So as my group are going to be getting a Mars class for our flag ship next game I was wondering as we haven't used Nova cannons before are they really worthwhile or are they just costly and inaccurate weapons

I think they are personally, most people might say otherwise going off of straight number crunching in a vacuum. Honestly one-shoting an enemy frigate from 80 VUs away is always fun, and at only a -30 BS test to it, any voidmaster worth his money should be able to make that shot ( especially when lock on target, aid machine spirit, rouge trader yelling, ship and component bonuses etc. get thrown in.)

They are expensive, can only shoot every 2 turns, and must be at least 6 VUs away to fire as well as limiting maneuverability, so if your ship is planning one closing to close range, it going to have to rely on its other weapons.

On a mars class it should do well, you just need to either use the other 3 weapon slots for close range weapons to make up the short comings, or all long range weapons and keep enemies away from the ship, course being a flagship, this is what you escorts are for.

It depends. Isn't that always the answer? FFG didn't give us definitive augur distances. If you can locate ships 80 VUs away then a Nova Cannon rocks. If you can't detect them until they are 20 VUs away, that severely limits their utility.

Hiding in some ignorance, I'd say if you have little extra assets, and the enemy in question has more gratuitous assets, AND your gunner + bonuses can make the hit, then it is a good weapon. I might also argue that a weapon you may never choose to fire is a bit of a waste, and you can come up with all sorts of reasons NOT to fire, with "the enemy in question doesn't warrant such a shot" being high up, if not on top. If they are near anything you care about, well I seem to remember them being the ship's AoE weapon, of a sort, so you might roast the world, the ally ship, or whatever, you didn't want to, if your enemy doesn't move away. If there's only one enemy ship, too, then you might be overdoing it, even if it is ridiculously funny.

For me, I am more a fan of torpedoes, personally, if I'm looking for something to plug into that prow slot. They are more numerous, slightly easier to acquire, once you've gotten to where acquiring ANY military hardware isn't the challenge, anymore, anyway, and they can really pack a punch. Make sure they DO want a dedicated warship, however, as that's what Nova Cannons reside upon; you don't hide them, and you are a cruiser, or bigger, so a warship conscripted to smuggling, you might be, but still a warship. My opinion, little-backed by rules/crunch, but there you are.

Holy cow, how many SP have you got? Or is your DM just handing you a kitted-out Mars-class?

we have 77 ship points at the moment assuming that one of the other players doesn't pick up start that hands out ship points so a Mars with lots of rubbish equipment with a PF of 20 something we will have great fun getting new components and keeping us in fighters and bombers let alone the Nova cannon all round while have access to such a ship it will really take lots of work before we can enjoy it

Yeah, keeping in fighters and bombers with a PF of 20 is impossible. If you're just trying to break your game before it starts, though, there's some good threads around here about aircraft carriers.

we have 77 ship points at the moment

Colour me curious... how exactly? Even bearding the Warrant Path chart only nets you a maximum of 70.

the GM was foolish allowing one free shift that gets 74 then then we had an elaborate chart of vessels we rolled against that produced the Mars a perfect poison chalice but we going for the reversal of entropy and fighting the long night for a time style so it should work well for that

Good luck

If you know the GM is doing something foolish, why not tell him/her? I've never understood wanting to knowingly enter a game that was broken at the outset, though I've witnessed it plenty of times. That said, 77 isn't too outlandish. You can get 70 from the Warrant Path. The catch is in the PF. You only have 22 going that route, and you can't keep a carrier or a nova cannon going with 22 PF. You'll finding yourself burning PF to make the roll necessary for replenishment, and that's a downward spiral. Going with a carrier and a nova cannon will only encourage a faster spiral. I will say, though, that a GM that allows what you've already told us is probably also going to allow for "fudging" when it comes to those acquisition rolls. That will be some fun, eh? There will be a story, but there won't be any challenges because the deus ex will always make it so the players come out on top. I'd be looking for another game.

I Fear you miss the point the use of assets isn't guaranteed and combat is not the best option to begin with anyway so I hope we can slow build up to being able to use the assets also we normally have things like reputation and peers have a helping had with getting equipment , the idea is the fight against entropy and decay we don't have to end up like Gormenghast , the games not broken unless you try and use things without cause I would say

The use of assets is always guaranteed, especially when said assets are combat-oriented assets in a RPG that features epic combat. Who are you kidding? "My paladin has a +7 vorpal dancing sword of soul-sucking, but I won't ever use it because it might stain my soul." Right.

Reputation and Peer Talents add to social challenges, and as such can add to the Commerce check that modifies party PF when making an Acquisition. In essence, when making a successful check, Peer Talent is going to add +2 PF. While that's not inconsequential it won't be the deciding factor in being able to afford nova cannon rounds. The same Talents are also a prerequisite to some Acquisitions. such as Peer (Imperial Navy) when requesting repairs at an Imperial Navy base.

The game is broke is when the challenge is a mirage, a fake. The game is broke when the players adjudicate what the GM will be doing. You called your GM foolish for giving your party too much. By your own admission the game is broke out of the starting gate. I was merely suggesting you talk to your GM to see if your whole group can bring the game back into line. Broken games tend to fall apart quickly. Nobody wants that.

Knowing what my group are dealing with I know the issue isn't broken as you say and that the RP side is normally more important then the epic combat to us if we have to be little better then chartists for a time so be it we can enjoy the fruits of our labour and the ship all the more later in combat

Yeah, it's not up to anyone here to tell you how to play, greystroke. If you guys enjoy the game that's all that matters, and I can definitely see the fun in it. EK is just giving you a warning based on his(?) own experience and in his own, uh, inimitable style - at least bear it in mind in case your game does start to go sideways. The earlier you can catch it the easier it'll be to fix.

One cool thing about having a big, old battlecruiser will be the sheer amount of flavour - secrets, hidden ways, crew clans and guilds, forgotten holds...

At the very least you should have a senichal who is visibly distraught every time the captain orders the nova cannon fired. If it is a PC getting them to mutter about how it would be cheaper just to buy the enemy ship or something could be funny once in a while ( mileage may vary here) .

One thing i do like about expendable assets is that it is not beyond reason to imagine there value can be used out of combat as well. In the current game i am running the players started off with a huge ship loaded with goodies and very little PF to replenish them...in fact no way because they had a PF in the teens. They quickly realsised that the 20 something torpedoes would not last that long so where very stingy with them, reserving them for large/ boss fights. They have actually traded more torpedoes away for hull repairs than they have fired, in the long run getting farther ahead then the damage would alone. It is not a stretch to me to imagine nova shells and wings of fighters/bombers would also be taken as barter on a repair station or navel base.

As a slight Dues ex machina i do sometimes allow them to find one or two torpedoes as salvage from enemy vessels.

Having a way overpowered ship for your PF is perfect stuff for roleplaying (as opposed to rollplaying and bookkeeping that most of the acquisition/maintenance stuff is.).

Run out of Nova cannon rounds or torpedoes, time to call a favor from Navy or end up owing favours to the ("Sir, You have such magnificient ship with illustrious history. Of course naval depot 616 will be happy to resupply you battecruiser, for a little favour (or two). Actually we're going up against pretty big wolfpack in a month and we could use a help from such magnificient ship as yours...") or go begging money from banker houses etc. Or attract eye of inquisition or go criminal.

I think (as not that much of a number cruncer). That nova cannon should follow the time honoured anime tradition of "Macross Canon". In essence of buggy weapon that can obliderate small enemy fleet but is buggy as hell (especially because even the rogue traders cant get the prime 'cause thats for the navy). So make the nova cannon like (for example), when fired it makes 1D5 components unpowered for 1D5-2 rounds each.

Just me 'nd my two €cents

./At0miclich

I was going to shout Tronium Buster Cannon fire every time we used it but I liked super robot wars to much

The use of assets is always guaranteed, especially when said assets are combat-oriented assets in a RPG that features epic combat. Who are you kidding? "My paladin has a +7 vorpal dancing sword of soul-sucking, but I won't ever use it because it might stain my soul." Right.

This. All of this.

@Greystroke: I predict that within 2 sessions, you're waving around your Battlecruiser and registering epic plot derailments on the Henderson scale. Players don't get powerful ships, items, etc... and not use them. In fact, any time a player has asked for something powerful, or taken advantage of rules to acquire them, it has been purely for their own benefit... not for story purposes. They may honestly be interested in RP and story, but with powerful stuff comes the simple solution to problems.

Give back the ship. Play the game and work towards things like that.

The use of assets is always guaranteed, especially when said assets are combat-oriented assets in a RPG that features epic combat. Who are you kidding? "My paladin has a +7 vorpal dancing sword of soul-sucking, but I won't ever use it because it might stain my soul." Right.

I always found that if you either make the big assets one off things or make it clear that using said assets means crossing the Godzilla Threshold ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodzillaThreshold ) then people are usually fairly conservative about bringing out the big guns.

Imagine if each Nova Cannon shell was an acquisition test

"Sir the enemy is in range. Shall we fire the Nova Cannon."

"Emperor's teeth! Do you think I'm made of thrones? Just hail them and threaten to fire the Nova Cannon."

Each nova cannon shell is an acquisition test.

"Emperor's teeth! Do you think I'm made of thrones? Just hail them and threaten to fire the Nova Cannon."

This might even actually work I'm going to assume, and be pleasantly surprised, if proven wrong, that few people here (read: none) have played the Suikoden games, but in Suikoden V, somewhere around the 3/4 way point, you encounter forces of the Island Nations, what used to be Obel, in Suikoden IV, and their biggest pirate-hunting boat, the Lino En Kuldes, had rune cannons on it. These weapons were so feared by other sailors, for they could sink a galleon in just a few hits, that most people bowed out, and surrendered, rather than risk their much smaller pirate ships, and crews, to the fusillade. It worked for years, but what they didn't know was that the LEK hadn't had rune shells for decades; the people had forgotten how to make them, as Warlock and Pablo didn't pass it on. When you actually find a cache, with some of the Island Federation people in tow, you elect to destroy them, rather than see ANY nation have their destructive power.

Yeah, I HAVE built numerous characters with silly bonuses/powers, INTENDING never to use them, and holding onto them like some sort of one-time "get out of TPK free" card; I'm actually very good at getting my GMs to allow it, based on my personal track record, and only played the abuse card once, but one should always know what their plan is. Mine is usually an "I'm a snowflake masquerading as a role-player, but I'll do my best to fit in", but my GMs know that, and work accordingly. As for the Nova Cannons, I still say I see them as too much, and unnecessary. If you aren't fighting fleets of enemies, and/or da Wurldbreaka', do you really need space's own template weapon? There just seem to be so many better choices for that prow slot, and ones you don't have to feel guilty about using, or need to justify wasting ammo.

Sorry Venk, but that dog won't hunt in my forest. You say you're good at talking your GMs into letting you play the snowflake. What I hear is that your venue has permissive GMs. You say that you've only had to use the nuclear option once. What I hear is that these permissive GMs frequently establish no-lose situations. No surprise there. You say that your GMs permit you the red button since you don't use it.

You see, using the nuclear option or passing the Godzilla Threshold, if you will, only counts when presented with a no-win situation. Quantity doesn't apply here. Having not used the red button through thousands of No-lose situations doesn't count. I'm not trying to be overly critical here. You've always been candid about your venue's preference for cheese, and that takes a certain courage. Kudos for that. Some people prefer the superhero approach, and that's okay as long as no one is trying to present it as the "mere mortal" approach.

The problem with the 40K venue is that it's a "mere mortal" universe, but the only fluff/fiction available to read involves that one-in-a-billion luck scenario that wins in spite of the odds. That much is reasonable given the trillions of humans present and thousands of wars going on simultaneously in the universe. But even worse, we have Gaunt, Cain and other cheesy characters in the fluff/fiction that defy the odds multiple times, which just shouldn't be. They should all die the next time they try the impossible, but authors sell sequels better than new characters. Many players want to recreate that scenario and it isn't reasonably possible within the confines of a role-playing game without reliance on lots of stinky cheese and whine. Personally, I have a great preference for stinky cheese (especially soft-ripened bleus), but I have zero-tolerance for the whine.

So please don't get defensive over this post. I respect your venue's campaigns even if they aren't for me. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those "all that matters is you're having fun" types. I reserve the right to ridicule adults engaging in the juvenile. Role-playing is something that people evolve in over time, and the games you engage in at ages 10, 25, and 50 will vary greatly. You'll see. In the meantime, I fully expect teenagers to engage in the juvenile, and I expect adults to engage in something more meaty.

As for the nova cannons, I don't have an issue with them. They can be devastating weapons but their drawbacks are sufficient enough to deter their overuse. I've run enough campaigns where the option to employ one was present, yet the players never even attempted to acquire one. I think that speaks for itself.

I can appreciate what you say, and thank you for it. I admit that, when I feel like it, I do often get some cheese in my characters; it makes up for the CHEESE the GM pulls, regardless of what we are doing. With what you say for 40K, though, makes for among the worst idea of an RPG; a scenario where, try as you might, you SHOULDN'T survive, and you won't, so just don't get too attached to that character, maybe have a few other faceless schmoes on standby, as you will need them. 40K is grimdark, certainly, and I like to think that the only real reason that the Imerpium survives is because it's so vast, even taking half of it from them isn't really taking enough territory to cripple them, and they do have a few key strongholds that have had every option purchased, and will hold against any threat (Terra, McCragge, Cadia; these get hit, and hard, from time to time, but come sunrise, they still belong to the saviors of Mankind), but while I can see not wanting the cheese option, I would never want to play something where you know you will die, and you'll never win anything, which is, in my quick read, what you sort of say 40K is like. Can you save the day? Maybe till tomorrow. Are we ever going to kill off Chaos? Nope. Are the Nids going anywhere? Not that we want them to. Are the Orks in any danger of going extinct? ...there was a long laugh in this interim... but people still play it, for the little, personal victories that they can still have.

I had a friend who liked to run Shadowrun, back at the turn of the millennium, and I have to admit I don't know much about that game, beyond everyone will get a smartlink, and deckers can't play with anyone else, because it's practically a different game for them. I played a few sessions one time with a different GM, and found it interesting, but challenging, and I'm not sure what the "average" lethality of it is supposed to be (my "decker" [GM demanded a bit of different stuff, because otherwise h plays separately] as my character had so much cyberware that he was pretty durable, but this first mentioned GM, whom I did not take up, said everyone had to build seven characters, and hold the rest in reserve, for when they died. I'd rather not play something that lethal. Like you asked me, please don't get to pissed that I'm dragging this out needlessly, but I'm not sure what you/your friends do in RT, or 40k in general, that isn't tainted by "oh yeah, and tomorrow we all die, because that's what people do in 40K." I'm going to hop off this soapbox now, because I really do enjoy debating, if you will, the various aspects of all this, compared to blatant dismissive tendency some people I know might give. Please have a great day, and thanks for the chat.

Now I never suggested that games should be so deadly that all the characters die frequently. I just don't draw up Endeavors that put players in the position of Gaunt, Cain, etc. If villains follow the same rules as player characters then cheese is unnecessary, even unbalancing. You hit on an important point, though, and that's that the players can affect things locally. No, the Orks aren't going extinct, but the players can turn back a small WAAAGH! Chaos won't be utterly defeated, but the players can thwart one of their schemes. Just these scenarios can be epic enough. Take the Warpstorm Trilogy as an example. The players in that, if successful, won't defeat Chaos in the Expanse, but they can set it back decades and defeat a Chaos Champion in the process and that's pretty epic. No cheese necessary beyond that already presented. To be fair, if I ran that again, I'd remove the cheese from those modules. I find the whole thing epic enough without the cheese.

I'm not very conversant in Shadowrun beyond a general concept, but the examples you give are reminiscent of Paranoia with a GURPS Cyberpunk twist. Those are fun enough games, though not ones I really got into. I like character development. Then again, the best ones I played in were tournament modules only designed to last for 3 sessions.

I'm always into talking game philosophy. I like following any number of blogs about improving roleplaying. I don't think I come across as strong as the AngryGM (as an example) but I admit to having similar opinions.