In the case of swarms, I believe epic has a rule that says no more then 8 of any one type of ship?

I believe it is 12 ships of any one type in epic. 12 in epic on a 6x3 mat or 8 on a 3x3 sounds like reasonable limits. (And 10 if you happen to play on a 4x4?)

This summer I am playing only 40 pts 20 minute games ( 2 ships per side, only small ones ) or 3 hour 200-300 pts escenarios. Casual play. If there is plenty of time, 4 players on a 2 vs 2 opens many options, and the 40 pts games allows you to play the game, change sides and play again, learn more, and then open more beer.

Didn't read thread, but I will say that 150 offers a ton of fun alternatives without causing a total clusterbumble of the play space. I just think there should be a 7-ship limit per side if this were a pseudo-official play style. Otherwise games would NEVER play to conclusion and the maneuvering would be a nightmare.

I also really dislike the speed at which ships are being released, and I believe that oversaturation WILL ruin this game. Too many options and ships is not necessarily a good thing, and I really think that a much slower pace of release would be much safer to maintain this game's integrity. Not to mention the fact that it just looks like a greedy money play to constantly crank out more and more ships at higher costs. That said, since there ARE so many ships and upgrades and everything now (or by year's end), I would think it reasonable to allow for more creative flexibility in squad-building by releasing official rules for 150 (or 125 or whatever) point play.

Well most table top games are "living" games which means that the rules and components are always up for change up to the point they are discontinued (i.e. Battle Fleet Gothic, Warhammer Fantasy, Star Trek CCG). Part of the enticement of these games is that they are always changing thus breaking the meta of fixed non expansion games such as Settlers of Catan where power plays can be established and not changed until a new expansion is out.

Now you are right as of now (wave 8) all the source material of the Original Trilogy (Episodes 4-6) have been exhausted and much of the EU that revolves around those movies (i.e. Rebel Assault, Shadows of the Empire) are exhausted as well. So eventually FFG will have to look to other sources for new ships (i.e. prequels, Episode 7).

However that was always the case once X-wing begin. there was only a finite number of small starfighter size ships that were shown in the movies thus the star wars franchise which was the greatest strength of X-wing miniatures was also the biggest constraint. Eventually they would have to expand beyond Episodes 4-6 and FFG has.

Now what does that mean in the future, well more ships you may or may not care for. I honestly thinks FFG keeps the power creep in check so ships from core through wave 5 will still maintain meta viability as well as it has supported older ships with special expansion sets such as Aces and Epic expansions. That is just the nature of such a living table top miniatures game like X-wing has and always been. (at least they are not destroying the world like GW is destroying the old world).

1 - A limit is a limit. A game of 150 points is just as limited as one of 100 points. You will still have to use your points in most efficient way you can, and will still have to make hard decisions about what to include.

2 -Time limits are a non-issue. If 40K tournaments can handle rounds lasting more than two hours each, you guys can handle games at 90 minutes or 120 minutes as well.

1 - A limit is a limit. A game of 150 points is just as limited as one of 100 points. You will still have to use your points in most efficient way you can, and will still have to make hard decisions about what to include.

2 -Time limits are a non-issue. If 40K tournaments can handle rounds lasting more than two hours each, you guys can handle games at 90 minutes or 120 minutes as well.

I'll haft to disagree with your first point for reasons I've already listed above.

Support ships and mutliple target ordinance both increase in value based off the number of ships involved. At the same time elite ships become less and less valuable as you add more ships. At 100 points putting a significant amount of points into one or two ships is greatly encouraged cause of the limited amount of fire power available means you'll be able to get the full use out of all your upgrades. Not to mention being able to mitigate a large amount of damage due to factors like defensive token use or arc dodging. This is simply not the case in larger games. With alot more arcs and fire power available it becomes a lot easier to burn down a specific ship, this in turn highly discourages you from putting too many points into one ship.Elite pilots will still be useful, but you'll need to actually back them up with generics that are also equiped and pose a threat.

Saying that a limit is a limit is just wrong. Different point levels offer different dynamics, this has been true of almost any game I've ever played, digital or table top.

150 points IS different from 100 points because named pilots and titles are limited. The only exception is brobots by design. Will you get a variation of existing coming lists? Sure, but you'd also witness the increasing usefulness of generics and ordnance, and the overall effect of individual aces or titles will decrease.

1 - A limit is a limit. A game of 150 points is just as limited as one of 100 points. You will still have to use your points in most efficient way you can, and will still have to make hard decisions about what to include.

2 -Time limits are a non-issue. If 40K tournaments can handle rounds lasting more than two hours each, you guys can handle games at 90 minutes or 120 minutes as well.

I'll haft to disagree with your first point for reasons I've already listed above.

Support ships and mutliple target ordinance both increase in value based off the number of ships involved. At the same time elite ships become less and less valuable as you add more ships. At 100 points putting a significant amount of points into one or two ships is greatly encouraged cause of the limited amount of fire power available means you'll be able to get the full use out of all your upgrades. Not to mention being able to mitigate a large amount of damage due to factors like defensive token use or arc dodging. This is simply not the case in larger games. With alot more arcs and fire power available it becomes a lot easier to burn down a specific ship, this in turn highly discourages you from putting too many points into one ship.Elite pilots will still be useful, but you'll need to actually back them up with generics that are also equiped and pose a threat.

Saying that a limit is a limit is just wrong. Different point levels offer different dynamics, this has been true of almost any game I've ever played, digital or table top.

Right. I'm not saying 150 is the same as 100 points. It's not. It's a lot better IMO, for the reasons you and others have listed.

But it's still a limit. My comment was intended as a response to people who seem to feel that at 100 points they have meaningful decisions to make during list construction, but at 150 points they could just take everything they wanted. That's not the case. There would still be meaningful decisions to make and players would find that 150 points being eaten up very quickly.

75 minutes per round is probably the limit for me. If it goes higher, I will most likely drop out from competitive play, and since it is something I enjoy a lot, I would likely sell my collection. One of the biggest reasons I play xwing over 40k is the possibility of short, simpler match ups. Take that away and it is over for me (and I would wager a lot more people too). So I really hope it doesn't happen.

Swarm would get a brutal increase, and would eliminate any Fat list - the fatties get 1 or 2 extra ships, but even when they perform perfect you will have 9 - 10 ships in the swarm left when the first salvo goes off, and at least 7 for the second. No way for a deci or YT1300 will survive that, and a YT2400 will be heavily damaged if it gets past that. The swarm will still not be the super no brainer list, it's tricky to maneuver and it is prone to tricked out 6 ship lists (some fancy phantom builds for example).

I just mentioned an increase to 150 points for future games in our gaming group (100 really is too limiting with all the toys available), we will run a few and see what happens.

Swarm would get a brutal increase, and would eliminate any Fat list - the fatties get 1 or 2 extra ships, but even when they perform perfect you will have 9 - 10 ships in the swarm left when the first salvo goes off, and at least 7 for the second. No way for a deci or YT1300 will survive that, and a YT2400 will be heavily damaged if it gets past that. The swarm will still not be the super no brainer list, it's tricky to maneuver and it is prone to tricked out 6 ship lists (some fancy phantom builds for example).

Sounds awesome, where do I sign up?

Swarm would get a brutal increase, and would eliminate any Fat list - the fatties get 1 or 2 extra ships, but even when they perform perfect you will have 9 - 10 ships in the swarm left when the first salvo goes off, and at least 7 for the second. No way for a deci or YT1300 will survive that, and a YT2400 will be heavily damaged if it gets past that. The swarm will still not be the super no brainer list, it's tricky to maneuver and it is prone to tricked out 6 ship lists (some fancy phantom builds for example).

I just mentioned an increase to 150 points for future games in our gaming group (100 really is too limiting with all the toys available), we will run a few and see what happens.

Swarm would get a brutal increase, and would eliminate any Fat list - the fatties get 1 or 2 extra ships, but even when they perform perfect you will have 9 - 10 ships in the swarm left when the first salvo goes off, and at least 7 for the second. No way for a deci or YT1300 will survive that, and a YT2400 will be heavily damaged if it gets past that. The swarm will still not be the super no brainer list, it's tricky to maneuver and it is prone to tricked out 6 ship lists (some fancy phantom builds for example).

Sounds awesome, where do I sign up?

That's why myself and others said to put a cap on ship limit. My vote is 8.

Honestly I'm all about the campaigns/plots, and higher point formats for some missions seems like a good thing.

75 minutes per round is probably the limit for me. If it goes higher, I will most likely drop out from competitive play, and since it is something I enjoy a lot, I would likely sell my collection. One of the biggest reasons I play xwing over 40k is the possibility of short, simpler match ups. Take that away and it is over for me (and I would wager a lot more people too). So I really hope it doesn't happen.

You know it's not an all or nothing deal, right? In 40K there is room for a variety of formats and points levels, why can't x-wing have the same?

See, I am not interested in quick two-ship meta battles that happen in 30 minutes or less. One of the reasons I didn't get into x-wing two years ago was that the core set simply didn't have enough. Two TIEs against an X-wing didn't scratch the itch. I wouldn't have started playing in tournaments with a 60-minute time limit. I'd rather play 4 games at 75 minutes each than 5 at 60 minutes each.

75 minutes per round is probably the limit for me. If it goes higher, I will most likely drop out from competitive play, and since it is something I enjoy a lot, I would likely sell my collection. One of the biggest reasons I play xwing over 40k is the possibility of short, simpler match ups. Take that away and it is over for me (and I would wager a lot more people too). So I really hope it doesn't happen.

You know it's not an all or nothing deal, right? In 40K there is room for a variety of formats and points levels, why can't x-wing have the same?

See, I am not interested in quick two-ship meta battles that happen in 30 minutes or less. One of the reasons I didn't get into x-wing two years ago was that the core set simply didn't have enough. Two TIEs against an X-wing didn't scratch the itch. I wouldn't have started playing in tournaments with a 60-minute time limit. I'd rather play 4 games at 75 minutes each than 5 at 60 minutes each.

To be fair 40K can get really broken really quick.

And? X-wing is a much better game than 40k. FFG is not focused on selling models to the exclusion of all else the way GW is. In fact FFG sometimes seems to make it too hard for its customers to buy the models they want.

I guess my point is that saying "40K can do it:" is a bit wrong when 40k's rules and balance throws more wobblies than windows ME installed on a pogo stick. X-wing is a massively better game than 40k, you're right there but let us suppose that x-wing has a balance point where everything is attempting to achieve absolute balance (100 points) Let us argue that 40k does the same (1500? 2000? I wanna say 2000). at point ranges of 750-1000 40k has issues where some units are more or less unkillable by anything they can otherwise expect to face.

Now, in X-wing it's feasibly possible that ships have points where they become too good at different levels, it's well worth some hard core theorycrafting to see where this is (we have some master theory crafters on this forum *cough*Dracon*cough*)

I do prefer missions and objectives rather than match point sides, but even that has it's issues (SRS - suicide run syndrome makes many missions boring/frustrating/unwinnable), which is why solid campaign structure needs to exist.

TL:DR Xwing has balance as it is, format and the fixed points levels may be part of this. 40K notably has balance issues, it's points range is from 500-6000 or higher. Killteam is my favourite mode for 40K.(200 points).

Actually the fact that X-wing doesn't have to up the limit unlike a more recent game from FFG cough*Armada*cough* is a testament to the structure and balance of X-wing.

Armada is 400 points. It is currently lower because wave 2 is not arrived yet. Just like X-Wing, during wave 1 the limit was 40 points.

And increasing the limit past 100 points open the door for very too much broken combos.

Only the learning missions in the core set were 40 points. Saying that X-wing had a 40 point limit is like saying Armada had only a 180 point limit throughout wave 1.

However I noticed that the 300 point limit for wave 1 Armada matches the 300 point limit for X-wing Epic. Mere coincidence, maybe however I think the designers intended for matches to be at 300 and had to increase it because the gameplay wasn't working as intended. However that is just my theory.

From the beginning the points were Wave 0 is 180, Wave 1 is 300, Wave 2+ is 400. So your theory is wrong.

I would be interested in an increased standard point limit, and agree with those that say it would encourage list diversity. Right now you can just about maximize your defensive potential at 100 points, typically with one tough large ship loaded to the gills and either a second tough large ship or a top-end small ship. It is very hard to concentrate enough firepower against either of these to defeat them. Increasing the point limit will give those squadrons more ships too, but they won't make the existing ships any tougher. The offensive potential of squadrons will increase, but the defensive won't (at least, not as much) driving the metagame away from uber-defensive ships and giving more opportunities to other archetypes. Such ships won't disappear entirely because they still have strong late-game potential, but they will be only a part of a squadron rather than the entirety of it.

Actually the fact that X-wing doesn't have to up the limit unlike a more recent game from FFG cough*Armada*cough* is a testament to the structure and balance of X-wing.

Armada is 400 points. It is currently lower because wave 2 is not arrived yet. Just like X-Wing, during wave 1 the limit was 40 points.

And increasing the limit past 100 points open the door for very too much broken combos.

Only the learning missions in the core set were 40 points. Saying that X-wing had a 40 point limit is like saying Armada had only a 180 point limit throughout wave 1.

However I noticed that the 300 point limit for wave 1 Armada matches the 300 point limit for X-wing Epic. Mere coincidence, maybe however I think the designers intended for matches to be at 300 and had to increase it because the gameplay wasn't working as intended. However that is just my theory.

From the beginning the points were Wave 0 is 180, Wave 1 is 300, Wave 2+ is 400. So your theory is wrong.

X-wing didn't have a 40 point limit in Wave 1. and Wave 0 is not a wave, you are talking about the core set. I'm all for saying that just because a core set is the only thing released the game is not yet released as games such as these are designed to be played with more than the contents found in a core set. True games like these are not fully released until the first wave of expansions are out. However once the first expansions are out then this type of game is released despite the more expansions or errata being added into the core game.

Thus being said Armada and X-wing are "released" as they have their first wave of expansions out. The so called 40 points x-wing restriction and 180 points Armada restrictions are tutorial and demo formats designed to get players familiar to the mechanics of the game before they start buying expansion and playing the standard game as it was intended. And the Wave 2 point cap being raised from 300 to 400 points is not the re-release of Armada (that would require a whole new core set edition) it is simply point creep.

At this point I'd like to comment on just a few things. I agree with the earlier statements that a limit is just that, a limit. And by its nature it would still be a restriction when building as a new meta evolves and what is good is discovered and what strategies work. And yes you would still have to figure out what is the most efficient at that level and not just throw models on the board willy nilly. Because in all realness, if you don't, someone else will, and it's going to show on tournament listings after a while.

To the fears of swarm and bro-bot take over and proposed solutions. I think that would be a definitively solvable issue. Borrowing from Epic the ship type limit would be good to start. Say eight of a small ship type and four of a large. Or ten small and three large by type. Or honestly just not worry about it. The great limiter other than the point limit was always the board size. Some of these lists start to run into problems if you try and bring too many of a type. Bro-bots being a good example. They need to be able to move around and with that much stuff on the board it becomes more skill intensive for the player to attempt to fly three or four of them. Which is a good thing.

On the topic of Armadas alleged point creep. The intended level was always four hundred. I wouldn't be surprised if we are eventually wowed with the release of info that says it's actually five hundred, up to two of that in fighters, and that be the final resting point. The board is too large almost for it not to be, and fleet building as it stands is still kinda cramped even at four hundred. For what would feel like a very natural build of say three Victory's you run out of points in a hurry to do anything else at all. No this was not point creep coming from a company that is planning stuff out six to eight months in advance and at least two expansions out.