I've been umm'ing and aah'ing about posting on here for the three days it's taken me to skim through 12 pages of comments... First observation about the OP is that this is one side of the story, and doesn't really talk too much about the atmospherics of the conversation. Both allowing, and not allowing the T/L could be 'Play Casual' depending on the way that is communicated. Similarly either decision could be communicated in a way which would mark you as a ****. Other people have said something similar already, but it's not the decision being made, it's how you talk to and treat your opponent.

I believe it was the saintly Rick Priestly (he was a big cheese at GW for a loooong time, but don't hold that against him) that said any game is a social contract between the competitors that everyone will have fun. That's why we play games. Of course we want to win, and how much that's important to you will vary, but if one or either of the players goes away with a cloud over their head, then both of them share some responsibility for it not being enjoyable.

Personally I never ask for take backsies, but will offer them if I think it was a brain fart. I would like to think the same would be offered to me, but I certainly wouldn't mind if it wasn't.

Oh, and I also think it was a bit cheeky asking to shoot your ship out of sequence when you made such a big deal of the missed AS action.

said any game is a social contract between the competitors that everyone will have fun. That's why we play games. Of course we want to win, and how much that's important to you will vary, but if one or either of the players goes away with a cloud over their head, then both of them share some responsibility for it not being enjoyable.

I agree with this completely.

If going back to my example, if I'm sitting at a table and someone sits down to play with me. If I see they're not trying very hard I may tone my game down a bit, but I'm still going to play to win. I also think they are equally responsible to step up their game and perhaps we'll meet somewhere in the middle.

If they can't be bothered to do that, then I feel no guilt about stomping on them, and if they get upset that I was too competitive, that's on them. This of course assumes I'm not being a jerk or something, and contrary to some peoples opinion you can in fact play to win and not be a jerk about it.

the good players don't forget things like that.

That's complete BS. I've played against some of the best players in the world, and everybody occasionally forgets stuff like that. Everybody.

Asking, "Why should someone make someone feel bad for just enforcing all of the rules?" is the game-play equivalent of asking, "Why should someone hate pre-crisis bank executives for doing stuff that was completely legal?" If someone has to ask, they're probably not capable of understanding the reason, but the reason is actually very simple:

"Legality and ******-baggery are not mutually exclusive."

Do that in Netrunner and you'll lose the game.

I'll give an inch if someone says "Set" and then changes their mind. That's fine. But screwing up timing that has been placed in the game's structure specifically for gameplay and balance? Nah.

the good players don't forget things like that.

That's complete BS. I've played against some of the best players in the world, and everybody occasionally forgets stuff like that. Everybody.

Asking, "Why should someone make someone feel bad for just enforcing all of the rules?" is the game-play equivalent of asking, "Why should someone hate pre-crisis bank executives for doing stuff that was completely legal?" If someone has to ask, they're probably not capable of understanding the reason, but the reason is actually very simple:

"Legality and ******-baggery are not mutually exclusive."

Yeah I seem to remember a certain match between two of x-wing's best competitive players were one missed placing his cloak token, but it was okay because his opponent was a reasonable person.

Human memory is a fallible thing that can fail for a number of reasons at any given time,it's why we don't rely on eye witness reports to convict people of crimes because after even a short period your memories can change from what you saw to what you think you saw.

To claim great players never forget anything is laughable.

In my opinion, people are missing one vital point here; Forgetting things is part of the game.

In any tactical combat sport, game, or otherwise, the POINT of the game is pitting two or more opposing players against one another, testing their skills, both tactical and strategic, under pressure.

Ask anyone who competes in any meaningful level of martial arts and they'll tell you; quite often the person who loses is the person who makes the first mistake. Capitalizing on the mistakes of your opponent is a characteristic of a skilled fighter. Being so focused on one part of the field that you neglect to take advantage of your abilities constitutes a tactical failure on your part, and is a legitimate move in game terms. You have failed the test of situational awareness, or allowed yourself to be distracted, and it both will and SHOULD bite you in the a**.

In a casual, relaxed, or learning environment, these mistakes are taken as learning opportunities, and since the outcome of a casual match is almost certainly totally benign, allowing retractions would seem to be both allowable and considerate.

In a competitive environment, these mistakes are PART OF THE MATCH.

Now, obviously, a tabletop game is not totally analogous to a combat sport, but the spirit of competition between them is. With that in mind, innocuous mistakes that don't affect the gameplay in any meaningful way can easily be let slide, but mistakes that have a measurable impact on the outcome of the game are very much a part of the game itself.

Obviously, this will vary based on each individual and how they want to allow/disallow their opponent's requests, but the fact remains that whining and complaining because someone expects you to adhere to the rules is in poor taste under even the most relaxed circumstances.

These kinds of issues will haunt X-Wing its entire existence. They rules leave it up to the players to enforce the rules or not to. So this will never go away. FFG is the only one who can end these debates by deliberately and expressively writing out the timing and the cause of lost actions.

For years now there have been many debates with this same subject matter. I've always come down on side ofthe don't give any actions away. If I recognize its a newer player I don't let them forget an action. Once they move the ship I will often ask" what action are you taking?". This helps maintain the state of the game according to the rules while helping the newer players get the repetition of move then action. I've never had an argument at a table over lost actions.

I truly and honestly believe the rules of the game should be once the timing for a trigger has past there is no way to recover the "may" abilities in the game. It should be the responsibility of both players to make sure the "must" happen actions like Rebel Captive take place.

The game is growing and the numbers for tournamets keeps getting higher. This means the compedativness of the players will rise aswell. We should help maintain a Casual environment to help nurture the game we all love, however this dose not mean ignore the rules.

In real time you may miss a window to do something but when doing turn based things, which is the type of game X-Wing is, you have the time to see all of your options before each move.

Which means there's no excuse for not taking the time to consider all your options before you do something.

To an extent. The player also has to be courteous and keep play moving along in a timed match. Yes it is their fault, but the argument I was making wasn't them making a poor decision, it was them missing "the perform action step". If you didn't think things through and took a TL instead of Focus, oh well, but someone missing a part of the rules entirely is something I personally like to remind them of.

AGAIN, you are not obligated to remind them and it IS their fault, but I PERSONALLY prefer to remind them if they forgot the action step as I feel the action step being used period is more a rule thing than a x-wing player skill thing.

"Legality and ******-baggery are not mutually exclusive."

Sure, but being a jerk and playing to win, or playing by the rules is also not mutually exclusive. You can play by the rules, and play to win, and still fly casual.

but I PERSONALLY prefer to remind them if they forgot the action step

I think most people would do the same. If someone simply skips over their action step completely I'll be inclined to ask them if they want to take an action before moving on to the next step.

Although I'm likely to only do that a couple times, unless it's a teaching game.

And on that note I think I'm done with this thread, because it once again is little more then the same people making the same arguments all over again.

So I'll say once again... If you want to allow people to take a missed opportunity, that's up to you. The situation is normally going to determine how often or if at all that should happen.

But not letting someone do that. Playing by the rules as written and playing to win does not automatically make you a jerk or a poor sport. Which is something some people seem to believe.

I can play to win, not just because I want to win, but because I enjoy the competition and still fly casual, because once again, Fly Casual is about the attitude you have.

Playing by the rules as written and playing to win does not automatically make you a jerk or a poor sport.

Yeah, those things are three independent axes. You can play narrowly by the rules, or you can prefer a game that's a bit more loose. You can play to win, or you can play for the experience. You can be a jerk at the table, or you can be kind. And none of those things places limits on the others.

(And Fly Casual is exclusively about the last axis.)

Sure, but being a jerk and playing to win, or playing by the rules is also not mutually exclusive. You can play by the rules, and play to win, and still fly casual.

Of course, but it's also possible to "play by the rules," "play to win," be completely casual and civil about it, and it still be reasonable for the other player to think you're a jerk.

Just for one example (the "you" is non-specific):

You forget to take an action. You move another ships. Your opponent asks if you want to take an action for the first ship. You say, "Yes, thanks much." (Please nobody post about how cool you are, and how bad-ass, because you'd decline. We all get it: you're cool and bad-ass.)

Two turns later:

He forgets to take an action. He moves another ship. He asks if he can take the action for the first ship. You say, quite politely, "No, you've missed the opportunity."

You're polite, you're playing by the rules ...

... and you're still a jerk. And he's quite justified in thinking that about you.

Many people reading this will already be searching for ways to rationalize the behavior, formulating differences between the two missed opportunities in their heads. That's just how some people are.

If I recognize its a newer player I don't let them forget an action. Once they move the ship I will often ask" what action are you taking?". This helps maintain the state of the game according to the rules while helping the newer players get the repetition of move then action. I've never had an argument at a table over lost actions.

Great post, particularly this part.

I use this same approach and it heads off a great many issues that could be experiencedone as well as helps your opponent learn the game.

An inexperienced opponent is likely going to make enough mistakes such as land on asteroids, bump into their own ships, choose the wrong action, spread shots to multiple ships, etc. that you don't need any additional help from them missing an action.

If my opponent is inexperienced and reveals a red maneuver and forgets to trigger AS first I'm probably going to stop them before they move their ship and inquire if they intended to take their action first. Sure that technically is beyond the timing window but it's really not a big deal. They are new and learning. That kind of thing helps.

You're polite, you're playing by the rules ...

... and you're still a jerk. And he's quite justified in thinking that about you.

I'd agree, and even go a step further and say you're a bit of a hypocrite if you take them up on that offer, but refuse to let them do the same.

See myself I don't ask to fix a missed opportunity, and wouldn't accept one if offered. I'd also go as far to say that anyone who does while they may be civil, still does not have a good attitude. But what you're suggesting is also not IME typical. If anything it's the other way around, people are more likely to refuse to take a missed opportunity, but offer them, then the reverse.

I'll also point out that it's completely possible for someone to play RAW, and do so consistently not offering or accepting a 'fix' do so while being completely civil and still have the other person think he is a jerk. Although at that point, the issue isn't with the RAW player it's with the other one

I think if your not trying to make the game enjoyable for both parties then your the jerk we are not clones we don't all share the same likes and dislikes.

The social aspect is very important and by failing to accommodate the other person while demanding they play the way you prefer your being a jerk, there is a middle ground to be found but if your not even willing to try then your not a person ill enjoy playing with.

It's a game prizes or no the first priority should be fun for everyone.

For all it counts, I run on an "everybody gets one" system at competitive events. The first time my opponent misses any trigger, I will remind them and allow a do-over. If there are any further missed triggers, I have already reminded them once and anything else is on their head.

I'm staying out of this one. The line that separates reminding someone of what they have and babysitting someone else's build for them is very thin. There's too many variables to list when assessing your opponent's mental state and abilities.

If they can't be bothered to do that, then I feel no guilt about stomping on them

That says a lot about you.

That says a lot about you.

Thank you, by taking my comment out of context for no purpose other then a personal attack, you not only prove what I and others have said about how a casual can do as much damage to the enjoyment of both players as any WAAC...

You made exactly the kind of post that will get reported to the mods. You also remind me why I should of left you on my ignore list.

I would have probably just told buddy; "Sorry, but this is a tournament." Upon his getting angry at me; "I would be more than happy to discuss this further with you outside of the tournament, if that's how you want to go about it." After that, I would only speak to him if it pertained to the advancement of the game. Of course it all depends on the situation and who's involved.

I think this has officially become the new worst thread ever.

Let's celebrate!!!!

said any game is a social contract between the competitors that everyone will have fun. That's why we play games. Of course we want to win, and how much that's important to you will vary, but if one or either of the players goes away with a cloud over their head, then both of them share some responsibility for it not being enjoyable.

I agree with this completely.If going back to my example, if I'm sitting at a table and someone sits down to play with me. If I see they're not trying very hard I may tone my game down a bit, but I'm still going to play to win. I also think they are equally responsible to step up their game and perhaps we'll meet somewhere in the middle.If they can't be bothered to do that, then I feel no guilt about stomping on them, and if they get upset that I was too competitive, that's on them. This of course assumes I'm not being a jerk or something, and contrary to some peoples opinion you can in fact play to win and not be a jerk about it.

Okay, I'm putting my two cents in. I'm sorry that I can't cut a paste sections of this quote. Vandor you mention players "stepping up their game" and "if they can't be bothered to do that" you feel no guilt about stomping them. The question I ask of you is this: how do you know they're not bringing their 'A' game? What standard are you measuring their performance against? I would rather play against someone that needs a reminder of what he brought than the jackass militant you mentioned in the original post. There are so many things that can affect a person's play they would fill a text book. The guy who plays an acceptable game over pizza and pop may not do so well at a tourney at the FLGS. I'm not implying you should dumb down your game but give the guy the benefit of doubt. There's an old chess quote that says some players don't think a move strong enough unless it's heard in the next room. Don't become the militant "by the book" player. The operative word there being 'militant'.

That's more than two cents. I think competition will weed out those players that shouldn't be in competitions, either by elimination or being DQ'd.

I know I said I was done with this thread, but another thing happened. I faced a Soontir Deci with my 8 Academies today. I vaporized the Deci, only losing 2 TIEs in the process. I realized then that I was up on points and decided to run with my whole swarm. My opponent stressed Soontir and forgot to assign a focus, and I did not allow my opponent to put one down because she had already rolled for attack. Even if I lost the TIE had she properly remembered to focus I still would have won.

After the game was over I was told in a rather angry tone, "At least I have the courtesy to joust at the end". To this I said something like, "Well, that's what the turret players do, get up on points and run for the whole game." She walked away for a minute, and when she came back she said something like, "You complain about Turretwing yet you play like it." I just smiled the whole time. No Schadenfreude-esque Emperor quote though, forgot until after the exchange.

I ordered a T-shirt that says, "Keep calm and fly casual" with a silhouette of a Lambda on it, can't wait for it to get here.

I think this has officially become the new worst thread ever.

Let's celebrate!!!!

Nah, whenever it comes up about "casual" vs WAAC, it will generally go 10+ pages over what it really needs to be. Humans, amirite?

This same type of thread will happen again. Soon.

I know I said I was done with this thread, but another thing happened. I faced a Soontir Deci with my 8 Academies today. I vaporized the Deci, only losing 2 TIEs in the process. I realized then that I was up on points and decided to run with my whole swarm. My opponent stressed Soontir and forgot to assign a focus, and I did not allow my opponent to put one down because she had already rolled for attack. Even if I lost the TIE had she properly remembered to focus I still would have won.

After the game was over I was told in a rather angry tone, "At least I have the courtesy to joust at the end". To this I said something like, "Well, that's what the turret players do, get up on points and run for the whole game." She walked away for a minute, and when she came back she said something like, "You complain about Turretwing yet you play like it." I just smiled the whole time. No Schadenfreude-esque Emperor quote though, forgot until after the exchange.

I ordered a T-shirt that says, "Keep calm and fly casual" with a silhouette of a Lambda on it, can't wait for it to get here.

Makin' friends one tournament at a time! lol