....

And a Jar'Kai flourish that works like spitfire.

I would such a talent "Rising Whirlwind."

Also, I would shy away from throwing Quick Draw into any new lightsaber trees. IMO it doesn't fit Jar'kai or Juyo any better than other lightsaber forms, and most of them don't have it. I feel like it'd be too useful in these trees.

For Jar'Kai I have the Jar'Kai technique replace any 20 pt talent. It's basically guns blazing except for brawl, melee, or lightsaber weapons.

Then allow the player to replace quick draw for any 5 point talent if it's not already in the talent tree. Then have them replace a 10 point talent with improved quick draw.

Honestly those are the only 3 talents desperately needed for Jar'Kai and any two weapon melee, brawl, or lightsaber character.

If they ever make something official cool, but that's good enough for now.

And a Jar'Kai flourish that works like spitfire.

Don't need it, until an official one comes out. Until an official one does come out would just recommend player takes Shi'Cho and gets Sarlacc Sweep to describe it. If an official one never comes out then will create a tree that has it.

....

And a Jar'Kai flourish that works like spitfire.

I would such a talent "Rising Whirlwind."

Also, I would shy away from throwing Quick Draw into any new lightsaber trees. IMO it doesn't fit Jar'kai or Juyo any better than other lightsaber forms, and most of them don't have it. I feel like it'd be too useful in these trees.

Totally disagree. However anyone I have talked to wants Ataru or Shi'Cho for their Jar'Kai. In that case they have quick draw already and would just replace an Improved Quick Draw for something else.

And a Jar'Kai flourish that works like spitfire.

Spitfire fits a theme of the gunslinger literally gunning down everyone in sight. Even in the novels, which are now largely Legends material, you had Han quickly firing at several opponents within seconds with a single blaster. It follows a specific theme that is the Gunslinger specialization.

However, dual-wielding sabers doesn't elicit that same theme. TCW is, so far, the best canon source for dual-wielding with Ahsoka and Ventress. Neither of which were better at attacking large groups then a single saber wielder. The only advantage we see from Ahsoka and Ventress is that they had a stronger defense vs multiple opponents (two sabers means twice the coverage for parrying), and that they could rain attacks on single opponents consecutively.

It is interesting to note that Jar'Kai had several glaring weaknesses. The one most relevant to this discussion being it was somewhat weaker vs a single opponent who used two-handed blows to overpower their defenses. Even interlocking both sabers to block didn't completely mitigate the advantage a two-handed grip had due to leverage.

I would such a talent "Rising Whirlwind."

Also, I would shy away from throwing Quick Draw into any new lightsaber trees. IMO it doesn't fit Jar'kai or Juyo any better than other lightsaber forms, and most of them don't have it. I feel like it'd be too useful in these trees.

Rising Whirlwind is an actual Jar'Kai technique that involves spinning about with two lightsabers like a tornado. It was used to deflect blaster shots from all angles, and was primarily a defensive technique. Just an interesting nugget of info.

I understand your concern for Quick Draw. However, I do think it might have a serious place within Juyo. Form VII is the most aggressive saber combat form, and it's wielders are likely to be the first in a group to "go for the saber and ask questions later!" So I think Quick Draw fits Juyo's theme fairly well.

Rising Whirlwind is an actual Jar'Kai technique that involves spinning about with two lightsabers like a tornado. It was used to deflect blaster shots from all angles, and was primarily a defensive technique. Just an interesting nugget of info.

I'd be interested to see the actual source for that, especially since the Wookieepedia article on the topic is in error. The Jar'kai Technique "Rising Whirlwind" was first mentioned, to my knowledge, in the Saga Edition book Jedi Academy Training Manual, published in 2009, 19 months prior to The Price of Victory TCG expansion, which Wookieepedia names as the "first mention."

In SE, Rising Whirlwind was a Force power that was both an attack and a buff, allowing you to attack two different enemies at once, and granting you bonus hitpoints (basically an ablative shield that goes away at the end of the encounter) if you did hit both enemies. So it appeared to me to be primarily an attack, but also one that had some defensive benefits (not the other way around).

I wouldn't consider myself exceptionally well-versed in lightsaber lore, though. Can you shed some light on the subject?

I understand your concern for Quick Draw. However, I do think it might have a serious place within Juyo. Form VII is the most aggressive saber combat form, and it's wielders are likely to be the first in a group to "go for the saber and ask questions later!" So I think Quick Draw fits Juyo's theme fairly well.

Good point. I guess Improved Quick Draw makes a lot of sense for Jar'kai users; I am just afraid of such a talent tree supplanting Ataru as the "fast striker" specialization. Power-creep gives me the heebie jeebies.

And a Jar'Kai flourish that works like spitfire.

Spitfire fits a theme of the gunslinger literally gunning down everyone in sight. Even in the novels, which are now largely Legends material, you had Han quickly firing at several opponents within seconds with a single blaster. It follows a specific theme that is the Gunslinger specialization.

However, dual-wielding sabers doesn't elicit that same theme. TCW is, so far, the best canon source for dual-wielding with Ahsoka and Ventress. Neither of which were better at attacking large groups then a single saber wielder. The only advantage we see from Ahsoka and Ventress is that they had a stronger defense vs multiple opponents (two sabers means twice the coverage for parrying), and that they could rain attacks on single opponents consecutively.

It is interesting to note that Jar'Kai had several glaring weaknesses. The one most relevant to this discussion being it was somewhat weaker vs a single opponent who used two-handed blows to overpower their defenses. Even interlocking both sabers to block didn't completely mitigate the advantage a two-handed grip had due to leverage.

I would such a talent "Rising Whirlwind."

Also, I would shy away from throwing Quick Draw into any new lightsaber trees. IMO it doesn't fit Jar'kai or Juyo any better than other lightsaber forms, and most of them don't have it. I feel like it'd be too useful in these trees.

Rising Whirlwind is an actual Jar'Kai technique that involves spinning about with two lightsabers like a tornado. It was used to deflect blaster shots from all angles, and was primarily a defensive technique. Just an interesting nugget of info.

I understand your concern for Quick Draw. However, I do think it might have a serious place within Juyo. Form VII is the most aggressive saber combat form, and it's wielders are likely to be the first in a group to "go for the saber and ask questions later!" So I think Quick Draw fits Juyo's theme fairly well.

uhhh if you are trying to stop a 2 handed strike with 1 sword you deserve to get hit. That is not what you do and does not work. What does work and requires very little strength at all is redirecting their strike and not being where the strike lands. requires almost no strength. That is a common mistake I see from non swordsman.

As to the Ahsoka and Ventress not hitting multiple opponants...I don't recall them ever being shown in a situation where that would come up. which to me does not mean it does not exist.

I'd be interested to see the actual source for that, especially since the Wookieepedia article on the topic is in error. The Jar'kai Technique "Rising Whirlwind" was first mentioned, to my knowledge, in the Saga Edition book Jedi Academy Training Manual, published in 2009, 19 months prior to The Price of Victory TCG expansion, which Wookieepedia names as the "first mention."

In SE, Rising Whirlwind was a Force power that was both an attack and a buff, allowing you to attack two different enemies at once, and granting you bonus hitpoints (basically an ablative shield that goes away at the end of the encounter) if you did hit both enemies. So it appeared to me to be primarily an attack, but also one that had some defensive benefits (not the other way around).

I wouldn't consider myself exceptionally well-versed in lightsaber lore, though. Can you shed some light on the subject?

Good point. I guess Improved Quick Draw makes a lot of sense for Jar'kai users; I am just afraid of such a talent tree supplanting Ataru as the "fast striker" specialization. Power-creep gives me the heebie jeebies.

Gonna be completely honest, I went with wookieepedia on that one. To be fair, Saga Edition isn't canon material either. Nor is FFGs Star Wars material for that matter. These are mostly semantics though, as I seriously doubt "Rising Whirlwind" has ever been mentioned in a canon setting.

I tend to draw most of my knowledge on martial arts from my kenjutsu experiences. Their are several prominent styles that utilize two swords. The vast majority dual-wielding schools use the off-hand in a defensive fashion as a matter of practice. This combination is considered optimal having developed over hundreds of years of actual combat. Now while the off-hand is typically used defensively, that doesn't mean it can't be used to attack. It's still a sword and will kill you just as easily as the main-hand sword.

Rambling now, my point is a lot of people seem to think two-weapon combat is all about improved attack/damage capability. It's not. Sure their may be some styles that favor that, but most swordsmanship schools tend to use the second weapon to bolster defense more often then offense.

As for the Quick Draw issue, I get where you're coming from. Ataru should be a quick striker, but it should also be the most mobile of the forms. Hawk Bat Swoop does a great job closing with the enemy. I just wish Ataru had a talent for keeping moving while fighting!? If any form had a whirlwind attack, it should be Ataru with all it's spinning, jumping, and flipping!

uhhh if you are trying to stop a 2 handed strike with 1 sword you deserve to get hit. That is not what you do and does not work. What does work and requires very little strength at all is redirecting their strike and not being where the strike lands. requires almost no strength. That is a common mistake I see from non swordsman.

As to the Ahsoka and Ventress not hitting multiple opponants...I don't recall them ever being shown in a situation where that would come up. which to me does not mean it does not exist.

That doesn't change the fact that it happens. It happened to both Ventress and Ahsoka on several occasions. Ventress was nearly killed in a duel with Anakin because of his use of Shien Djem So's powerful attacks.

As for Ahsoka's ability vs multiple opponents, she was surrounded by battle droids a number of times. She never faired better then anyone else against those groups. Ahsoka and Anakin commonly challenged each other by keeping track of their droid kills as points. Anakin usually won despite being slower and wielding only a single saber (Ahsoka did occasionally win causing her to gloat). Though Master Plo Koon beat them both, which they were surprised he'd kept track. Point being that despite facing numerous battle droids on multiple occasions, there is zero evidence to support Jar'Kai being especially good at attacking multiple opponents.

I'd be interested to see the actual source for that, especially since the Wookieepedia article on the topic is in error. The Jar'kai Technique "Rising Whirlwind" was first mentioned, to my knowledge, in the Saga Edition book Jedi Academy Training Manual, published in 2009, 19 months prior to The Price of Victory TCG expansion, which Wookieepedia names as the "first mention."

In SE, Rising Whirlwind was a Force power that was both an attack and a buff, allowing you to attack two different enemies at once, and granting you bonus hitpoints (basically an ablative shield that goes away at the end of the encounter) if you did hit both enemies. So it appeared to me to be primarily an attack, but also one that had some defensive benefits (not the other way around).

I wouldn't consider myself exceptionally well-versed in lightsaber lore, though. Can you shed some light on the subject?

Good point. I guess Improved Quick Draw makes a lot of sense for Jar'kai users; I am just afraid of such a talent tree supplanting Ataru as the "fast striker" specialization. Power-creep gives me the heebie jeebies.

Gonna be completely honest, I went with wookieepedia on that one. To be fair, Saga Edition isn't canon material either. Nor is FFGs Star Wars material for that matter. These are mostly semantics though, as I seriously doubt "Rising Whirlwind" has ever been mentioned in a canon setting.

I tend to draw most of my knowledge on martial arts from my kenjutsu experiences. Their are several prominent styles that utilize two swords. The vast majority dual-wielding schools use the off-hand in a defensive fashion as a matter of practice. This combination is considered optimal having developed over hundreds of years of actual combat. Now while the off-hand is typically used defensively, that doesn't mean it can't be used to attack. It's still a sword and will kill you just as easily as the main-hand sword.

Rambling now, my point is a lot of people seem to think two-weapon combat is all about improved attack/damage capability. It's not. Sure their may be some styles that favor that, but most swordsmanship schools tend to use the second weapon to bolster defense more often then offense.

As for the Quick Draw issue, I get where you're coming from. Ataru should be a quick striker, but it should also be the most mobile of the forms. Hawk Bat Swoop does a great job closing with the enemy. I just wish Ataru had a talent for keeping moving while fighting!? If any form had a whirlwind attack, it should be Ataru with all it's spinning, jumping, and flipping!

uhhh if you are trying to stop a 2 handed strike with 1 sword you deserve to get hit. That is not what you do and does not work. What does work and requires very little strength at all is redirecting their strike and not being where the strike lands. requires almost no strength. That is a common mistake I see from non swordsman.

As to the Ahsoka and Ventress not hitting multiple opponants...I don't recall them ever being shown in a situation where that would come up. which to me does not mean it does not exist.

That doesn't change the fact that it happens. It happened to both Ventress and Ahsoka on several occasions. Ventress was nearly killed in a duel with Anakin because of his use of Shien Djem So's powerful attacks.

As for Ahsoka's ability vs multiple opponents, she was surrounded by battle droids a number of times. She never faired better then anyone else against those groups. Ahsoka and Anakin commonly challenged each other by keeping track of their droid kills as points. Anakin usually won despite being slower and wielding only a single saber (Ahsoka did occasionally win causing her to gloat). Though Master Plo Koon beat them both, which they were surprised he'd kept track. Point being that despite facing numerous battle droids on multiple occasions, there is zero evidence to support Jar'Kai being especially good at attacking multiple opponents.

Why do you equate being able to likely maybe hit one additional target as "Particularly good" At best I would call it slightly better. And considering there is a sarlac sweep already in the game allowing a spitfire like ability is not exactly making Jar'Kai super awesome against multiple opponents.

Why do you equate being able to likely maybe hit one additional target as "Particularly good" At best I would call it slightly better. And considering there is a sarlac sweep already in the game allowing a spitfire like ability is not exactly making Jar'Kai super awesome against multiple opponents.

Are you planning to limit your "lightsaber Spitfire" to only 2 targets? If you're goal is to simply hit 2 opponents, you could simply house-rule that the two attacks from the standard two weapon fighting rules can be split between opponents! There's actually nothing in the book that says you can't split the attacks. It just says you have to use the higher difficulty for the target. So there's no need for your ability. If you're trying to allow a Jar'Kai user to hit 3,4, or 5+ targets, then I have an issue.

FFG did a great job of designing the other forms so they didn't tread on each others specialty. So lets analyze this. So Jar'Kai can increase the difficulty by 1 and roll to hit, and spend 2 Advantage to hit the same target again, and then allocate hits to everyone in range. Yet Sarlacc Sweep has the same difficulty +1 roll, same 2 Advantage requirement, and gets to hit everyone in range. See anything there. The Jar'Kai user gets 2 hits on his target and then gets his AoE. Where Sarlacc Sweep gets 1 hit on his target and his AoE. So you've literally made Shii-Cho's single unique talent obsolete! So I'll ask, does anyone think it's a good precedent to make obsolete the one unique talent in any of the forms?

Are you planning to limit your "lightsaber Spitfire" to only 2 targets? If you're goal is to simply hit 2 opponents, you could simply house-rule that the two attacks from the standard two weapon fighting rules can be split between opponents! There's actually nothing in the book that says you can't split the attacks. It just says you have to use the higher difficulty for the target. So there's no need for your ability. If you're trying to allow a Jar'Kai user to hit 3,4, or 5+ targets, then I have an issue.

By doing this, that makes the other talent that allows you to do this with Ranged (Light) weapons (Spitfire) either useless, or skews the game in favor of dual-wielding melee weapons. Basically, the Gunslinger has to invest into a tree for the ability the Jar'Kai guy can do for free. Normal two weapon fighting has to be restricted to a single target, if only because Spitfire exists .

FFG did a great job of designing the other forms so they didn't tread on each others specialty. So lets analyze this. So Jar'Kai can increase the difficulty by 1 and roll to hit, and spend 2 Advantage to hit the same target again, and then allocate hits to everyone in range. Yet Sarlacc Sweep has the same difficulty +1 roll, same 2 Advantage requirement, and gets to hit everyone in range. See anything there. The Jar'Kai user gets 2 hits on his target and then gets his AoE. Where Sarlacc Sweep gets 1 hit on his target and his AoE. So you've literally made Shii-Cho's single unique talent obsolete! So I'll ask, does anyone think it's a good precedent to make obsolete the one unique talent in any of the forms?

The difference: the Jar'Kai talent would only hit a number of targets equal to the number of weapons the user has (so, like 2), Sarlacc Sweep has the potential to hit more targets, especially on a really good roll.

By doing this, that makes the other talent that allows you to do this with Ranged (Light) weapons (Spitfire) either useless, or skews the game in favor of dual-wielding melee weapons. Basically, the Gunslinger has to invest into a tree for the ability the Jar'Kai guy can do for free. Normal two weapon fighting has to be restricted to a single target, if only because Spitfire exists .

The difference: the Jar'Kai talent would only hit a number of targets equal to the number of weapons the user has (so, like 2), Sarlacc Sweep has the potential to hit more targets, especially on a really good roll.

1) First, incorrect assumption. If you allowed people to split targets when dual-wielding, it would apply to all dual-wielding (ie. ranged weapons as well). Second, I think we're disagreeing on the mechanics behind Spitfire. It reads each additional attack can be allocated to another target in range. So it's implying multiple attacks can be generated, and is not limited to just 2.

2) Once again I'll ask, is your intent for a Jar'Kai "Spitfire-like" ability limited to 2 targets (ie the primary target, plus one)?

The phrasing of two-weapon fighting reads pretty clear that: one, the attacker selects a single target, and two, it caps at as many hits as weapons are used, which is usually going to be two. Also, the Spitfire talent reads that it can hit any other target within range, not every target.

The phrasing of two-weapon fighting reads pretty clear that: one, the attacker selects a single target, and two, it caps at as many hits as weapons are used, which is usually going to be two. Also, the Spitfire talent reads that it can hit any other target within range, not every target.

Actually it says "Finally, he determines the target." At no point does it say single target anywhere. Also you do realize I said as a house-rule right? You're trying to apply strict reading of rules to a house-rule whose very nature differs from RAW!

Also the rules under two-weapon combat clearly state two weapons, not multiple weapons. It continuously refers to a primary weapon and a secondary weapon. Even if you had 8 hands and pistols in each, the RAW does not support it currently. That means one of two things. Either Spitfire was worded very poorly (definitely possible) or there is a way to achieve more then 2 attacks with two-weapons (perhaps cut due to word count, anyone familiar with RPGs can attest to this happening). There is no mention of a cap under two-weapon combat though other then "primary weapon and secondary weapon".

By doing this, that makes the other talent that allows you to do this with Ranged (Light) weapons (Spitfire) either useless, or skews the game in favor of dual-wielding melee weapons. Basically, the Gunslinger has to invest into a tree for the ability the Jar'Kai guy can do for free. Normal two weapon fighting has to be restricted to a single target, if only because Spitfire exists .

The difference: the Jar'Kai talent would only hit a number of targets equal to the number of weapons the user has (so, like 2), Sarlacc Sweep has the potential to hit more targets, especially on a really good roll.

1) First, incorrect assumption. If you allowed people to split targets when dual-wielding, it would apply to all dual-wielding (ie. ranged weapons as well). Second, I think we're disagreeing on the mechanics behind Spitfire. It reads each additional attack can be allocated to another target in range. So it's implying multiple attacks can be generated, and is not limited to just 2.

2) Once again I'll ask, is your intent for a Jar'Kai "Spitfire-like" ability limited to 2 targets (ie the primary target, plus one)?

Per rules as written dual wielding targets only one target. And in reality that actually works the way things work in real life. but those who are very very skilled at it can do cool stuff.

I intend for it to work like spitfire...which usually will allow one extra hit. Might be able to get more. probably not most of the time.

The phrasing of two-weapon fighting reads pretty clear that: one, the attacker selects a single target, and two, it caps at as many hits as weapons are used, which is usually going to be two. Also, the Spitfire talent reads that it can hit any other target within range, not every target.

Actually it says "Finally, he determines the target." At no point does it say single target anywhere. Also you do realize I said as a house-rule right? You're trying to apply strict reading of rules to a house-rule whose very nature differs from RAW!

Also the rules under two-weapon combat clearly state two weapons, not multiple weapons. It continuously refers to a primary weapon and a secondary weapon. Even if you had 8 hands and pistols in each, the RAW does not support it currently. That means one of two things. Either Spitfire was worded very poorly (definitely possible) or there is a way to achieve more then 2 attacks with two-weapons (perhaps cut due to word count, anyone familiar with RPGs can attest to this happening). There is no mention of a cap under two-weapon combat though other then "primary weapon and secondary weapon".

from reading it says you can use 2 advantage to get an additional hit. No where does it say you have to stop at 1 additional hit.

The phrasing of two-weapon fighting reads pretty clear that: one, the attacker selects a single target, and two, it caps at as many hits as weapons are used, which is usually going to be two. Also, the Spitfire talent reads that it can hit any other target within range, not every target.

Actually it says "Finally, he determines the target." At no point does it say single target anywhere. Also you do realize I said as a house-rule right? You're trying to apply strict reading of rules to a house-rule whose very nature differs from RAW!

Also the rules under two-weapon combat clearly state two weapons, not multiple weapons. It continuously refers to a primary weapon and a secondary weapon. Even if you had 8 hands and pistols in each, the RAW does not support it currently. That means one of two things. Either Spitfire was worded very poorly (definitely possible) or there is a way to achieve more then 2 attacks with two-weapons (perhaps cut due to word count, anyone familiar with RPGs can attest to this happening). There is no mention of a cap under two-weapon combat though other then "primary weapon and secondary weapon".

"The target" is singular.

And why would a house rule be necessary? RAW two weapon fighting works fine, with very clear cut applications, and all of the new avenues that the talents work fine with it. Asking for those same avenues to be opened up for the other character type isn't that gruesome of a thing.

from reading it says you can use 2 advantage to get an additional hit. No where does it say you have to stop at 1 additional hit.

Well, no, not really. The books often use terminology in a specific way: if an effect can be triggered multiple times (like with Auto-fire and Burn), it will say so. In this case, it says you can trigger an additional hit for 2 Advantage/1 Triumph, then you can spend other Advantage and Triumphs on other effects, like weapon qualities.

The phrasing of two-weapon fighting reads pretty clear that: one, the attacker selects a single target, and two, it caps at as many hits as weapons are used, which is usually going to be two. Also, the Spitfire talent reads that it can hit any other target within range, not every target.

Actually it says "Finally, he determines the target." At no point does it say single target anywhere. Also you do realize I said as a house-rule right? You're trying to apply strict reading of rules to a house-rule whose very nature differs from RAW!

Also the rules under two-weapon combat clearly state two weapons, not multiple weapons. It continuously refers to a primary weapon and a secondary weapon. Even if you had 8 hands and pistols in each, the RAW does not support it currently. That means one of two things. Either Spitfire was worded very poorly (definitely possible) or there is a way to achieve more then 2 attacks with two-weapons (perhaps cut due to word count, anyone familiar with RPGs can attest to this happening). There is no mention of a cap under two-weapon combat though other then "primary weapon and secondary weapon".

You're forgetting autofire, which exists for some Ranged (Light) weapons. This is where potential extra hits can come from while dual-wielding.

"The target" is singular.

And why would a house rule be necessary? RAW two weapon fighting works fine, with very clear cut applications, and all of the new avenues that the talents work fine with it. Asking for those same avenues to be opened up for the other character type isn't that gruesome of a thing.

So your using a very strict interpretation of the reading in this case. So you then agree that two-weapon fighting is just that, two weapons only. You had said additional attacks, as worded under Spitfire, might come from additional weapons. Based on your interpretation of "the target" being singular. The statement "he hits with his primary weapon, and may also spend 2 Advantage/1 Triumph to hit with a secondary weapon as well" can only be interpreted as two weapons only? I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm just curious if you actually believe the two-weapon system as written applies to 3 or more weapons.

You're forgetting autofire, which exists for some Ranged (Light) weapons. This is where potential extra hits can come from while dual-wielding.

I'll be honest, I hadn't considered auto-fire.

It does raise the question how abilities like, Ataru's Saber Swarm, would interact with a melee version "if it was ever presented"? Especially considering Hawk Bat Swoop's ability to generate Advantages.

"The target" is singular.

And why would a house rule be necessary? RAW two weapon fighting works fine, with very clear cut applications, and all of the new avenues that the talents work fine with it. Asking for those same avenues to be opened up for the other character type isn't that gruesome of a thing.

So your using a very strict interpretation of the reading in this case. So you then agree that two-weapon fighting is just that, two weapons only. You had said additional attacks, as worded under Spitfire, might come from additional weapons. Based on your interpretation of "the target" being singular. The statement "he hits with his primary weapon, and may also spend 2 Advantage/1 Triumph to hit with a secondary weapon as well" can only be interpreted as two weapons only? I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm just curious if you actually believe the two-weapon system as written applies to 3 or more weapons.

I would advise against going down this route of argument, a) because it's not really pertinent to the thread topic and b)there is a hot debate (read "mud-slinging contest") going on right now regarding the effect of Spit Fire.

Suffice to say that using 3+ weapons in a single combat check is entirely in the realm of GM fiat, but the game designers have given us some decent rules structures to use for homebrewing our own solutions, should we desire to delve into that sort of thing. I think the two-weapon rules are best left unchanged (single target only, and two weapons only, unless an effect states otherwise), but I wouldn't judge anyone for wanting to expand things for using 3 or 4 Ranged (Light) weapons in the case of a 4-limbed creature (like a Xexto or Besalisk). It's still not as broken as autofire But some of those pistols are sick, so I wouldn't wanna just give a player carte blanche only to have to reel them in later.

You're forgetting autofire, which exists for some Ranged (Light) weapons. This is where potential extra hits can come from while dual-wielding.

I'll be honest, I hadn't considered auto-fire.

It does raise the question how abilities like, Ataru's Saber Swarm, would interact with a melee version "if it was ever presented"? Especially considering Hawk Bat Swoop's ability to generate Advantages.

It does indeed. Melee is nice in that it necessitates an engaged target, so there is a power-curb right there. BUT...say you did some fancy Jar'kai work, and now you can target enemies within short range... :-o

Just kidding.

Or am I?

I would advise against going down this route of argument, a) because it's not really pertinent to the thread topic and b)there is a hot debate (read "mud-slinging contest") going on right now regarding the effect of Spit Fire.

Suffice to say that using 3+ weapons in a single combat check is entirely in the realm of GM fiat, but the game designers have given us some decent rules structures to use for homebrewing our own solutions, should we desire to delve into that sort of thing. I think the two-weapon rules are best left unchanged (single target only, and two weapons only, unless an effect states otherwise), but I wouldn't judge anyone for wanting to expand things for using 3 or 4 Ranged (Light) weapons in the case of a 4-limbed creature (like a Xexto or Besalisk). It's still not as broken as autofire But some of those pistols are sick, so I wouldn't wanna just give a player carte blanche only to have to reel them in later.

It does indeed. Melee is nice in that it necessitates an engaged target, so there is a power-curb right there. BUT...say you did some fancy Jar'kai work, and now you can target enemies within short range... :-o

Just kidding.

Or am I?

I hadn't really been paying attention to the Spitfire thread. I don't know why people feel the need to "mud-sling" here. Forums are places to exchange information and ideas. I've always enjoyed debates that can ensue. Perhaps you can sway me, perhaps I'll sway you, perhaps we'll agree to disagree. Either way, we both get insights into other people's line of thought. The debate we have here is a great example. Due to comments made by others, I've changed my view points on two-weapon fighting and Spitfire. Yet I still believe a Jar'Kai Spitfire ability falls outside of it's theme.

Technically it would be "some fancy Ataru Jar'Kai" In this instance. Since Jar'Kai isn't actually a form on its own. It's always been either a sub-set of skills to add to a form, or in many instances Jar'Kai is just a word for dual-wielding lightsabers. Ventress is a Makashi Jar'Kai user, while Ahsoka is a Shien Jar'Kai user.

For Juyo talents would likely be this

Assured Strike for every rank in Assured Strike you can reduce the damage of your attack by 2 to gain 1 automatic success on the attack roll.

Vornskyr's Ferocity (Conflict Talent)

When making a Cunning light saber attack you can add your force rating to the attack roll for every 2 dark side pips you roll you may make an additional attack against an opponent engaged with you. If you roll all light side pips you may spend 3 light side pips to gain an additional attack.

Unpredictable Assault

After making a sucessful attack you may spend 3 strain to negate 2 damage reduction plus 1 per rank in Unpredictable assault.

For Vaapad you would have

Swift Flank

On an opponents failed attack roll for every 2 threat or 1 despair you may immediately take an incidental maneuver to move in to engage the opponent at a maximum range of medium.

Tempered Agression

In combat when gaining conflict from flipping force pips as an incidental you may spend 2 strain and make a discipline check to reduce the conflict gained by 1 point per rank in Tempered Agression.