So you all paid $5 to play and now it is an Official Tournament. So you placed your asteroids with great care and your ships came next. Then the dials were set and the Official Tournament game began.

So here is what is really going on from the not at the table standpoint.

Two people are PLAYING with little "very cool" plastic space ships. You are PLAYING with toys. No one is going to die. You are not going to gain wealth beyond your wildest dreams if you win.

For either person to get angry for any reason makes no sense. The expectations of winning some odd bit of acrylic or card made for a bad experience. It was bad enough in fact that you went home and had to post a rant so other people could soothe your nerves.

Was the $5 well spent?

1.) I'm not a hypocrite. If I'm denied a forgotten trigger I don't get angry at my opponent. That's what this thread is about, getting angry at your opponent for them not allowing you to do something they don't have to allow you to do. I don't oppose allowing players to request the performance of a forgotten ability.

2.) I put militant in scare quotes for a reason, I knew someone would make a fuss about it. Surely you understand its meaning in context.

1.) I'm not a hypocrite. If I'm denied a forgotten trigger I don't get angry at my opponent. That's what this thread is about, getting angry at your opponent for them not allowing you to do something they don't have to allow you to do. I don't oppose allowing players to request the performance of a forgotten ability.

Sorry if I misunderstood. Your thread title is "being shamed into allowing your opponent to perform forgotten card abilities", which is exactly what you admit to doing as well. Your opponent shouldn't have gotten angry, that's a given. But if he's seen you do the same thing that he's doing and your opponents allow it, but you don't allow your opponent to do it, well... You can see the hypocrisy there.

You don't want to give take backs, but want to be given take backs. That is being hypocritical. That you don't have a fit about it doesn't change that. It is still quite shady behavior.

From my own experience as a more or less new player, I will say that remembering actions and card effects is difficult. Today I am much better at those things, but when I first started my local gaming groupwas always helpful and lenient. This is one of the reasons I play with them. Likewise, I always help newcomers by pointing out their mistakes but letting them go back, even in the few store championships I took part. I don't think I have seen anyone being a jerk about anything yet, but if that time comes I think I would be perfectly happy not to play that person again.

Generally, I don't see someone as being a militant casual until they start attacking another person's character. It's an extreme.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct."

One of my favorite lines in anything ever.

Since the template was down, I would probably say something like "because you layed the template, you missed the Adv Sensors timing window".

But only because the template was placed and additional information about the game state was provided that might help him choose his action.

Now, if a dial is revealed and no templates are down, I still think using Advanced Sensors is okay. The movement of revealing a dial is not that big of a deal, and can easily be chalked up to an accident. Placing the template and moving a ship clearly states the ship has moved passed the game phase where Advanced Sensors allows an action.

If it was for prizes, I would certainly enforce this.

If it was just a practice match to see how well a list does, etc etc, then heck yah, I'd let him have the action. I'd rather know how well the list performs when all the right choices are made against it.

So I had an interesting moment in a casual game at my lgs last night. I had just shot with one of my ships and had gotten one of my opponents ships down to 1 hull. I had another ship shooting next who could have easily gotten the kill. But I somehow had a mental brain fart and was thinking I could kill him next round and shoot someone else. My opponent never questioned what I did. I didn't realize my error until it was time for the crippled ship's turn to shoot me.

I know if it was reversed I would have been like "are you sure you don't want to finish off my ship before he shoots?" But my opponent was apparently glad of my mistake since he never said anything.

So I had an interesting moment in a casual game at my lgs last night. I had just shot with one of my ships and had gotten one of my opponents ships down to 1 hull. I had another ship shooting next who could have easily gotten the kill. But I somehow had a mental brain fart and was thinking I could kill him next round and shoot someone else. My opponent never questioned what I did. I didn't realize my error until it was time for the crippled ship's turn to shoot me.

I know if it was reversed I would have been like "are you sure you don't want to finish off my ship before he shoots?" But my opponent was apparently glad of my mistake since he never said anything.

That's not a mistake that's a choice a poor one but still that's your bad not his.

If he didn't distract you or actively try to change your mind he's not at fault in any way.

And unless your telepathic it's disingenuous to presume you know his thoughts were malicious in nature.

So I had an interesting moment in a casual game at my lgs last night. I had just shot with one of my ships and had gotten one of my opponents ships down to 1 hull. I had another ship shooting next who could have easily gotten the kill. But I somehow had a mental brain fart and was thinking I could kill him next round and shoot someone else. My opponent never questioned what I did. I didn't realize my error until it was time for the crippled ship's turn to shoot me.

I know if it was reversed I would have been like "are you sure you don't want to finish off my ship before he shoots?" But my opponent was apparently glad of my mistake since he never said anything.

No mistake in there but rather terrible planning. It sounds to me like you did your maneuvers, actions, and took your shots. Not shooting at the "right" ships is a purely strategic error. That is an actual mistake instead of being procedural mistake and THAT is what should be the determining factor in a game.

An example of a 'mistake' could be shooting at an undamaged Fel instead of finishing off a wounded TIE Fighter except when that mistake turns into one of those amazing one shot kills on the Ace which would have been total overkill on the damaged Fighter.

Would you also expect your opponent to help you select your maneuvers before you set your dials?

Would you also expect your opponent to help you select your maneuvers before you set your dials?

...am I not supposed to be doing that?

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it. When I'm denied the ability to perform forgotten triggers I see it as a fault in my memory and not the fault of my opponent for not being lenient.

While he is wrong for being upset at you for following the rules, it is perfectly reasonable why people get upset. X-Wing takes time to play and most people have limited time to pursue leisure activities. I play about once or twice a week and have seen games swing because of a missed opportunity. Winning is part of the game, but I play for the experience. Just like I don't like showing up and playing any of the players at my store who don't make a serious effort to win, I prefer not to have a game end because someone forgot to assign an evade to their ship.

IMO it comes down to just basic sense and manners. Yes it's a tournament and thus you're playing to win, but it's a local tournament and if you want a good healthy game group it's best not scare people away with rule lawyering. If someone makes a mistake that is just common sense(like your given example), or gains them no true tactical advantage over if they just did it in the first place, then IMO you should allow it without to much fuss.

For example a game I had with my buddy I messed up on my firing order due to forgeting the pilot skill on one of my guys. If I did it in the correct order my first ship would of stripped his shields and the second ship would of scored a crit, he decided to argue that sense I messed up the order I didn't get the crit. I argued that both my ships had no other possible targets or abilities that would change the outcome of my decision so he should just let me get the crit, I let him have his way. Later in the game, for this reason, I may of neglected to mention that if he damaged me with his Ruthlessness equiped ship that it would take the last hitpoint off his arc dodger that had a clear shot on the hind quarters of my other ship. After this little incident I think it may of left a bitter taste as he forfeited the game.

The point is we all make little innocent mistake and should be forgiven them, it is after all a game for fun, even with the competitive aspect.

For example a game I had with my buddy I messed up on my firing order due to forgeting the pilot skill on one of my guys. If I did it in the correct order my first ship would of stripped his shields and the second ship would of scored a crit, he decided to argue that sense I messed up the order I didn't get the crit. I argued that both my ships had no other possible targets or abilities that would change the outcome of my decision so he should just let me get the crit, I let him have his way. Later in the game, for this reason, I may of neglected to mention that if he damaged me with his Ruthlessness equiped ship that it would take the last hitpoint off his arc dodger that had a clear shot on the hind quarters of my other ship. After this little incident I think it may of left a bitter taste as he forfeited the game.

If I follow correctly:

• You have two ships, one of higher pilot skill and one of lower pilot skill.
• You mess up the order and attack with lower pilot skill first. It deals a critical hit that is cancelled by shields.
• You attack with the higher pilot skill ship. It deals normal damage.
• You notice the error, declare that the ships would have dealt damage in the other order and that the attacked ship should receive a critical hit.

If that's correct, by the rules what actually happens is you can't attack with the higher skilled ship at all. Furthermore, asking for two ships to have dealt damage in the opposite order to your direct and significant benefit isn't "basic sense and manners", it's asking for a major concession from the other player.

Welp as I said both my ships had no other options of attack, I made a simple mistake that caused me to fire out of order. Following basic logic if I remembered the rules correctly I would of picked the exact same move, as once again, it was my only one.

The difference is between a clerical error and a tactical error. Ones a simple misunderstanding, the others the primary part of the game. I'm not arguing if you're technically correct or not. I'm arguing for the spirit of the game and having fun. Punishing people over such small mistakes is gonna breed ill will and drive some players away from you, I'd personally rather have more opponents. If you're the type to stick rigidly to the letter then the spirit then that's fine, just don't be surprised if people take it badly, as I find it a bad way to play from both angles.

I'm not the type to force the opponent rigidly to the letter, but I'd draw the line at retroactively reordering attacks to apply more critical results. I'd have just rerolled those two attacks.

I did offer that as a option. It was vs a Deci with no agi dice and considering my roll wasn't that great crit or no he refused that option. Like I said i didn't force the issue, i just was a bit spiteful when it came time to remind him of his own ability

I follow, I just don't think there was much cause for spite given the letter of the rules would be to prevent one of your attacks entirely. He wasn't exactly giving no quarter.

I paid money to play? HAH nope (respectfully of course), sorry bub, that even goes for league nights (acrylic tokens are on the line after all ) But if I'm there with a dinky build just looking for a good time? I can let some stuff slide

IMO it comes down to just basic sense and manners. Yes it's a tournament and thus you're playing to win, but it's a local tournament and if you want a good healthy game group it's best not scare people away with rule lawyering. If someone makes a mistake that is just common sense(like your given example), or gains them no true tactical advantage over if they just did it in the first place, then IMO you should allow it without to much fuss.

For example a game I had with my buddy I messed up on my firing order due to forgeting the pilot skill on one of my guys. If I did it in the correct order my first ship would of stripped his shields and the second ship would of scored a crit, he decided to argue that sense I messed up the order I didn't get the crit. I argued that both my ships had no other possible targets or abilities that would change the outcome of my decision so he should just let me get the crit, I let him have his way. Later in the game, for this reason, I may of neglected to mention that if he damaged me with his Ruthlessness equiped ship that it would take the last hitpoint off his arc dodger that had a clear shot on the hind quarters of my other ship. After this little incident I think it may of left a bitter taste as he forfeited the game.

The point is we all make little innocent mistake and should be forgiven them, it is after all a game for fun, even with the competitive aspect.

I've played against the OP, and I've found him to be a good player, who knows his business. I've played in the same $5 buy in tourney before, and the guys I've played against we're really cool.

I think it would be inappropriate to allow the advanced sensors thing, mostly because that's the whole point of advanced sensors. If it came down to it, I would have gotten out TO in to make a ruling.

IMO it comes down to just basic sense and manners. Yes it's a tournament and thus you're playing to win, but it's a local tournament and if you want a good healthy game group it's best not scare people away with rule lawyering. If someone makes a mistake that is just common sense(like your given example), or gains them no true tactical advantage over if they just did it in the first place, then IMO you should allow it without to much fuss.

For example a game I had with my buddy I messed up on my firing order due to forgeting the pilot skill on one of my guys. If I did it in the correct order my first ship would of stripped his shields and the second ship would of scored a crit, he decided to argue that sense I messed up the order I didn't get the crit. I argued that both my ships had no other possible targets or abilities that would change the outcome of my decision so he should just let me get the crit, I let him have his way. Later in the game, for this reason, I may of neglected to mention that if he damaged me with his Ruthlessness equiped ship that it would take the last hitpoint off his arc dodger that had a clear shot on the hind quarters of my other ship. After this little incident I think it may of left a bitter taste as he forfeited the game.

The point is we all make little innocent mistake and should be forgiven them, it is after all a game for fun, even with the competitive aspect.

To be fair getting crits on ships does give you a big advantage. Honestly the best thing for you to do would have been to just accept the game state as it was but it sounded like you really wanted that critical on the decimator. Crits especially on a decimator can give you a tactical advantage. You honestly sound a little hypocritical.

Easy there buddy, if you read it you know that's exactly what I did anyway. The mistake was noticed right away, it's not like I attempted to argue this when the ship was sitting on its last few hitpoints. I also suggested we just replay the action so I wouldn't just automatically get the crit. The point was that it was a order of operation mistake caused by me forgeting the PS of someone I never used before, being a simple mistake I just wanted to either play it out the way it would of went if done right, or just start the action over and reroll. I didn't up and throw a tantrum about it. I just played it the same way he did by letting him go ahead and make the mistake of forgetting he had Ruthlessness.

Not exactly how I care to play as it wasn't truly a tactical mistake, he would of never took the shot if he remembered. I was just trying to make the point then and now that if it wasn't a tactical error you should just forgive it. If the situation was reversed and my mistake caused me to unfairly gain a crit, I would of of done the same and asked for a reroll or to do it in the proper order.

I've played against the OP, and I've found him to be a good player, who knows his business. I've played in the same $5 buy in tourney before, and the guys I've played against we're really cool.

I think it would be inappropriate to allow the advanced sensors thing, mostly because that's the whole point of advanced sensors. If it came down to it, I would have gotten out TO in to make a ruling.

And the TO would HAVE to agree with you here.... no argument there. The argument is SHOULD you allow an opponent to "take back" or "fix" a move/action.

I've already weighed in on some of the reasons you may or may not...

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184465-the-militant-casual-and-being-shamed-into-allowing-your-opponent-to-perform-forgotten-card-abilities/page-2#entry1725424