dutpotd said:

Eh!? I'm thoroughly confused by your statement.

A +0M block can block EVERYTHING. A +0H block can never block low attacks...

If this is a Path deck, then Knight Breaker has even less of a place there. I'd consider Toughest in the Universe only if there were more Stun attacks (although the reduction is sexy). I'd also suggest dropping Knight Breaker for a more generic attack such as Over the Shoulder, which will not only guarantee damage if blocked, but also has a free E on it that either pumps itself or disrupts the opponent.

Most of the damage from an attack string will come from the inevitable, almost unblockable, Path attack at the end of the string, which for all we care can be a deadly Pommel Smash. Four attacks, ending in a Pommel Smash, will make it be >13 damage, so why care about having to pull off a Combo ability when the damage potential of ANYTHING can suffice? Assume you have 3 attacks but not the combo, and still decide on playing Knight Breaker at the end of the chain. Committing Path, it's still only 12-13 damage depending on how many resources the attack before it has. Let's imagine this:

Hammer of the Gods, Hammer of the Gods, Knight Breaker + Path = without any other damage pump, 4+4+11 = 19.

Hammer of the Gods, Hammer of the Gods, Over the Shoulder + Path = without any other damage pump, 4+4+10 = 18.

Now throw in the fact that by the time you ply Over the Shoulder, the opponent will not likely have foundations to commit, and with its built-in E it gives itself +2 damage.

Also consider that IF the opponent has something ready, it will be Paid to Protect by their choice. Full blocking Knight Breaker would suck. Full-blocking Over the Shoulder means they'll still take half.

Now compare that with the times you draw Pommel Smash as your only high attack, giving Knight Breaker +1.

I say test both.

guitalex2008 said:

There are a lot of high powered high attacks that, if fully blocked, deal no damage (net life save is great). Compare this to the high powered mid attacks out there (most of which are heavily routed in combo and mid/late game in nature), and relative to the number of mid blocks already in this deck (see all of his redundant assets are mids) and Vik would need to be high as a kite to take out his only good high block mod. The Hata before us is a prime example of a deck that is slightly slowed down by high blocks, namely the launcher/breaker combo has a hard time busting through high blocks if Hata isn't changing zones.

In other words, he needs the spread of blocks, and should try to get some low block mod low blocks in the deck, with The Ultimate Team out he doesn't have anything better than +3 mod low block... If he took out his only 'decent' high block he'd be even more in trouble.

Being able to block anything half isn't as efficient as being able to block the majority of things fully, which is what a full spread will give him. The reason for this is that only 70% of a attacks damage comes from it's damage, often the other 30% or more of the pain is a 'if this attack deals damage' ability. Then again, if he is only finding that he holds onto one card, it might as well be the mid block mod. Still, the abilities on KB are too good to pass up, as are the option to witness the opponents deck and know to hold onto a high mod block.

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As confused as you are about me saying it is 75% case by case better to run a spread of blocks, which it is, to completely eliminate damage in more cases... I am even more confused by your statement that KB isn't a path card.

KB goes with path, it shares 2 symbols with Hata and has a symbol-specific ability... The same cannot be said of any of the other attacks in this deck. You are still looking at KB as a combo card, i.e. one that is there primarily to deal damage, which is in fact secondary to it's control and synergy functions.

I don't disagree with your 'a throw can help' mentality. I just don't think he needs more abilities that push damage through, Hata by definition (zone and speed pump on him) should give him enough to push through allowing him to run non-throws and cost-damage efficient attacks where other decks cannot.

I also think you are thinking too late into the game, KB is nice becuase it is 5 damage pre-pump for the same difficulty as the 4 damage throw you are suggesting. With just it in the card pool KB becomes +1 draw and +2 damage, wheras the throw is only getting +1 damage from Path. I suppose if you go heavy into the commit out strategy over the shoulder is a very good card, but you need to see how many times you are able to fully commit the opponent out, and this is a very 'all eggs in one basket' approach and Torn Hero frowns more heavily on it.

Not to mention KB can kill Torn Hero if played properly. I just think KB is invaluable to this deck becuase Hata's ability to push damage through gives it a selective destroy ability that others can't, and I feel Alex is pushing too far along tangents that aren't this deck's bread and butter with his suggestions to change the attack lineup.

- dut

Okay couple of things -

At Shane - I think you misunderstand the reason behind IP/ALIP in the deck now, basically I would rather have 3-4x Ultimate Team and PTP in those slots but I can't acquire them. It's NOT my first choice but it is a very powerful and effective package switch. This is the best substitute in terms of card control and maintaining that aggressiveness, and the best thing is after I have used and commited cards for various effects I can blow them to IP and usually nab something of my opponents since they won't block anyway.

Still, again I repeat that IF I had the UTs and PTPs they would be in, instead, after looking at a lot of options for the foundations and giving me reasons against some other choices, I decided this would be the best option. So far I think it's fine, and get nasty, so we'll see. Further testing required, subject to change.

For The Money back in a permanent, 3 looks good right now but I might drop one ALIP for the 4th FTM. Depends on how the games go in practice mode Thurs/Fri.

At Alex - dude KB is retarded. It hits hard, breaks ****, often comes for 12 - without Hata pumps - with the combo (it's easier to pull off then you might think) and now also fuels ALIP. Not cutting them, nuff said. +0H, it's Hata, etc., and come one comparing to Cleave??? Dude, **** Cleave, it ain't even in the same league. I am very aware that Hata doesn't trigger off stun, that is not a factor with the speed/damage pump numbers I get.

Hammer is jey because it is Mid to set up KB combos, has Stun:2 and is abusive with best Friends, has a built in damage pump (usually +3) and also fuels Neutron Bomb's Combo E. That's why it's awesome.

Hope that helps y'all understand my reasoning a bit better, I gotta say I am loving this discussion and it's been extremely helpful, thanks to all again.