specialist and use the last point for one of the 1 pt options above...

SableGryphon...that guy! I'm continually impressed by what he has been solving lately.

Looking at these three ships, I would try to fly it one of the following ways:

Palob doesn't need Predator if he's taking the HWK title. You'll have plenty of opportunity to TL once you a bunch of tokens stored.

Switch Kath back to K4/PTL with the spare points and you should be good to go.

Greedo on Kath is generally not a great idea since she's so susceptible to stress, injured pilot etc. Intel Agent on Torkil is viable since he's low priority. I'd use that spare point to upgrade the Ion Cannon to a Twin Laser Turret once it's released, personally.

But Target Lock requires the action whereas Predator is always there by default. Also, I was looking at Greedo on Torkil and Intel Agent on Kath, not the other way around! Thanks for your thoughts anyway though!

Yes, but when you have 10 tokens floating on Palob trust me - you're going to be TLing all the time and that Predator will go to waste.

If i have Moldy Crow, I frequently run Sabatour on Palob. If I already have a pile of tokens, and you are stealing more, there isn't much left or actions so you might as well be even more annoying by flipping damage cards.

If i have Moldy Crow, I frequently run Sabatour on Palob. If I already have a pile of tokens, and you are stealing more, there isn't much left or actions so you might as well be even more annoying by flipping damage cards.

I like this idea. Get a more useful action. With this you could go for Predator (because of running Mux) and carry the title for focus. Maximum offense with a useful action.

not sure where you guys are accumulating such a pile

Palob should be spending at least as much as he is gaining (1 for blaster, 1 for offense, 1 for defense) unless your opponent is doing something dumb (like not trying to swiss-cheese palob)

If not, you can TL for fully modified attacks. No reason trying to make lightning strike with saboteur.

As for the effectiveness of Greedo, I should mention I took him to the Dallas Regionals. If you are curious about how he performed, here's a link to the report: http://teamcovenant.com/sablegryphon/2015/07/19/feast-of-crows-2015-dallas-regionals-battle-report/

Now, I'm really partial to Palob + EH + K4 + ICT. It's an extremely durable ship and annoying to deal with. Add in Moldy Crow if you have the points, but it's not necessary like most other HWK builds.

My standard Palob build is Palob + Blaster Turret + Moldy Crow + Predator.

Those are the two I recommend trying. Both are 30 points, but fly very differently. The former is really good at shutting down small ships and dancing away from their Target Locks, but doesn't hit as hard as the latter.

Oppertunist is also good on Palob. He will steal your cookie and the beat you with it. Just nasty.

Opp is fun but comes with the twin problems of

a) Mr most wanted becoming even more valuable (and you worse off if you can't get range 1-2; ******* pwts...)

b) stress on a hwk

Hi all, just to let you know I used the original version of my list (with two ion cannons) at a practice night last night and wrote up how I did with it. If anyone is interested you can find it here:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184999-practice-night-for-a-tournament-this-weekend-kath-and-hwks/

Didn't have time to wrap my head around the other lists you suggested and I don't have all the cards for them anyway (why is predator only in the TIE Defender?!?!). Really appreciate all your help with my list though, this community is fantastic!