Well, so I haven't posted a deck in the forums, except for my archived tourney-winning decks. However, after getting some advice on AIM and from others over the phone, I'm pretty happy with my build of the deck so far, and would like some general feedback, so thanks in advance for any comments. I know that a common complaint (addressed on the podcast) is that competitive tournament players rarely post their decks anymore and all the real talk is done on fbook or aim, but I really value any and all advice and don't believe in "secret tech" or withholding information, so here goes:

Starting Character - James Hata, 6HS 28V

Abilities - E, commit one foundation: Change this zone of this attack to any other zone.
R: After you commit a foundation, your attack gets +1 speed and +1 damage.

Assets (5):

2x 2/5 Path Of The Master +2M
3x 2/5 Gianzende Nova and Frischer Himmel +2M

Attacks (19):

4x 5/3 Hammer Of the Gods +2H
4x 5/3 Knight Breaker +0H
4x 4/3 Midnight Launcher
4x 4/3 Neutron Bomb +2M
3x 3/3 Pommel Smash

Foundations (36):

4x 3/5 The Ultimate Team +3L
4x 3/5 Enraged Golem
4x 2/5 Stand-Off +3L
4x 2/5 Financial Troubles
3x 2/5 Best Friends +3H
3x 2/5 From The Mouse, Humility +3L
3x 2/5 In Search Of Plunder +3M
3x 2/5 Paid To Protect +3M
4x 1/5 Brooding +3H
4x 0/5 Hope For One's People +3H

Total: 60+1 cards (I run an extra card to help the check ratio slightly since I run 19 attacks instead of 18, and also to get one extra foundation in the deck.)

Sideboard (8):

3x 2/5 Intimidating Presence

4x 2/4 Martial Arts Champion

1x Pommel Smash

I will explain about the deck a bit, and individual choices. Fire is arguably the best resource in the game, and James' card has some very powerful advantages over other top tier Fire builds. Namely, his incredible response ability is amazing, and abusable. With the foundation base built to exploit E commit effects, the +1/+1 bonuses pile onto attacks very quickly and add up, and of course his own enhance ability can trigger the R as well. Speaking of which, another big advantage for James is his defensive abilities. The fact that he can change zones makes pushing attacks through very hard for some characters, especially those like Heihachi and Ivy that can trigger stupid crap off of dealing damage. I would rank Astrid and Rashotep as the top decks in the format and James is able to go toe to toe with them very well because of his speed power. He's about 50-50 with Astrid and 60-40 with Rasho pre-sideboard, but closer to 70-30 for both after sideboard. That's not quite where I want it but it's much better than most and I can deal with anything else fairly well.

Assets - I use two Paths, for painfully obvious reasons, and three of Hilde's asset. The ATL crew swear by this card, and now I understand why. It's brutal as hell! Drawing cards, pumping speed, yikes. That speed bonus is especially brutal on top of James' Rs. Hammer 8M for 15, anyone? Speaking of which...

Attacks - I love the attack lineup. Talking to Matt and James individually, they each also have a Hata deck with different builds and attack bases (James had a Death build with LaunchBreak and Matt has Fire with Dragon Flame combo), however I also got extremely positive feedback from them on my lineup which is tuned for specific reasons, so I haven't changed it. I don't think I need to say much about Knight Breaker or Midnight Laucher, we all know what they do and they do it extremely well, especially with the speed/samage bonuses aplenty factored in. Hammer of the Gods is THE ****. It routinely is my first attack, and not only does it start the Knight Breaker combo sequence but by itself it frequently hitting for 12-15 damage. Neutron Bomb is another total stud. It's combo enhance is frequently in play, and I'll regularly do stuff like Hammer at 5 into Bomb at 5 into "free" (autocheck) Launcher in KB at 8, check a 5 commit 3 and use anything left to pump the hell out of it. The regular E is tremendous, it replaces itself and triggers James to boot. Finally, Pommel Smash requires no explanation, with Rasho and other lame crap all over the place running these is critical. And they can hit for A LOT as well, I've won games where I drew a single Pommel Smash with 8 or so foundations out and proceed to make it into a frigging uber-fast Earth Divide. the control this card offers is amazing, ruining opposing defensive cards - especially Paid To Protect. It's so good I run a 4th in my sideboard, to swap for a Neutron Bomb if needed.

Foundations - Matt gave me the best suggestion for this section, the Ultimate Team, and it's amazing. Most of the foundations are pretty self-explanatory - the usual fire base of Stand-Off, Brooding, HFOP, Paid To Protect and Financial Troubles is all there. Enraged Golem is there for face-smashing power. Aside from PTP, the other 3-offs all serve different and useful functions in the deck. From The Mouse is recursion in later turns if you need it, and at worst can function as momentum removal and STILL trigger James on your attacks. It also has a low block and can feed Ultimate Team well, which is a plus. In Search Of Plunder is better than most think. Again, instead of simply a +2 boost for 2 vitality, in this deck that becomes a +1S/+3D boost instead. And it can be used over and over if necessary. Furthermore, there is the sneaky use of forcing yourself into desperation if you must to get HFOP online. Best Friends, meanwhile, can actually trigger James twice, has two great Es and makes HOTG and Pommel Smash even more insane. Pretty much every foundation can trigger James either directly or indirectly, and the numbers are really solid for getting very good if not lethal second turns consistently. And notice, no 4ccs, I only run 3s and 5s so I can always calculate exact mathematics and I won't get screwed over by random 4ccs, as has been known to happen!

Sideboard - MAC is so critical it's not even funny, in fact I really would run them main - it's THAT good right now and just wrecks some characters hardcore - but the lack of block and 4CC mean they are here for now. Subject to change. In addition to the extra Smash, I use IP as a control of sorts if I feel I need it for a paricular matchup. There's nothing like blowing up stupid **** that your opponent has out!

And that's the deck. Again, I know few have his card but James is definitely a top tier character, and in my mind no worse than 3rd or 4th in the format. He's fast and furious, has a big vitality and good defensive properties and puts a lot of pressure on the opponent early and often. In testing so far the deck has won about 86% of it's games and around 79% of its matches against a wide variety of opponents and I'm pretty confident with it, so hopefully it will do well at SAS. We shall see...let me know what you think guys, thanks again.

dis baaaaad

jay kay, but ya hilde green card is teh wowz - Hata 2

.........................................................................................

Yes, full credit to Team Lion Stance for setting me straight about the raw power of JIMMY KIMMEL!

Also, I should mention this deck was created by Jeremy (Jay) Post, Awaken on the forums, NOT by me. I just tweaked the numbers and the card pool, but the core is his, so credit where it is due.

To be honest, I'd like to build a James Hata with Rivalry with a Bear. I just think it's funny that he gives +1/+1, then +3 unless your opponent blows something up.

Then again my build would have All Life is Prey, which adds up to the hilarity or Rivalry with a Bear in JH.

Which begs the quesion of why not put it in there (All Life is Prey)? Sure, you're not blowing anything up, but you would get +1/+1 regardless.

And also, if you're planning on stunning a lot, why not consider For the Money for check making (or forcing committals)? It's a 2/5 with a +3M, so statistically it's as good as it could be in the current format.

yeah i think its ok

I had Rivarly with a Bear in the first build, but it actually sucks ass, true story. 80% of the time it's cancelled. Yes I get the +1/+1, so what? All my other stuff is far better at doing that anyway. And it's all guaranteed. I replaced them with The Ultimate Team and now the deck is far, far better for it. Same thing with All Life Is Prey - why play a two marginal cards that do marginal things together when I can just play more important cards that I will gain the bonus off anyway? It's not worth it. Ultimate Team, Enraged Golem, and even In Search Of Plunder are better, for far less cost or hassle.

For The Money was in the deck as well, but again, it's marginal and I replaced it Paid To Protect. I can't say that's a bad swap either...

For a number of reasons, but mostly becuase your rejuvenated interest in the game and recent contributions via articles and activity in general has me holding you in high esteem, I thought it would be appropriate to comment on your Hata deck.

Hata is a very good character. Let's not mince any words here, he has access to an ability that changes zones, which has and always will be a great ability, and he has access to speed/damage pump. All things considered he has access to 2 different ways to push damage through built into him, and let's not forget the ability to defend/block that his ability also gives to him.

In Block 3 I built him off of Air and Fire, and recently with standard Block 4 I've built him off Fire and Death. I can tell you that Fire is better, but only marginally so becuase of access to slightly better attacks, draw, and abilities to help pass multiple attacks without commiting foundations (said foundations are needed to commit for character abilities to trigger or be played). If you like playing a more random game, or one with a bit more control/defense then Death with Cursed Blood is probably more your style. Nevertheless you have opted for Fire, which is telling me you value the ability to kill sooner and with early control (stun) over the ability to manipulate and survive later (response to stun, among blanking and other crazy effects).

Errors in your decklist presentation that you may care to fix:

Ultimate Team is +2L, not +3

Standoff is +3M, not a L

Cards your deck are missing that I've seen in many Fire Hata's:

From the Hawk, Alertness

For the Money

Hungry for Battle

Communing with the Ancients

... Off the top of my head that's all I got.

Cards I'm not too sure about in your deck:

Standoff - you don't appear to have a lot of foundations per se, and I'm not sure that with the volume of attacks in your deck this will be used often enough. Granted it is +5 damage if going through, but for comitting 2 foundations it probably isn't worth it.

Financial Troubles - I really don't think this goes that well in this deck, many players aren't going to be able to block your speed pumped/zone changed attacks, so discarding a card will almost always be the choice the opponent makes.

Hammer of the Gods - The Ultimate Team - I'd have to see it in testing to be sure, but I think you might be card poor with your deck in situations where you attack and don't kill. i.e. a lot of your defenses might be gone, and the opponent's Financial Troubles might really hurt this deck. That said, you do have the asset for draw, you do have neutron's draw that I like w/ Hata, and you are probably loving the Path + Breaker combo in the games where it is out. Just something I'd monitor for now.

In Search of Plunder - Brooding - These are personal choice cards, and they work 'ok' with Hope, Plunder doesn't work too badly with Hata. All things considered these are average cards, that aren't ever going to turn the tide, but will nevertheless always be useful and possibly be the last damage needed on an attack . . . for a cost. Keep in mind, I love these cards in decks that throw multiple attacks easily and early, this deck might not do that, granted 2/3 of it's draw comes from attacks, and you don't have anything other than a certain attack to help with checks to play multiple attacks. Again, I'd watch these, something better might come to mind.

Summary:

The deck is pretty solid. One that is probably surprisingly defensive when it needs to be.

The decks' weaknesses are probably checking poorly and going against Torn Hero or reversal pommels. Let's face it, without Hata, this deck is very standard Fire fare and is that much weaker. Bad draws (too many attacks early and not enough foundations) might also give it a slow start every now and then. The deck has damage reduction, but it doesn't really have response to commital or other control elements.

A discard deck could probably have a fun time with this Hata, and there isn't an answer to assets to be found. Destruction, particularly Nightmare and maybe Kazuya, might have some fun slowing you down becuase the checks are already pretty bad (w/ so many attacks).

I'd probably favor Astrid 6.5/10 against this deck, King is probably near 7/10 with Torn Hero lurking and Earth damage redux, and Rasho might be at 6/10. You don't have a lot of low blocks, so blocking big Lows early, see Hieachi, will be hard (yes you can commit to change zone, but how many foundations you have to do so will run out quickly early and his low attacks can come at you hard). I'm not saying you won't find relative sucess with this deck, just that the way it is built at current and it's available counters to other top tier decks might see it falter in the upper eschelon of competition.

- dut

thanks for the credit on the deck sir!

let me say this...i have been on the bad end of this deck for testing purposes and this deck is sick...i think i might be saying this because its my deck and iam biased but i also have been getting my face ripped off by it for testing purposes and let me tell you, Hammer of the Gods and The Ultimate Team do work we have tested lol...iam looking forward to see Vik pilot this beast against the awesome playfield of players coming to the SAS...

Thank you for your thorough critique dutpotd, I will answer your concerns as best I can.

First, as far as the errors, I posted it without double checking so I apologize, I will correct those errors. Second, Communing With Ancients is great, but for my 3-diffs I prefer Enraged Golem and The Ultimate Team, both of which are much better damage pumps. I like +1, but with the Neutron combo and the lack of 4CCs my checks are very good actually, so I have never needed it. The bonus to the checks is not worth the subpotimal card choice. For the Money, as I explained in my reply to Alex above, was getting countered too often, had marginal use in the first place and was swapped for a much better card, Paid To Protect. From The Hawk and Hungry For Battle are both cards that I have considered, but at the moment I don't see what to cut. I will probably drop something (Maybe From The Mouse) just because of the numbers game, though I have to say the recycling from FTM,H is quite good. Hungry For Battle rolls a 4, has no block which hurts for The Ultimate Team, and though is amazingly good I don't think the 4CC is worth it. On that note, you say my checks aren't that great, but having no 4CCs is actually tremendous and I'll probably drop one Neutron Bomb in the final cut anyway, so 18/59 should be fine. That's the average and the difference is I have on 4s, so what's wrong with my checks? The deck checks great.

As for some of your other suggestions or comments, they puzzle me for sure. I can't believe that you are seriously suggesting cutting Standoff in a deck with 7 Stun attacks, a foundation that pumps Stun bonuses. I have 36 foundations in a 60 card deck, which is plenty. And, again, Standoff is quite retarded. Both offensively and especially defensively, there is not reason NOT to play with the card. Commit two foundations for +1 Speed and +5 damage??? When my opponent is often committed? Plus all my other damage bonuses are adding speed? I must strongly, strongly STRONGLY disagree with you on this.

Financial Troubles is another one that makes no sense. This card is a staple in every Fire deck for a reason. For one thing, If I have use of it I will play it's Form after my attacks for the turn, not before. I rarely play it first unless my opponent has one or less cards in hand. However, even if they have two or more left (two is often the average now), that card puts tremendous strain on an opponent. There is literally no drawback, and if I don't have need of it then I will use it to fuel Hata's abilities or my other foundations. This also is one reason why Hammer Of the Gods and Ulitmate Team work so well, because FT fuels them. Again, this is a head-scratcher.

Brooding, yet again, is amazing. That damage boost for very negligible cost is awesome, and it can be used for a commit effect later. WIth more than one brooding out early, I can do some serious face-bursting. Same goes for In Search of Plunder, which also triggers Hata. +1 speed/+3 damage guaranteed for 2 vitality is not bad. And don't underestimate the interaction with Hope For One's Friends, which has won me many games by tossing a Pommel Smash that commits jank, using both these cards to get to desperation, commiting the board and tossing the real attacks or using Neutron Bomb's combe E afterwards for a "free" attack.

"The decks' weaknesses are probably checking poorly and going against Torn Hero or reversal pommels. Let's face it, without Hata, this deck is very standard Fire fare and is that much weaker. Bad draws (too many attacks early and not enough foundations) might also give it a slow start every now and then. The deck has damage reduction, but it doesn't really have response to commital or other control elements."

The deck is BUILT around Hata and specifically Hata. It may have many cards that a generically good but this is as specific to him as can be. The low check thing I already explained, I have never had a problem drawing too many attacks early (I have yet to mulligan in any game) and I think, once again - with The Ultimate Team, Standoff and PTP you understimate my defense, as well as James zone-changing. I don't have answers to everything nor do I expect to, as this is tuned Fire aggro deck. I have planned for the meta as best as I can and that's that. On top of that, you ignore my sideboard, which is built to deal with problem foundations, and features negation and an extra smash for more control. And I hear Knight Breaker is good at destroying things...

Again, my checks are not bad. we played Death Jin with all sorts of destruction effects and it didn't matter much, if at all. Asset hate I agree is nice, but again I have Intimidating Presence in my sideboard and KB. I don't see discard being an issue at all, considering how much draw effect I actually have, and so far it hasn't been. Torn Hero IS a major *****, that I definitely agree with, but I can deal with it in the main and play around it, and after sideboarding my job getting rid of them becomes much easier. I don't have to commit my opponent's things to win, I'll just commit my own and pump something to high heaven. As for your predictions, that makes no sense. You are anticipating matchups based on a deck that you have never played with, what? What is the purpose of your mythical numbers, exactly? My actual numbers are far better than that, I assure you.

Thank very much for your comments, while I disagree with the vast majority of them for the explicit reasons I've laid out I still appreciate the response a lot and it is definitely helpful to me. I will consider From The Hawk and Ready For Battle and drop an attack for sure, and may make other changes. However, I must reiterate that some of what you say is very confusing to me, then perhaps I am mistaken. Thanks again.

Thank you for the even more thorough response to my brief critique. I half expected your response, anytime I paint a practical picture out of Standoff and Financial Troubles I usually get a brow-beating.

Here's the way I see it, except for decks that a) outbuild, or b) win the stun war handily, standoff is not 'efficient'. Even in your case we are talking about a card that gives +2.5 damage for a commit and +.5 speed, and that is if it isn't countered . If you don't draw into pommel or the other stun card (I count 7 cards with stun). You can't honestly expect to get the damage bonus out of it when you 'need' it. Granted you don't have any stun negation (commit hate) I'm struggling to see how you can use the -4 damage 'reliably' either, becuase a deck that doesn't want you to will make sure you don't have the resources to. These are just my observations from countless games where players go - Standoff, auto-include, when in fact it is very far from it.

Financial Troubles has a pretty big drawback, namely it commits a card that you could otherwise use to kill. Comitting one card early means a lot to an agro deck, it could possibly mean not killing that turn. I understand the 'if I don't have need of it agrument', but you have a lot of cards like that already, Hope, Brooding sometimes, etc. and it is always better to have need of something and be weighing off between the better of two playable abilities than just having the one option.

All I'm saying is both of those cards are highly overrated, excellent in decks that use them well (resource driven decks), but not the 'best' or most 'efficient' choices in certain decks. I happen to believe your Hata here is one of them.

A card that isn't efficient isn't an agro card. In order to be in my agro deck I look for a card that will do exactly what I want it to do, and better than any other option, becuase if it doesn't I may not win early, and if I don't win early my agro deck surely won't be able to compete with one that is better suited for a mid/long game. I guess for the same reason you decided For the Money wasn't working you should also consider taking out Standoff and Financial Troubles. Just consider it, especially if you are replacing with a more reliable and efficient pump.

I don't underestimate your defense, trust me, I said one of the better parts about Hata and what you have in there is that it will be surprisingly defensive, and can probably push mid/long games on damage redux and blocking alone if not facing an extremely well tailored and targeted attack.

36 foundations seems like plenty, it isn't so much the number that I am commenting on though. I am commenting on the number of foundations you will have in play relative to your opponent. A 7hs character with 36 foundations will outbuild you, standoff loses a lot of use, a deck that can pass foundations after attacks will outbuild you (see Jin), and any deck with Cursed Blood will also outbuild you. This is my point about foundations. Your deck isn't a build deck, it is an agro deck, yet you have resource based cards in it. Albeit you are choking the resources with stun, this alone is not enough to have the optimal synergy between resource based cards - at least in my experience.

Your sideboard doesn't make a lot of sense to me, reason being that your opponent drawing cards isn't a big threat to you, granted your speed pump says 'no block'. To me a bigger threat to they way you are playing Hata (stun and respond) would be Torn Hero, the counter to that card that Fire has is Memories that Stain It's Armor so that the Hero can only be used once before having to be recurred somehow.

I did see the use of Brooding/Plunder/Launcher re: Hope. This is all well and good. I am just saying Plunder and Brooding may both have more 'efficient' replacements. MAY. I was just speaking my mind, there is no doubt they are all good choices, I am just suspecting that there may be better. I try to squeeze every ounce out of my decks, please don't take my comments as anything other than trying to assist others to do the same.

My mythical numbers (you give me too much credance, to call them mythical, made-up off the top of head interactions are more realistic ways to describe the numbers I tossed around) have the sole purpose of identifying match-ups against top tier characters and in my mind running your potential against theirs, specifically addressing in my mind which ones have access to cards or play that may give you particular trouble.

One thing I haven't touched on is the control check thing. I am simply thinking of the amount of resources you have and what strain might happen if you hit one of your 3s, which is closing in on 1/3 of the deck. Probably closer to 2/7 of the deck.

In any case, with 36 cards foundations let's say you draw 4 foundations 33% of the time, 3 foundations 57% of the time, and 2 foundations 10% of the time. The one time you draw 2 you are mulliganing probably. Unless there is an asset, and 2 foundations and asset is acceptable to you. Let's also assume when you draw 4 foundations 30% of the time you play 3 and then fail, and 70% of the time you can nail off all 4 (probably possible with all your 5s). So, in a ideal situation you draw 4 foundations and play 4 foundations. I guess ideally you could even hit 5, or 4 and an asset, if you do hit your 5s, and 2/3 in a row I see it is possible, that is if you draw into that hand as well. The way I see it, with 4 foundations, if you hit a 3 (which is 2/7 of the time) on any of 3 attacks you are probably not throwing out more than 20 damage that turn, granted your attacks go 5/5/x, where x is either 7 or a lot less if that middle one is your bomb.

All I was meaning to say was that hitting a 3 on your attack string (unless you start with pommel) will slow you down or render you incapable of turn 2/3 kill. Compare this to a character like Jin or one that abuses Communing and you have your deck suffering if it hits the 2/7 of the deck that forces you to commit to pass.

But yea, w/o 2 checks, and w/o any 4s, I agree it probably does give you a lot of confidence playing foundations and attacks on 5s (either you get it or you don't none of this hairy in between). I worded what I meant to say wrong, and I'm sorry - your deck does check relatively well, just when it doesn't check optimally it has a hard time doing what it needs to (this really isn't a detractor, any deck that relies on attack strings or playing more than a single card can falter when checking poorly, that is the nature of the game, me stating the obvious is/was just rendundant and I apologize).

I do hope that you give some thought to my comments above, do at least try making your agro deck a mix of entirely efficient cards and not just that of great cards that may falter in certain circumstances. Every damage counts when playing agro, and if you have foundations give you +1 speed and +3/4 damage for a commit, not just +.5 and +2.5 like standoff does in some circumstances, you may be able to win even more matches. Then again Hata's always been a middle game winner to me, his abilities screams to use resources, and resources take time to come out, perhaps the option to pump or reduce is what he needs, it is really all up to you and what you want to accomplish.

- dut

Okay, thanks again for your response. I think we can agree to disagree on Standoff and Financial Troubles, though I do understand your argument and it's very valid (what is optimal for random Fire may not be optimal for me, etc.), however they have been nothing but amazing. In fact just a few hours ago I made a Pommel Smash 12 Low for 20 damage largely because of 3x Standoff. It is hard to deal with, even if cancelled it still grants me a boost, if I feel I don't have to use it I can commit it towards Hata's ability, Best Friends, or In Search Of Plunder and it's all good, or save it for defense. There is very little reason against Standoff in my mind, and again with FT. So that is something we won't agree on.

Now, I think fundamentally we differ on philosophy as well. You say you see Hata as a mid game character. I do not. He is a very fast, very aggresive character. I always start attacking on the 2nd turn, always. I think Awaken will confirm, I don't think there has been a single game in which I didn' t throw at least one attack for massive damage on the second turn. Sometimes, with a great draw, I can finish on the second turn as well. However, usually if not I will finish on the 3rd all the time. There has been exactly one game in all of testing so far in which Hata or my opponent's deck went to a 4th turn. It just doesn't happen; in the current meta, there is no mid game as far as I am concerned. This deck is very very aggressive and in my estimation is optimized for that.

Building has not been a problem for me, nor checking, in fact I always get at least 3 cards and often 4 in play on the first turn. If I add From the Hawk, that's another one-diff. I will tweak the numbers a bit maybe, that's about it. So far no issues.

Again we must strongly disagree on the sideboard. MAC is the best sideboard card bar none in the game. It negates ANY ability that adds cards to a hand - that's recursion, draw, Astrid's lame ****, etc., and you are telling me I don't have ways to deal with certain cards, well I say - true. IN THE MAIDECK, however Nightmare's bullcrap lets me cheat that, a lot. Again, we differ here.

I also think you misunderstand, I don't rely on attack strings. KB is great but I rarely use it for the Combo, as I don't need to. A single attack is pumped to high hell and too fast to block, and usually the second or third as well (not as much, just enough to get through or with the zone changing).

In the end, you have given me much to consider despite some fundamental differences of opinion, so I will weigh your words well. Thanks again for your comments, I appreciate the discussion of theory and the deck choices.

I'm enjoying this discourse and wish I had Hata in my card selection. I'm assuming the way the word "effeicent" is being used is that it is not easily negated by the opponent. I see that in Paul's support. Especially when you look at Paul's card that blows itself up if the opponent commits 2 cards. Paul gives another element of control making it easier for your cards to go through. Now it is what I would call aggro support and not pure aggro. I think that is the key issue. Now I must say that the deck would win a lot of games. It would have a problem if it doesn't build fast and attack at the same time. I think Hilde's reffersal would be nice but that's only because I don't have Launcher/Breaker set. Over all I thank you for contributing a good piece of tech to the meta to think on.

Finally some good discussion on these forums... the sort of discussion that usually only takes place in person or on AIM

Its funny how you both have entirely different viewpoints but both points are valid and both have got you far in your own UFS experiences.

As for the deck I would definately consider Hawk in here to better place your spammage, prolly in place over the Mouse simply because your looking to kill in one fell swoop in most cases and recuring things from the momentum may be a moot point. In All reality those cards are more filler then anything

I cant think of anything else at the moment with the small card pool that we currently have. Its hard not to have fillers

Yeah, that's the point of the forums. We might disagree, but it's all about exchange of ideas, that's the important part. And he has given me much to think about, so it's perfect. No complaints :-)

Sadly, looks like I'm not getting my playset of PTPs or Ultimate Teams done in time for SAS, so I'll have to change some stuff and wing it on the defense anyway...FML. Hawk is going in for sure, as a 3x, that much I know.

I'm glad you are getting some stuff out of it, I know I am learning from thinking and responding, and you put a lot of thought into your deck and your support for the decisions, I can't help but enjoy the back and forth ^^

Weird, I get two vibes from you. And thank you again for the response and for at least admitting some of my gripe with standoff and financial troubles (note - in your deck) is valid, that is usually better than Iwhat I get.

1st vibe, I kill/(game ends) turn 3 or 4. 2nd vibe, somehow you can pump pommel to 20 and with 3 standoffs. Of course this is possible turn 3 (each one gives you 5 = 17 one more it is there), but probably unlikely (3 of the same card and enough to commit out), so this must be your turn 4 - or maybe not?

I'm not saying mid-game is anything more than turn 4, in fact in our meta that is mid game. Early game is 2-3, mid is 4-5, 6+ is long. Then you have the fact that your deck is geared to kill early, I said I saw 'Hata' as a mid game character in general, what you have is not the 'average' Hata build, it is in fact better than average for sure.

At the same time, I feel most of your games are ending early becuase your opponent is equally agressive. If you play against a truly defensive character I'd say most would be turn 4/5.

Indeed 3 or 4 foundations is good, but against a Cursed Blood deck that is tossing 4 or 5, and then the same next turn after throwing an attack. I'm just saying, your deck has the right numbers, but Hata off Fire isn't a 'build' deck, it is an 'agro' deck. I've built the deck and run the numbers, you are looking at drawing and passing 4 25%-35% of games, 3 is very probable, and yeah, your 2 foundation instances are few and far between. But if it happens turn 2, in a game where throwing attacks is useless, that is probably game...

MAC is a good mainboard card if you don't want your opponent to draw, and yes it is a good sideboard card, but not necessarily for your deck. If your deck is agro, it isn't worried about some techy 'add card to hand' stuff that usually happens to any great effect on turn 3+ at the earliest. I'm just thinking it doesn't fit your direct goal, it is a very blanket response to things you might not be prepared for that are also defensive enough to recur or draw behind a defense. In other words, siding into MAC might get you a draw in game 2, stop the opponent from being shifty, it probably won't get you the win, adding something to combat your weaknesses or different 'agressive' options might be more appropriate and could help you break defenses to get the 2nd game win... As it stands pommel is the only card I like in your sideboard.

I don't get your reference to Nightmare's stuff... I think you are putting far too much stock in Intimidating presence, the opponent always destroys something they don't care about, never a valuable asset, and since you aren't a 'keep you down deck' it isn't really going to assist you in any way. Or is it, what am I missing? Maybe you are talking Breaker, which is correct, this card will help you a great deal, as will any other 'if this attack deals damage ability' with targeted destroy or manipulation, Hata will do damage with attacks (2 ways to push through) and Breaker is amazing. What you need to worry about are players that see it coming and can stop it from dealing damage early or don't commit the card that you want to destroy, it happens.

You don't rely on attack strings, but you certainly do if you are trying to kill turn 3 or less. You have cards that scream multiple attacks, pommel usually says follow up with a better attack, neutron bomb says play after and before follow up, most stun attacks say follow up to take advantage of a comitted opponent, 19 attacks says play multiple attacks, and certainly launcher says string of attacks, it must follow after another attack. And the whole point of running cards like Brooding and/or Searching for Plunder is to get multiple uses off them. So, as much as you don't rely on multiple passes of attacks you definately do play to their benefits to deal mass damage early which is your biggest threat.

To answer darklogos, when I say efficient I mean a number of things. I mean 'reliable', won't be countered often, and I mean 'bang for buck', standoff is 2.5 damage per commit in this deck, there are plenty of fire foundations that give +2 (and then with Hata +3) damage or more per commit, all of these offer more 'bang for buck' and are therefore more cost-benefit efficient. And managing these efficiencies is the way to win games. Similarily, a card like 'The Ultimate Team' is not as efficient as other damage pump or reducing cards becuase it needs a good block mod in hand. Yes, I'm not saying take it out (this deck is built wonderfully well to take advantage of it less pommel, less launcher, etc.), but I am saying in a 7hs character with a similar content and one that draws more efficiently, see relentless and weapon deck or all character deck with other draw cards, is ultimately more efficient becuase the chance of having the high+ block mod is better, more often = more efficient. (this is in effect self cancelling).

I don't think we disagree philosophy wise, and I think you have to agree that any character that has a 'respond after e commit: ability is played' and with a small benefit (i.e. using multiple times is what you aim for) is resource heavy. You can't use his ability without resources, this means he needs to first 'get resources down' and then 'use ability' this is a middle speed process, not a 'give' any attack +x damage that is a early speed process. Heiachi is fast, Hata is middle, a non-damage pump character is mid to long, nina/Rasho/etc. At least that is the way I classify them, and it is usually pretty accurate. Change things for handsize and efficient use of the ability and you have fast to slow. The reason you are finding your Hata fast, and attacking turn 2 doesn't mean he's fast it just means that is what he does with his attack/foundation ratio, is becuase you've built him with mostly pumping abilities and tossed in a very strong set of attacks. Your deck is well built is all, not clunky, so there is a smooth transition between build -> attack -> kill.

I'm not here to tell you to change things, I'm hoping to help you make the changes you feel might help you, and eventually squeeze the most effective Hata out that we can. I know you know that, but it never helps to reiterate - especially when we are spewing opinions back and forth at a very fast rate, and for everyone else to see ^^

- dut

when i built fire hata with the help of a friend i had Fury of the Ancients in my deck, mainly because with its enhance and hata's R and his E they all become 7 mid for 5. i know it is a little costly but it is a quite cool trick he can do

I really like your attack lineup and feel like it's really in a place to do good things.

The only differences I would consider are.

IP isn't really worth having in your sideboard, I would look into either Soul Wave(anti discard anti asset) or, for super techy tricks, Memories that stain it's armor. You can use said card to Destroy a torn hero(assuming the r on torn is being used) before it triggers, giving you some leeway with your pommel smashes/hope for one's peoples and possibly even your stun.

and you already talked about it, but I would really take a second look at For the Money. It checks a 5, it has a +3m which is great for Ultimate Team, and you are already running stunning allowing you to force it online pretty easily, it's CRAZY effect will free up other foundations to be commited for various effects, and since it doesn't require a commit, can be used to pass a check adn then be used for a commit effect. I dont know what I would take out, Mouse maybe, but in general I think the card is worth a second look because I feel like it can bring a lot to your deck.

Otherwise I like it, A lot of good ideas that make a lot of sense.

Hmm, I think I'll ad For The Money back in, I might have understimated it. I read it wrong, lol. That's what happens with only a week to prep.

Thanks for the responses dut and Jeremy, those are very helpful. I will change the deck a bit, I think I have to, but I will talk a bit more about it later.

You seem to not like the 4 checks, but i am a huge fan of Hungry for Battle.

Check a 3, commit 1 foundation for +4dmg +1spd...not too shabby

Yeah, I might try it, honestly though if I was going to maindeck a 4CC it would be MAC. It's a great card though, and was considered as I stated.

I did make some changes to the deck though; mostly necessitated by the fact that I won't be able to gurantee getting PTPs and Ultmate Teams. Since I want some extra control but don't want to lose too much offense, I've cut 3x From the Mouse, 3x PTP and 4x Ultimate Tean for 4x All Life Is Prey, 3x For The Money and 3x Intimidating Presence. This package works great, since they all fuel each other, and the best part of IP is that it can be used to pop something long since commited. This gives the deck more aggressive abilities, with lot of pressure on the opponent to somehow deal with my high speed attacks, or get stuff destroyed. If they do that, my ALIPs get better, and For The Money's out pumps them as well (still not sold on this as I said, but it's better than I thought and fits the changes extremely well). In addition, I added a 3 POTM, which is even better now with so many cards to force a +2 bonus - we all know that it's never that low anyway, but putting one of the Nightmare foundations in my card pool before a massive attack is kinda sweet.

Unless I do ge the PTPs and Ultimate Teams, this is probably my final build:

Starting Character - James Hata, 6HS 28V

Assets (6):

3x 2/5 Path Of The Master +2M
3x 2/5 Gianzende Nova and Frischer Himmel +2M

Attacks (18):

4x 5/3 Hammer Of the Gods +2H
4x 5/3 Knight Breaker +0H
4x 4/3 Midnight Launcher
3x 4/3 Neutron Bomb +2M
3x 3/3 Pommel Smash

Foundations (36):

4x 3/5 Enraged Golem
4x 2/5 Stand-Off +3M
4x 2/5 Financial Troubles
4x 2/5 All Life Is Prey +3L
3x 2/5 Best Friends +3H
3x 2/5 For The Money +3H
3x 2/5 In Search Of Plunder +3M
3x 2/5 Intimidating Presence
4x 1/5 Brooding +3H
4x 0/5 Hope For One's People +3H

Total: 60+1 cards

Sideboard (8):

3x 5/4 Soul Wave
4x 2/4 Martial Arts Champion
1x Pommel Smash

I would make it 4X FtM and 4X IP, just becuase these cards are better earlier in the game, so having them as equally likely draws at that point would make sense. Whether you turn your deck into 62 cards (not a travesty at all) or find 2 other cards that are more turn 3+ in use that can go down to 3X is up to you. All Life is Prey is a good candidate, granted there will only be lots of destroy after a couple turns, and it doesn't commit itself so having more than 1 copy out can get redundant...

Other than that, I think you've made some good changes. Obviously you've lost a lot of 'reactive' defense by dropping PtP and tUT, but since you couldn't get tUT you've salvaged the offensive strength of the deck while giving it more control (or proactive/offesnsive defense) in that the opponent loses resources when taking damage, making it a double whammy of sorts on their turn coming back at you if they have one.

I'd seriously consider getting PtP in the sideboard, but I can't fault it now, MAC and SW are very good choices in and of themselves. Worst case you can bulk up the deck, toss in the 4th pommel, the 4th of the 2 foundations mentioned above, and turn the sideboard into 2 X SW, 3 X MAC, 3 X PtP.

Just some thoughts. You are definately progressing along the curve that will find you the better build for your tourney though, best of luck ^^

- dut

dutpotd said:

I agree with For The Money, but not Intimidating Presence.

For the Money is one of the best early-game cards for it's symbols. Get it out first turn and it's ****-a-palooza.

Talking with Vik about this deck, he claims it is very fast and rarely ever goes past turn 3. If so, then I feel as if Intimidating Presence has no place in this deck. It's just going to prolong the game as both players would be destroying foundations. Hata is a character who is constantly going to be in your face; More of an aggressive style rather than control type. It just seems to me that this isn't the type of deck to run Intimidating Presence in.

Same with All Life is Prey. You do get a +1 +1 off Hata for the cost, but his other foundations are so much better than that. All Life is Prey really only chains well with Intimidating Presence, and since that card doesn't really fit with the aggressive style of this deck, then we can draw the conclusion that All Life is Prey doesn't have a place in this deck. It does however sport a much needed low block. Those slots are better off taken by cards that will constantly have a use.

VikramS said:

The +1/+1 is guaranteed too. How is making them blow up something a bad thing? Especially before stunning.

Considering how much damage Hata can do by himself, I don't see the point of Knight Breaker in the deck (don't kill me). Sure, it can come at them for 12 damage starting off but 1) it only happens when it Combos, 2) you only have 2 high attacks in Midnight Launcher and, well the Knight Breaker you're wanting to combo into and 3) he has a 6HS. If you want a 5/3 with a +0 block, you might as well call it Cleave.

Also... I have no idea if this is the general consensus, but Stun doesn't trigger Hata...

"2.14.2.8 Stun
Stun: X (Enhance) - E: Your opponent commits X of their foundations."

You're not committing their foundations. I don't know if that's what was making Hammer get to 15 damage, although with Hata/Brooding/Plunder/anything it's not too hard to anyways. But in that case, what would make Hammer better than others? Its damage pump, I guess?

I would consider, to deal with annoyances like Stand Off or anything else, Siren's Call. It's a hefty 6/2 4H8, but even after your pump, you can commit anything. Plus it's another high attack.

guitalex2008 said:

Knight Breaker isn't about damage... And yeah, pommel is also High, just thought I'd mention it... Knight Breaker is about drawing a card with path + destroying a foundation that has been stunned or comitted becuase it was used = control. The +0 'high' is also better in 75% of the cases than a +0 'mid'.

That is the general consensus on stun, I hope ^^ The pommel enhance can be responded to though.

Siren's Call is great w/ Hata, and before Knight Breaker. The difficulty of the attack is a mid game thing though, i.e. hitting a 3 to pass it sucks. It also only shares 1 symbol with Hata, and this is a path deck. Finally, you said it, the 2 check, he doesn't even like 4 checks?

I think the attack lineup is great as is btw. I think the deck has been watered down a bit by the IP and ALiP vs. Ultimate Team. And I think the deck has little or no defense against high speed attacks, something that PtP gave it, especially with the zone change to get full blocks.

- dut

I'm with shaneth on this, I don't think Intimidating has a place in this deck. I would just take them out for some mainboarded mac's.