Hello all,

Just played a game today where my opponent pointed out that the new FAQ may change how CF is applied to anti-squadron fire. He was very convinced that this element from the new FAQ...

A ttack , p .2

Step 6, “Declare Additional Squadron Target,” should include

the following bullet point:

“Treat each repetition of steps 2 through 6 as a new attack for

the purposes of resolving card effects.”

...meant that since the concentrate fire command is not a card effect, then all anti-squadron attacks from a hull zone are one attack, and that the CF dice boost applies to all shots taken from that hull zone.

I couldn't find anything solid to disagree with him, so that's what we played. But I'm not quite sure that's right. What do you all think - does the new FAQ change things? Can I point to something definitive in the Rules Reference for a solid answer?

Huh. . . I am going to have to wait for someone else to respond because the way that "Declare Additional squadron targerts" is worded you just might. . .

This has been discussed at great length befor.

The majority is of the oppinion that CF can only be used agains one squadron.

The comand is "resolved" in step 3 of the attack sequense. You can not resolve the same command more then once during the same turn. The rules tells us to repeat steps 2-6, so including 3. Resolving CF against a second squodron would there for be resolving the same command twise.

There where a few who disagread on that interpretation.

Each attack on a squadron is treated as a separate attack, so things like Warlord and H9 Turbolasers would apply on each attack. Because of this, you could also theoretically strip your VSD of all its shields as you buff a few attacks with Dominator.

However, Concentrate Fire (command or token) still works as normal. It resolves during the Resolve Attack Effects step, specifically, the Modify Dice part, p.2 RRG under ATTACK and p.4 RRG under COMMANDS . For example, he has 10 squadrons on his side arc and he decides to fire on them. Each attack is a separate attack so on each attack, he has a chance to modify his dice, whether by token or dial. However, once he uses a token and/or dial, he has already spent that token/dial for that attack and cannot do it again on other attacks because you can really only have 1 token of each type, you only have 1 command dial, and you can only resolve a command once per turn (can't remember where this last one is from, but it is shown on p.2 of the FAQ under COMMANDS ).

So he can make an attack, choose not to spend his dial and/or token, make the second attack, choose to NOW spend his dial and/or token, make his third attack... and so on. But starting from his third attack, he can no longer modify his dice with a Concentrate Fire dial or token as he has already resolved a CF command.

Hope that helps!

I agree with what's been said, but I have to convince my gaming pals. So, for the sake of laying out the logic...let's proceed a bit more.

This has been discussed at great length befor.

The majority is of the oppinion that CF can only be used agains one squadron.

The comand is "resolved" in step 3 of the attack sequense. You can not resolve the same command more then once during the same turn. The rules tells us to repeat steps 2-6, so including 3. Resolving CF against a second squodron would there for be resolving the same command twise.

There where a few who disagread on that interpretation.

Ok, that's probably the strongest point to make, Rules Reference p.4, "A ship cannot resolve the same command more than once per round." However, the inevitable counterargument will be that we're only resolving the command once....but the resolution of that command involves adding one dice to the attack pool of the attack. And are the shots on the squadrons one attack or many?

Each attack on a squadron is treated as a separate attack, so things like Warlord and H9 Turbolasers would apply on each attack. Because of this, you could also theoretically strip your VSD of all its shields as you buff a few attacks with Dominator.

However, Concentrate Fire (command or token) still works as normal. It resolves during the Resolve Attack Effects step, specifically, the Modify Dice part, p.2 RRG under ATTACK and p.4 RRG under COMMANDS . For example, he has 10 squadrons on his side arc and he decides to fire on them. Each attack is a separate attack so on each attack, he has a chance to modify his dice, whether by token or dial. However, once he uses a token and/or dial, he has already spent that token/dial for that attack and cannot do it again on other attacks because you can really only have 1 token of each type, you only have 1 command dial, and you can only resolve a command once per turn (can't remember where this last one is from, but it is shown on p.2 of the FAQ under COMMANDS ).

So he can make an attack, choose not to spend his dial and/or token, make the second attack, choose to NOW spend his dial and/or token, make his third attack... and so on. But starting from his third attack, he can no longer modify his dice with a Concentrate Fire dial or token as he has already resolved a CF command.

Hope that helps!

So here we're assuming from the start that each shot on the squadron is a separate attack. But the reason my opponents are bringing it up now is because of the new FAQ, which certainly implies that shooting at all squadrons in arc counts as one attack (see my original post for the quote from the FAQ). Add in this point from the Rules Reference p.2, Attack step 6: "Each enemy squadron can be targeted only once per attack." which again implies that you are performing only one attack, during which you target many squadrons.

If we give them the benefit of the doubt on the number of attacks question (which I am open to more debate on), I think it comes down to: do you resolve the CF command during all step 3's of the attack? Or do you only resolve the CF command during the first step 3 of the attack? Is there an official FFG definition of "resolve," and all its implications, somewhere?

He has a point. . . It is why I said I would wait. . . With the FAQ, you are just repeating the process for the same attack. . .

So here we're assuming from the start that each shot on the squadron is a separate attack. But the reason my opponents are bringing it up now is because of the new FAQ, which certainly implies that shooting at all squadrons in arc counts as one attack (see my original post for the quote from the FAQ). Add in this point from the Rules Reference p.2, Attack step 6: "Each enemy squadron can be targeted only once per attack." which again implies that you are performing only one attack, during which you target many squadrons.

If we give them the benefit of the doubt on the number of attacks question (which I am open to more debate on), I think it comes down to: do you resolve the CF command during all step 3's of the attack? Or do you only resolve the CF command during the first step 3 of the attack? Is there an official FFG definition of "resolve," and all its implications, somewhere?

We're not assuming anything.

p.11 RRG, SHIP ACTIVATION , Attack: Perform up to two attacks with the ship from different hull zones.

p.2 RRG, ATTACK , Declare Additional Squadron Target: If the attacker is a ship and the defender was a squadron, the attacker can declare another enemy squadron as a defender and repeat steps 2 through 6. The new defender must be inside the firing arc and at attack range of the same attacking hull zone. Each enemy squadron can be targeted only once per attack.

p.1 FAQ 1.1.1 “The new defender must be inside the firing arc and at attack range of the same attacking hull zone, and the attacker must measure line of sight to it as normal.”

p.1 FAQ 1.1.1 “Treat each repetition of steps 2 through 6 as a new attack for the purposes of resolving card effects.”

p.4 RRG, COMMANDS , Concentrate Fire: Resolve during the “Resolve Attack Effects” step of an attack.

From this, we know a ship can do two attacks per turn, but when firing on squadrons, a ship can fire at all squadrons that are inside the firing arc and attack range of the attacking hull zone, measuring arc, range, and LoS as normal. Each valid squadron target can only be attacked once in this way, but each attack on each squadron (basically, each repetition of steps 2-6) is treated as a new attack for purposes of resolving card effects .

We also know that the Concentrate Fire dial or token is resolved during the "Resolve Attack Effects" which is step 3.

So back to our example: Player A has a ship in arc and range of his front arc and has 10 squadrons in arc and range of his left arc. He decides to fire on the ship for his first attack, then fire on the squadrons for his second attack. When all is said and done, he has done a total of 11 attacks, 1 for the ship and 10 for the squadrons. Although he really has only done 2 attacks, because his 2nd attack is on a squadron group, he basically gets to attack as many times as there are squadrons.

Now, while Lyraeus is correct in that you are just repeating the process for the same attack, you can only resolve a command once per round. Going back to my example, Player A executes 11 attacks and he can choose which of those 11 attacks he uses his CF dial or token but once he does that, that's it. That's the dial or token spent.

I think I see where your opponent is coming from here: "But the 10 squadron attacks are just a sub-set of the 2nd attack a ship can do, so the CF dial/token should apply to all 10 attacks." Not so, and here's why:

1. Declare target: "I attack the squadrons on my left arc, starting with Howlrunner"

2. Roll Attack Dice: roll 1 blue dice

3. Resolve Attack Effects: "Oh, I got a CF dial, I'm using that now," roll 1 more blue dice

4. Spend Defense Tokens: Howlrunner uses Scatter defense token

5. Resolve Damage: No damage remaining to resolve

6. Declare Additional Squadron Target: "Okay, now I target Fel"

--- "new attack for purposes of resolving card effects" ---

2. Roll Attack Dice: roll 1 blue dice

3. Resolve Attack Effects: *no chance to resolve anything even if he has a CF token as you can only resolve a command once per round*

4. Spend Defense Tokens: Fel uses Scatter defense token

5. Resolve Damage: No damage remaining to resolve

6. Declare Additional Squadron Target: "Okay, now I target TIE #1"

and so on....

So the CF dial has already resolved on the first attack and since each squadron attack is treated as a separate attack, card effects such as Warlord, H9 Turbolasers, and Dominator can kick in on each attack but the CF dial or token cannot kick in on subsequent attacks as it would count as resolving the command more than once.

Please tell me if there is any gray area anywhere and I would gladly examine that argument.

Thanks for the detailed answer, Intys! But I think you might have a point backwards....since each attack is a new one for purposes of resolving card effects, Warlord/H9/Dominator only kick in on one attack. Each attack on a squadron, for the cards, is a new attack.

But then since CF does not involve any cards, does that not imply that each squadron attack is NOT a new attack?

Then as you frame it, the question becomes one of what "resolve" means. Does CF resolving mean adding one die to the attack pool in the first step 3? Or to all of them?

p3 RRG, COMMANDS , A ship can resolve the effect of a command by spending a command dial or command token with the matching icon at the appropriate time.

Any way you cut it, you can only "resolve" the command once because the dial/token is "spent" as you resolve it. That means you can "resolve" CF at any time during the 11 attacks, but only once. There is no way you can "resolve" CF to all of them because the next time you get to Step 3 (repeating steps 2-6), well, you've already "resolved" the dial/token so you do not have a dial/token left to resolve and even if you still had a token, you cannot do a command twice in a round.

As for Warlord/H9/Dominator, it can kick in once on one attack. And then it can kick in on the next attack. And on the next. And the one after that.

p5 RRG, EFFECT USE AND TIMING , A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

Warlord: While attacking , you may change 1 die face with an [accuracy] icon to a face with a [hit] icon

H9 Turbolasers: While attacking , you may change 1 die face with a [hit] or [crit] icon to a face with an [accuracy] icon

Dominator: While attacking at close-medium range, you may spend up to 2 shields from any of your hull zones to add the same number of blue dice to your attack pool

I think the new FAQ addition was put in place specifically to clarify these as they are card effects.

Again, please tell me if there is any more gray areas

Ah, brilliant! I hadn't understood the implications for the card effects, clearly. Thanks for that.....I think you've identified the best approach on the "resolve commands" part of the argument. Thanks for the references too. I'll take those points back to my fellas and see how the conversation evolves.

Yea it actually boils down to being able to resolve only 1 command of that type per turn. Doing it for each squadron would require that you resolve it every time you select a new squadron.

Ah, brilliant! I hadn't understood the implications for the card effects, clearly. Thanks for that.....I think you've identified the best approach on the "resolve commands" part of the argument. Thanks for the references too. I'll take those points back to my fellas and see how the conversation evolves.

Much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I would think, but I'd be surprised if they can weasel out of that one

Just as a bookend to the thread, and put to rest any arguments people might try to come up with...

The article accompanying the new FAQ starts with the following text...

This version of the FAQ includes a few card clarifications and a couple of important rules updates. We’ve clarified that when you’re attacking squadrons, each roll against a different squadron counts as a separate attack. This is why you can resolve cards like Point-Defense Reroute and Dominator against each squadron you attack, not just one.