Hello everyone, I've been a long time reader of the forums here, but this is my first time posting.

I love how FFG is trying to balance munitions in waves 7 and 8, but I don't think it will completely solve the problem. Munitions obviously have a handicap to start with when compared to other upgrade types. They have a high points cost and a high opportunity cost for a one-time effect that might never happen. I don't think the solution is just to make them more efficient (although it certainly helps). They SHOULD be different, and for that reason, I want them to have a unique advantage: list flexibility.

A player would dedicate a number of points in his or her list to a munitions loadout. Rather that buying proton torpedoes and 2 seismic charges, a player would assign 8 points to the list's loadout. Upon meeting an opponent and seeing his or her list, the player can then bring whatever ordinance work best. Facing a fat turret? Bring along your homing missiles. See a swarm coming? Don't forget your assault missiles at home. Think you might be able to make APT work against a list? We might actually see one. Most of the list archetypes we face now are popular because their counters are too specific to be applied to a broad field. THIS is the role munitions should fill!

This would REALLY shake up the meta. The safe choices that dominate would be fair game. I'm not sure if this would create a skew towards munitions, but I think the balance between the efficiency of normal upgrades versus the flexibility of munitions could be a great dynamic in the game.

OP: Interesting, but way to complicated. Plus FFG fixes them with card and upgrads.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take acquire a target lock on an enemy within range.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

OP: Interesting, but way to complicated. Plus FFG fixes them with card and upgrads.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

Thanks for your feedback!

I don't see how it is so complicated. All you do is put aside a number of points (on each ship), then fill them as you please before the game. FFG has made changes to tournament rules before in this way when they made obstacles part of the list building. It doesn't have to be a part of the core game for beginners. It's a simple fix that doesn't require any printing. By using upgrade cards to improve munitions, you make those upgrades required. While that mod might help, it restricts what else you can put on the ship. A simple fix ideally shouldn't block off an upgrade type just so the fixed item can work.

How about just not counting ordnance in the point cost for MOV purposes?

the problem with ordnance is largely being answered by specific pilots/ships

in the case of Wave 7 we have N'dru (glitterstim + CM = fun times) Redline...and that's it really EM helps, but it does not alleviate ordnance's horrible action inefficiency. What Wave 7 is, largely, is the bomb wave

But Wave 8 is freaking promising. There's a mod upgrade in the inquisitor tie that apparently deals specifically with torps and missiles, and there's the jumpmaster (pogostick) which is just begging to be turned into a torp boat (even the generic has an ept for deadeye, one torp slot for a torp and one for extra munis, and then R4 aggromech to turn the focus you have to spend into a TL to modify the attack with; add Recon to also have a focus for a fully modified attack)

if the Inquistor Tie's mod does what people think it does (free focus modifiers for ordnance), then you're going to start seeing some 5-dice homing missiles being spat out by Miranda

oh, and also Tracer rounds will be a thing (also from inquisitor tie). sweet!

OP: Interesting, but way to complicated. Plus FFG fixes them with card and upgrads.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

For 1 or 2 points (depending on whether you have missiles or torpedoes) you have an upgrade that is arguably better than Fire Control System and available on many more ships. It doesn't let you target lock if you are stressed but it doesn't restrict you to getting a lock on a ship that you just fired on. As long as he had torpedo, Dutch would be able to provide a TL for himself and a buddy at the end of every round which would allow them to focus as their action. Also, because it is an action it is something that PTL could be chained off of (I'm not sure what would be awesome to do with an action at the end of the round but there might be something).

I think a munitions sideboard would be a great idea. The ship on your list becomes "Scimitar Squad w/6 points of ordnance" instead of "Scimitar w/Extra Munitions and Cluster Missiles" or "Scimitar w/Extra Munitions, Seismic Charge, and Flechette Torpedoes". Even if you choose not to equip the full amount of points in a ship's ordnance sideboard the points still count towards its total. "Scimitar Squad w/6 points of ordnance" is a 22 point ship even if you choose to only put a single Proton Bomb on it.

That's an administrative change that would allow the flexibility of ordnance to be a strength in a tournament without requiring any mechanics changes.

I think a munitions sideboard would be a great idea. The ship on your list becomes "Scimitar Squad w/6 points of ordnance" instead of "Scimitar w/Extra Munitions and Cluster Missiles" or "Scimitar w/Extra Munitions, Seismic Charge, and Flechette Torpedoes". Even if you choose not to equip the full amount of points in a ship's ordnance sideboard the points still count towards its total. "Scimitar Squad w/6 points of ordnance" is a 22 point ship even if you choose to only put a single Proton Bomb on it.

That's an administrative change that would allow the flexibility of ordnance to be a strength in a tournament without requiring any mechanics changes.

That's exactly what I was thinking of... you just happened to say it a lot better.

It works perfectly theme-wise as well. Ordnance are easily swapped out before a big skirmish.

The problems with most of the munitions fixes i've seen is that if Munitions were a good value you would have super alpha strike lists as a dominant force- something like 7 Zs with missiles just blowing the hell out of someone really fast.

I would say that munitions would have been better implemented if they did not consume focus/TL just to fire. The cost should simply be discarding the card.

Instead, treat your munition as a secondary weapon (like a cannon) that can only be fired once. Look at upgrades like Hotshot Blaster. It's essentially a munition, but one that sees far more play than others. It's a one-off situational attack with an additional effect.

OP: Interesting, but way to complicated. Plus FFG fixes them with card and upgrads.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

That problem is solved by Thread Tracers. Tested it yesterday with three Cluster AC TIE advanced x1s and a TIE bomber with EM and Thread Tracers.

In addition to discarding the munition card and spending the target lock to fire, the target lock should still give you a reroll ability. Maybe not all the dice can be rerolled, but something like predator where you still reroll 1 or 2 dice for your one time munition shot.

In addition to discarding the munition card and spending the target lock to fire, the target lock should still give you a reroll ability. Maybe not all the dice can be rerolled, but something like predator where you still reroll 1 or 2 dice for your one time munition shot.

Still doesn't stop the fundamental problem with munitions, which is the cumulative cost:

1) Cost of the munitions itself

2) Opportunity cost of taking munitions instead of another constant upgrade effect, or worse, another ship (given enough munitions)

3) Cost of losing the ship bearing munitions before they are fired = wasted points

4) Cost of missing with munitions and losing the card - or cost of equipping failsafe upgrade to prevent this, which doesn't help bombs (mines are special because they still provide the benefit of board control)

5) Cost of actions to set up a munitions attack (focus, TL)

6) Cost of performing an attack without the ability to modify dice

All these drawbacks just to enable your ship to use a different attack on a target, once.

PS: A lot of these overlap, but they're all things that I consider annoying about munitions as they are.

OP: Interesting, but way to complicated. Plus FFG fixes them with card and upgrads.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

Not bad - but I'd change it to acquire a target lock rather than perform a TL Action - more flexible and less prone to PTL / EI abuse

In addition to discarding the munition card and spending the target lock to fire, the target lock should still give you a reroll ability. Maybe not all the dice can be rerolled, but something like predator where you still reroll 1 or 2 dice for your one time munition shot.

Still doesn't stop the fundamental problem with munitions, which is the cumulative cost:

1) Cost of the munitions itself

2) Opportunity cost of taking munitions instead of another constant upgrade effect, or worse, another ship (given enough munitions)

3) Cost of losing the ship bearing munitions before they are fired = wasted points

4) Cost of missing with munitions and losing the card - or cost of equipping failsafe upgrade to prevent this, which doesn't help bombs (mines are special because they still provide the benefit of board control)

5) Cost of actions to set up a munitions attack (focus, TL)

6) Cost of performing an attack without the ability to modify dice

All these drawbacks just to enable your ship to use a different attack on a target, once.

PS: A lot of these overlap, but they're all things that I consider annoying about munitions as they are.

Trust me, I agree with all of those things. I've been toying around with the idea of having "munitions points". Instead of playing a 100 point game, play a 110 or 120 point game. However, those extra 10-20 points can ONLY be spent on munitions. Modifications like Munitions Failsafe and such still come out of the 100 point pool. That way, you're not sacrificing a ship in your squad for munitions.

I'm not saying it's a great idea (yet), but I was going to propose it to my group for homebrew testing. I love the idea of missiles and torpedoes (Episode IV), but when the cost is so prohibitive you're deciding between munitions and another ship, the other ship is probably going to win.

In addition to discarding the munition card and spending the target lock to fire, the target lock should still give you a reroll ability. Maybe not all the dice can be rerolled, but something like predator where you still reroll 1 or 2 dice for your one time munition shot.

Still doesn't stop the fundamental problem with munitions, which is the cumulative cost:

1) Cost of the munitions itself

2) Opportunity cost of taking munitions instead of another constant upgrade effect, or worse, another ship (given enough munitions)

3) Cost of losing the ship bearing munitions before they are fired = wasted points

4) Cost of missing with munitions and losing the card - or cost of equipping failsafe upgrade to prevent this, which doesn't help bombs (mines are special because they still provide the benefit of board control)

5) Cost of actions to set up a munitions attack (focus, TL)

6) Cost of performing an attack without the ability to modify dice

All these drawbacks just to enable your ship to use a different attack on a target, once.

PS: A lot of these overlap, but they're all things that I consider annoying about munitions as they are.

Trust me, I agree with all of those things. I've been toying around with the idea of having "munitions points". Instead of playing a 100 point game, play a 110 or 120 point game. However, those extra 10-20 points can ONLY be spent on munitions. Modifications like Munitions Failsafe and such still come out of the 100 point pool. That way, you're not sacrificing a ship in your squad for munitions.

I'm not saying it's a great idea (yet), but I was going to propose it to my group for homebrew testing. I love the idea of missiles and torpedoes (Episode IV), but when the cost is so prohibitive you're deciding between munitions and another ship, the other ship is probably going to win.

The problem I see with that is that most top lists (that don't need any help) would end up getting 10-20 extra points to add ordnance as well. We really don't need Brobots to pick up a free proton bomb each, Dash and Corran to get Proton Rockets and an Advanced Proton Torpedo, or Fat Han with S-Thread Tracers and his trio of Z-95s with Ion Pulse Missiles.

The problem I see with that is that most top lists (that don't need any help) would end up getting 10-20 extra points to add ordnance as well. We really don't need Brobots to pick up a free proton bomb each, Dash and Corran to get Proton Rockets and an Advanced Proton Torpedo, or Fat Han with S-Thread Tracers and his trio of Z-95s with Ion Pulse Missiles.

I've thought of that, too. It's surely a conundrum. I'm willing to bet the designers have already tried every idea we've come up with, and more. And yet, there's still no "fix". Perhaps, there never will be. Probably, local groups will come up with homebrew rules, but on the tournament scene, things will remain how they are.

Sometimes it seems people think munitions are broken because they can't roll five red dice with a TL and focus every time they fire off a missile. I think munitions were designed to be more like green dice: great when they work, but a big gamble. The uncertainty adds excitement to a casual game, but it's also why you don't see many munitions in tournaments.

As for the original poster's idea, I get it, you don't want to load up Assault Missiles and find you're facing a 2-ship list, or have Cluster Missiles facing high-agility targets. But I think this kind of decision making during squad building is also part of the game. We often have to ask ourselves, "PTL or Predator?" Or "Advanced Sensors or FCS?" Deciding what ordnance to add is part of that.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

Uh, no. By taking Flechette torps (2 points) and never firing them, B-wings no longer have to choose between AS and FCS, they effectively get both. Y-wings would get yet another buff (Kavil with Unhinged instead of Agromech, but still having TL. Yikes). Although I admit I like what it would do to X-wings. (Rookie Pilot+R7 Astro+mod+Flechette torps) X4.

OP: Interesting, but way to complicated. Plus FFG fixes them with card and upgrads.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

For 1 or 2 points (depending on whether you have missiles or torpedoes) you have an upgrade that is arguably better than Fire Control System and available on many more ships. It doesn't let you target lock if you are stressed but it doesn't restrict you to getting a lock on a ship that you just fired on. As long as he had torpedo, Dutch would be able to provide a TL for himself and a buddy at the end of every round which would allow them to focus as their action. Also, because it is an action it is something that PTL could be chained off of (I'm not sure what would be awesome to do with an action at the end of the round but there might be something).

Well then don't make it an action. Just allow the ship to gain a target lock at the end of the turn if it has a Torp or Missile equipped.

As for other yes it's powerful, but since you have to buy a missile or torp and it takes up a modification it really helps those low PS guys who don't get to use their mods or missile and torp slots.

Sometimes it seems people think munitions are broken because they can't roll five red dice with a TL and focus every time they fire off a missile. I think munitions were designed to be more like green dice: great when they work, but a big gamble. The uncertainty adds excitement to a casual game, but it's also why you don't see many munitions in tournaments.

As for the original poster's idea, I get it, you don't want to load up Assault Missiles and find you're facing a 2-ship list, or have Cluster Missiles facing high-agility targets. But I think this kind of decision making during squad building is also part of the game. We often have to ask ourselves, "PTL or Predator?" Or "Advanced Sensors or FCS?" Deciding what ordnance to add is part of that.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

Uh, no. By taking Flechette torps (2 points) and never firing them, B-wings no longer have to choose between AS and FCS, they effectively get both. Y-wings would get yet another buff (Kavil with Unhinged instead of Agromech, but still having TL. Yikes). Although I admit I like what it would do to X-wings. (Rookie Pilot+R7 Astro+mod+Flechette torps) X4.

But then you are spending 2 points for no reason. The other options is just say the target lock is for ordnance only. And place and Id marker on top of the target lock which links to the ship that has the mod. this way they can only be used for ordnance.

Sometimes it seems people think munitions are broken because they can't roll five red dice with a TL and focus every time they fire off a missile. I think munitions were designed to be more like green dice: great when they work, but a big gamble. The uncertainty adds excitement to a casual game, but it's also why you don't see many munitions in tournaments.

As for the original poster's idea, I get it, you don't want to load up Assault Missiles and find you're facing a 2-ship list, or have Cluster Missiles facing high-agility targets. But I think this kind of decision making during squad building is also part of the game. We often have to ask ourselves, "PTL or Predator?" Or "Advanced Sensors or FCS?" Deciding what ordnance to add is part of that.

The simplest fix:

Modification

0 Points

As long as you have ordnance (missiles or torps) equipped. At the end of the turn take a free target lock action.

Now lower PS pilots can get target locks, and use them.

Uh, no. By taking Flechette torps (2 points) and never firing them, B-wings no longer have to choose between AS and FCS, they effectively get both. Y-wings would get yet another buff (Kavil with Unhinged instead of Agromech, but still having TL. Yikes). Although I admit I like what it would do to X-wings. (Rookie Pilot+R7 Astro+mod+Flechette torps) X4.

But then you are spending 2 points for no reason. The other options is just say the target lock is for ordnance only. And place and Id marker on top of the target lock which links to the ship that has the mod. this way they can only be used for ordnance.

2 points is a fine price to pay for achieving a target lock at the end of every round without requiring an action. With the wording, it would work while stressed too. You can then use it during the combat phase and boom, another TL set up for the next combat phase. Ordnance-only target lock is messy, how would you tell visually without some unique tokens? There are too many tokens as it is.

I changed it to aquire lock instead of take a free action.

Were stealing the OP's thread here.

So I'm not commenting anymore on this here. Perhaps I could open a new topic for it later.