Callidon said:

I also dislike point buy character gen, so some days ago I opened a post with some house rules for random character gen... Towards the middle of the long post, Bertolac proposed a very good idea that I now prefer to the one I originally proposed. I summarize it here:

Instead of randomly determining your stats, you randomly determine where to apply each advance. Bertolac suggested that your character starts with the initial characteristic values (depending on race and career). You then let each player roll 3 times a 1d6 (1=Strength, 2=Toughness, 3=Agility, 4=Intelligence, 5=Willpower, 6=Fellowship) and that's where the first 3 advances would have to be made, paying the corresponding cost. With the remaining creation points (usually 10-15) the player can decide how to spend them.

An alternative I thought to the above method is that you let the players decide to roll 1d6 so that the advance will be in the basic characteristics or 1d4 to have an advance in the "extra table" (wealth, skills, talents and actions). The player goes on doing this until he has 5 or less creation points, then he is allowed to use those last points as he wants.

Well written post, Callidon! I understand, and can appreciate, all your points, including your dislikes.

I do think a lot of the likes and dislikes are prone to individual (and group) dynamics. There are ways to attempt to minimize the dislikes, but those only go so far (and may not be worth it in some cases).

Well done, thanks!

Mal Reynolds said:

I would just take some time to adress this issue,. Although you yourself haven't ascribed this in any positive or negative way, some people have expressed a little too cynical views on the "moneymaking" issue. Some even hinting that FFG is just another profiteering and moneysucking corporation with no passion for making games what so ever.

Here it goes:

We all know that a company has to make some sort of profit if it wants to continue to stay in business, but I think that everyone should keep in mind that neither the RPG making business, nor the boardgame making business (which the 3rd edition have been claimed to be a hybrid of the two) are the proposed "mythical untapped markets" with huge profit potential which some people seem to believe.

Making these sort of games means catering to a niche market, that isn't very likely to expand that much at all. Most of the time smaller companies don't even profit from the game making at all, but is driven by people who are passionate about making games.

The point im trying to make here is that if your intention is to make ridiculous amounts of money, the RPG and boardgame businesses respectively are NOT the optimal ones to invest your time and money in. Everyone connected to these businesses knows this. The reason why most of these people stay with this business is because they enjoy what they do. Some even do it despite the profits not being able to support their daily lives.

Now on an individual level it might be easy to become cynical and just assume that every corporation is just a faceless giant out to get your money, but if it is faceless giants you want to cry about, then you really should steer your attention away from FFG.

It won't matter how many gimmicks and "profiteering stunts" they try to do with their products, the market for these products will not boom to such a level where executives can swim in cash. The boardgame and RPG markets are niche markets, and considering the fact that they have been around for quite some time they don't show signs of ever expanding in broader coverage of the general public.

So while the people behind these games do want to get paid for their work and want to reach some levels of profit in order for the company to survive, assuming that they are doing everything they can just to bleed their customers dry, while selling crappy and inferior products wouldn't be very realistic.

These people like games, just like we do. And whatever they decide to implement in their products will most likely be motivated by the sheer fact that they think it would be cool/fun, rather than to scam the customers out of their money...

Well said Varnias!

In responce to Varnias, well put!! there is a huge reason FFG has big price tags, the production quality on these games is top of the market hands down best games ive ever seen Parker brothers have nothing on FFG!

Varnias Tybalt,

perhpas someone pointed out that v3 has been put in the hand of someone that didn't like WFRP v1 or v2 in the first place, or the system would have retain more of the first two editions.
Sure you can't hide the "collectionist" approach of this new version, that could be even a good thing, but it's there.

Even more, when you do something for a living, even what you like can become ... just work.

Varnias, you make some good points.

While an eairler post also mentioned the sugested cap on stuff to 3 players (and a GM), that was due to FFG wanting to keep the price down on the game itself. I believed it was mentioned in the gen-con vids.

I have no doubt that they will be quality goods as FFG has shown us time and again that they do that kind of thing.

Overall though my hope is that the action card factor (or any other 'aids') doesnt go down the CCG path, and that they will release a 'light' version that doesn't include all the bits for those that just arent intrested in those.

DeathFromAbove said:

I really couldn't say how much the lead producer of WFRP v3 liked the old games or not. But that wasn't the issue I tried to adress either.

Many days I would assume that FFG writers and designers consider it to be "just work", but everyone does that even if you had the most awesome job in the world. The point I was trying to make here primarily regarded the motivations people have from getting involved in a particular business, and if you volontarily apply for a job in the RPG/boardgame market then making quick and large amounts of money are not likely to be a high priority (and if it is, you'd have to be somewhat delusional if you seriously believe that you could "make it big" in that kind of market)

Let's face it people. We are a customer demographic belonging to a pretty obscure market, and we are hardly the most numerous in the world. Even the desktop supply market is larger than the RPG/boardgame market, because most people will need pencils, erasers and paperclips in comparison to role playing games and boardgames.

And frankly I don't think that companies like FFG deserve this sort of flak, even if they make decisions that don't sit well with some gamers. Because at the very least most of these companies are still driven by passionate people. Compare that to the ever so cynical popular entertainment industry (making music, movies and videogames), now THOSE are certainly run by the faceless corporate giants whose only interest concern money and little else...

/pointless derail

"run by the faceless corporate giants " ~ Varnias Tybalt

I do hope there are stats for a Faceless Corporate Giant in the core release of v3 or I may never convert from v2!

/back to my dark corner

Callidon said:

Maybe.

I seem to recall a Games Workshop release of a new giant mini. It sort of looks like the current plastic giant, but it has a blank face where you can glue on corporate logos like "Sony".

They also have a special set of rules to them. For instance they have hatred against pirates, but they take severe damage from all sources containing modern technology (in warhammer terms this means handguns, cannons etc.).

They also possess this special mechanic in a battle where they can choose to omit all the wounds they cause on another unit and convert these into victory points, representing all the money they steal from all the "hardworking folk" of the old world.

For a +10 upgrade, the faceless corporate giants may be accompanied by a unit of corrupt "lawyers and lobbyists", which will double all victory points scored by the giant when it takes money from enemy units.

I have played 2ed and the mmo I love the story. What I have to say is ffg is very good at making rpg and board games very well. What they give you is they main book broken up into the major 4 parts of a book. It just how they layed it out it feels better and well done. i love the cards but not the dice it gets booged down.

Sorry aboout the double post i cant find the edit button??? So where was i ffg is bad for making other than the norm size game cards eg the big world of warcraft game. it had a ton of little cards which hurt. But on the other hand why did they have to do a adventure kit after it before it even came out. was it just left over stuff that wasnt ready for the main box?

mcdead said:

Cost reasons. The core is already $100, to add the stuff in the Adventure kit would bring the price up to $140 (if I read what Jay said right).

I assume some people will be fine with the core game and wait forever before buying the adventure kit, and there will be people who get both right away. What's crucial is keeping the core at the $100 price.

I'm also going to assume that at some point, all the different parts in the core set will become separate items for purchase. They've managed to do it with Descent and a few other games, so I'm assuming after the game has had time to sell at premium price, we'll see this.

I'd also like to remind everyone that Games Workshop still has a giant say in what WHFR v3 is, contains and becomes. So FFG is working off a model approved by GW and most likely already started by GW before BI went under. So it's not entirely FFG's fault that another version of WHFR is coming out and it's vastly different than the previous two incarnations.

McClaud said:

thats a very good point, i dont think a lot of those against this game realize that. its a good thing to bring up for sure, might shed some light on the dark side

Farin said:

True, but GW has always had final say on their intellectual property, so it's nothing new with v3. They will obviously monitor anything that runs tangential to the war game but as far as mechanics for the roleplaying game they leave that in FFG's hands. I think we can attribute any artwork, race information, geography, and other setting changes as having been heavily scrutinized by GW (hence the rollback on the SoC and more super-hero feel for iconic classes). As for the game mechanics I think that largely lands on Jay n' the Gang's shoulders.

I seem to vacilate daily on how I feel about v3 but today finds me in a hopeful mood. I just need to get my eyes on the rules, a heavily dissected analysis of the game gear provided in the set and a game play demo video. I could also be bought, so if Jay feels like sending me a gift certificate to the FFG store covering the cost of the core set I'd probably swoon into the rabid fanboy v3 club...hey everyone has their price I'm just cheap!

McClaud said:

GW's influence was probably pretty minimal. Other than making sure that FFG don't do anything to hurt the licence (like declaring that all High Elves have been turned into catgirls) they woulda taken a hands off aproach. If FFG wanted to keep producing v2 material they would have let them. FFG definitely weren't working on a model started by BI - the BI guys were only just considering the next edition when they were closed down.

no matter what FFG has to run EVERYTHING by GW for legal reasons so im sure GW saw everything and ok'd it. i never said they played a BIG role but the have been aware of al lthe changes and the game system so if GW is cool with it it must be good.....GW nows a good game lol *looks are all teh Warhammer fantasy battle game minis*......yeah they know if something will sell

macd21 said:

Now how would that "hurt" the license?

I'd love to see the High Elves be replaced by a bunch of sassy SPANC's

I could be completely mistaken, but I seem to recall Jay either posting (or was it in the seminar video) where he was talking about the initial creation of 3e and he said GW wanted a new version and big changes. Jay and FFG designed the new changes, and GW was excited about them, but the initial impetus for such a dramatic change stemmed from GW. I could be totally misremembering, though. I'll need to look around and see if I can find what it is I'm thinking of.

dvang said:

If only GW would really have the balls themselves to rewrite the wargames rules completly also....

KjetilKverndokken said:

Why? WFB is a very solid game

Mal Reynolds said:

Sitting in the meeting rooms of our local library in Aalborg, Denmark, Scandinavia. I played some elven soldier in WFRP 1st ed. I didn't no st'. about RPGing and it just came to me as the most natural thing; that of course you had characteristics, skill and trappings you could use and improve. And of course you got better Exp rating after the session if you role played your character right. We had a super GM (Kenneth Madsen aka MADman) who really played the GM role perfectly if you fd' up you got in trouble, no intimidation of the local militia without severe consequences etc. That was great stuff!

And after all I think Jay owes us a session demo video

phobiandarkmoon said:

Not really. One big issue with WFB is game balance between the available armylists. The way the rules work now they seem to favor heavy magic usage and armies with lot's of shooting units. If you play any army that are somewhat lacking in both the magic and shooting department (like Ogre Kingdoms) you tend to get slaughtered every time you go up against a moderately competent general.

There are some serious issues that needs to be adressed in WFB, if GW actually want each army to be playable...

phobiandarkmoon said:

Each edition is only minor changes, and stuff the most people on every forum about warhammer (if we just take fantasy) wants to change (Halberd rules I look at you) never do.

Thats why system like Warmachine/Hordes from privateer press among others are growing like bushfire. I enjojed the GW miniature games before, but they, really never ever listen to fans. Privateer actually gave out the rules for the next edition (wich is a real revamp of the system) so players could go through it and give reviews on it. And the final rules have not from where I have been, been complained at. Spartan games have a fluid rules fix if there are an outcry to fix something. It takes GW 6 months + to give an errata, and then its worse then the original rules.

I love the thought of the miniature games of fantasy and 40k, but the rules are giving me headaches - so far as my whole gaming community are making a total rules change for ourselves.

But it is a matter of taste - but I still think that a new edition needs to be more then remove a couple of small rules, and add a few small ones - a player test base would be the soulution to have the best there is, but sadly GW has very little control anymore as the people with the money controles them instead and have chased away the best people that worked in GW, who have themselves started other firms thats very succsessful.

I love the Games Workshop created Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 universe. Fantasy Flight games is really good at turning what used to be ownable games into collectible games ... and while I do own many good FFG products ... I avoid many like the plague. When GW announced they'd made an agreement with FFG a few years back I had mixed feelings. FFG is really good about getting high quality products out to market and with GW anything beyond their core mini games is sporadic (all the specialist games are like that) in terms of release. Its just not their focus and that's cool ... as a fan of the mini games I'm very happy they do such a good job with them. I have to say that FFG has done a wonderful job with the Dark Heresy line and don't seem to have any pending plans to destroy that game so that is awesome .. thank you very much FFG!! FFG also was doing a good job keeping the WHFB stuff out in print, I will also say thank you to FFG for a reasonable heads up that the game system was going to be revamped. Also good job in giving a preview of the game, letting fans know what there is to expect, etc. that is fair and I can't say enough good things about that decision.

My personal opinion is that everything I've heard and read about the new game is that it very much in the spirit of 4E ... it is going to be a dumbed down ... board game-esq system. That will be great for new players and people who don't play or know the current system. From a money making standpoint I completely understand that decision. That said the original Black Library/Green Ronin system is great ... it doesn't need to be fixed or revamped ... all of the gamers who love the GW universe ... but also like a gritty dark more sophisticated RPG system are now going to have to settle for a dumbed down board game whether we like it or not. I will likely not buy the new system until long after its release (if ever) what I will likely do is try to complete the collection of all the current edition WHFB publications and just run that if I want to do a WHFB game, or use another companies game and use the GW WHFB universe as my setting ... there are endless materials out there to be used for that. So really it saddens me that FFG didn't try to find a way to perhaps keep the current game in print ... and maybe do something outside of the box ... like doing a "basic" version of the game. TSR did that back in the day and I think for awhile it worked well (though I can't say for certain) ... I do know that I was introduced to RPGs via the Red Box basic edition of D&D and cherish those memories. It is too bad that FFG can't do that in this case. I would bet that they'd probably move just as much product ... and probably more. They won't though as they have their market data and business strategy all lined up.