My group and I have been playing many sessions of the 3 Co-Ops. We have beaten all 3 with 2 and 3 heroes, but have yet to win a single match with 4 heroes.

First, I am kind of curious ... has anyone beaten any of the co-ops with 4 heroes?

We have also run into some interesting situations, especially with co-op #3 Dark Elements. We aren't sure whether or not these are mistakes, or done on purpose.

For example, the final main room (#3) in Dark Elements is called Limbo's End. Here is a picture of it:

We played this last night with 3 heroes. As normal, you are suppose to spawn monsters based on the number of heroes you are playing with, while respecting group limits. In the picture above, you will notice that to the left of the red X's, there is a minion (white) Elemental specified for 2 or more heroes.

The problem is that we have 3 heroes, and the group limit for 3 heroes for Elementals is 1 Master (red) Elemental.

Our question:

Do Elementals simply not get placed? Are you suppose to violate the group limit and place a white one?

What is the appropriate approach?

This is, by the way, just one example of this that occurs throughout Dark Elements.

1) I have never beaten a coop with 4 heroes. That said, I've only played the coops a handful of times (literally <5.) Just beat Nature's Ire with 3 heroes last night. The last encounter was surprisingly easy- win on second hero turn.

2) I cannot speak specifically for dark elements, I do not own it. However, in most encounters of Nature's Ire and Forgotten Souls, there is an asterisk or other notation on the encounter page that says "in a 3 hero game, do this" to clarify these weirder issues. However, in the final encounter there is a requirement for a minion merriod, with no additional text. During our play last night, we placed the minion merriod, even though it violated group limits. Everything turned out fine. I think it is worth asking FFG about this, as the "unless you are told to ignore group limits, respect them" rule of mainstream Descent may not apply to co-op.

1) I have never beaten a coop with 4 heroes. That said, I've only played the coops a handful of times (literally <5.) Just beat Nature's Ire with 3 heroes last night. The last encounter was surprisingly easy- win on second hero turn.

2) I cannot speak specifically for dark elements, I do not own it. However, in most encounters of Nature's Ire and Forgotten Souls, there is an asterisk or other notation on the encounter page that says "in a 3 hero game, do this" to clarify these weirder issues. However, in the final encounter there is a requirement for a minion merriod, with no additional text. During our play last night, we placed the minion merriod, even though it violated group limits. Everything turned out fine. I think it is worth asking FFG about this, as the "unless you are told to ignore group limits, respect them" rule of mainstream Descent may not apply to co-op.

You are correct that there are some "rooms" that provide an * and tell you what to do. Unfortunately, this lack of consistency is what makes you question the proper thing to do.

We have played dozens and dozens of co-ops and have not won with 4 heroes. This is why I was asking for the feedback.

Your statistical results are certainly more substantial than mine. Also, to clarify my earlier point, we didn't win on the second hero turn. We won on the second round of hero turns from the time we flipped the card. Desmond used the Bard to have an extra MP, and got a villager out of the way almost immediately, ending his activation near a second. On the second round he unlocked the door after Mok did a little healing, and then Silouette the Thief opened the door and attacked Zaldara for one damage. Alys the Berserker used her grinding axe to deal 8 and then 7 damage to Zaldara, even with her automatic +4 shields, and she went down hard.

I have played through Dark Elements with 4 heroes and won without too much difficulty. Key is to have a group of heroes with excellent synergy in their hero abilities, as well as high movement speed for all heroes. It also hugely helps to have a Thief for opening doors as that frees up an entire additional action every single room, which adds up very quickly.

In the case of 3 heroes and monster placement, I agree with Zaltyre in that you should follow the placement instructions of the co-op. I believe this initial placement ignores group limits.

In the case of 3 heroes and monster placement, I agree with Zaltyre in that you should follow the placement instructions of the co-op. I believe this initial placement ignores group limits.

I am going to submit the question to FFG to see what they have to say ...

I've won Forgotten Souls with Four heroes (Though alot had to do with rerolls.) That was probably after the fifth or sixth try. I've yet to beat Nature's Ire ( will be going for my fifth try this week), but I did manage to get to the last exploration card. Twas a bummer t lose off a **** Peril Card, but them's the breaks.

Actually in the above example, it doesn't look like you are breaking group limits (unless there are Elementals on the board.) What the board is saying here is that there is one minion Elemental there regardless. The group limits for 3 heroes is one Master Elemental, but that's actually worse then the group limit of a minion Elemental for two heroes. Since Masters are stronger, for a 3 hero game they'll switch out the Master for the Minion. Make sense?

In anycase, on this board, with your 3 Heroes, you're spawning a Minion Elemental. The only thing you shouldn't be spawning is the extra Minion Hybrid and the Master Imp.

One other note: For Co-Ops, if you are instructed to spawn monsters and there are already monsters on the game board and it goes over group limits, the ones on the game board despawn in place of the ones that are spawning.

The monsters are placed in order of the number of heroes present: If you have 4 heroes present you place the monsters on the board that that are numbered equal to or less than the number of heroes you have. In this case, with 4 heroes, you would place down everything exactly as its shown in the picture. You wouldn't change it to a master elemental, and would just keep it as normal.

The monsters are placed in order of the number of heroes present: If you have 4 heroes present you place the monsters on the board that that are numbered equal to or less than the number of heroes you have. In this case, with 4 heroes, you would place down everything exactly as its shown in the picture. You wouldn't change it to a master elemental, and would just keep it as normal.

But this is precisely what is open for debate, as placing that normal minion elemental would be a violation of the group limits for a 4 hero campaign. I have submitted the question to FFG. I am awaiting a response.

How does it violate 4 hero group limits? The group limit is one minion and one master Elemental.

How does it violate 4 hero group limits? The group limit is one minion and one master Elemental.

Probably he means "3 hero group limits", as that was the initial question.

How does it violate 4 hero group limits? The group limit is one minion and one master Elemental.

Probably he means "3 hero group limits", as that was the initial question.

Yes. Sorry. Too many health issues. Wasn't thinking clearly. Meant 3 hero group limit which is 1 red elemental (and no whites).

I guess technically, it does spawn above group limits since a 3 hero game is 0 minions and 1 master. However, a master monster is stronger then a minion and there are effects that spawn minion monsters. They're giving a 3 hero party something weaker to fight.

Okay, so today I received an official e-mail response from FFG. Their ruling was similar to some of your suggestions, and that is a good thing, as while it disagreed with my stance, it does provide for a great sense of community knowledge and awareness. Always a good thing. Anyway, here is the official response from FFG's Kara Centell-Dunk:

Hi William,

You would (1) place the minion elemental and ignore group limits. Any time a room specifies a certain monster for a number of players, you place that monster as instructed, ignoring group limits.

Thanks for playing,
Kara Centell-Dunk
Game Developer
[email protected]

It is true that this seems to be a new exception to the rule of "respect group limits unless explicitly told not to." However, I suppose you could say the room setup diagram is a pictoral instruction to ignore the limit.

In either case, the intention is now clear.