Everyone makes mistakes and part of a competitive game is taking advantage of the other persons mistakes.

I agree with this. The only thing I would note is that (for me personally) I don't feel forgetting an action or pilot ability is something I want to take advantage of. If it were a video game or had a referee who could watch the whole game from start to finish, these wouldn't happen, so I'll usually remind people. I like to win because I outflew or built a better list, not on memory errors. However, maneuvering errors, action errors, or target choice errors, I'll let you make those all day.

That being said, in a tournament, go right ahead and take advantage of any error. Not only is your opponent not obligated to assist you, the rulebook is pretty clear on the missed opportunity rules.

Honestly during tournament games I am too busy with not forgetting my own pilots and cards abilities and keeping in mind my right (sequence of) action choices that I cannot keep up reminding also my opponent of his stuff if she forgets something or mixes up his/her sequence.

This is too much a luxury one would expect me to offer.

Alright here is my take.

1. No one can make you feel bad or shame or guilt except for you. Especially in a situation where the stakes are so low as an X-Wing game. The stakes are so low in this case, that none of these emotions would factor into any of my decision making.

2. The rules are very clear on what is allowed in this case, he can ask, you can deny or allow.

3. The rules are so clear, that I would have no issue with a TO being called over, since I know a TO will say that "yeah he can deny the missed opportunity."

4. That being said, I would let him use Advanced Sensors in this situation. I might deny him the opportunity if he denied me a similar opportunity earlier, depending on circumstances. At any rate, I am not obligated to let him take a missed opportunity, neither is my opponent.

5. I think its reasonable for someone to tell me that they think I am being unfair; I prefer it to the alternative.

6. And finally what the forums thinks in this situation is irrelevant and not useful. The only thing that matters is the local groups take on the matter (and really just you and the other player). You should be discussing with them, preferably with the individual in question, or if you need a sounding board to talk this out with, someone who knows both of you and the situation at hand.

not on memory errors...

A ref is not going to remind someone of something optional, nor would a video game. If I'm playing a video game and forget that I have a health potion, the game isn't going to flash a reminder up on the screen.

I see your point based on the health potion part, but in turn based games (that's the closest to x-wing), the game reminds you that you need to take actions and then offers them up on screen, so that's more-so what I was referring to.

But as I said, just because I'm usually one to remind someone they forgot an action doesn't mean I'll ever expect that favor to be returned or given to other players.

Alright here is my take.

1. No one can make you feel bad or shame or guilt except for you. Especially in a situation where the stakes are so low as an X-Wing game. The stakes are so low in this case, that none of these emotions would factor into any of my decision making.

2. The rules are very clear on what is allowed in this case, he can ask, you can deny or allow.

3. The rules are so clear, that I would have no issue with a TO being called over, since I know a TO will say that "yeah he can deny the missed opportunity."

4. That being said, I would let him use Advanced Sensors in this situation. I might deny him the opportunity if he denied me a similar opportunity earlier, depending on circumstances. At any rate, I am not obligated to let him take a missed opportunity, neither is my opponent.

5. I think its reasonable for someone to tell me that they think I am being unfair; I prefer it to the alternative.

6. And finally what the forums thinks in this situation is irrelevant and not useful. The only thing that matters is the local groups take on the matter (and really just you and the other player). You should be discussing with them, preferably with the individual in question, or if you need a sounding board to talk this out with, someone who knows both of you and the situation at hand.

About point 1. I don't think you really understand shame or guilt. Those are sometimes internal feelings, but the evidence of people who suffer emotional abuse clearly shows that those emotional responses can originate from other people. I have been poorly treated by an opponent at a tournament, and it is %100 acceptable for someone to claim that they have been made to feel shame or guilt from an aggressive or angry opponent. Stakes do not come into play, it's about the way your opponent treats you.

Everyone has rehashed the legalities of the play here. Nobody is disagreeing about the advanced sensors ruling or about the OP's right to deny a missed opportunity. Literally nobody has said anything new for a while. So I think that we can probably stop reiterating our take on things, it's been enough I think.

However, the point that many are missing is that it's not a one sided situation. Regardless how your opponent behaves, and whether you disagree with their play or with their behaviour, it is the responsibility of each of us to treat our opponents with respect. I don't think our OP was treated with respect, based on his accounting. Hopefully this 11 page silliness has given each of us an opportunity to self examine, and we can all go on to our next tourney with a desire to play fair, have fun, and be respectful.

Jacob

Alright here is my take.

1. No one can make you feel bad or shame or guilt except for you. Especially in a situation where the stakes are so low as an X-Wing game. The stakes are so low in this case, that none of these emotions would factor into any of my decision making.

2. The rules are very clear on what is allowed in this case, he can ask, you can deny or allow.

3. The rules are so clear, that I would have no issue with a TO being called over, since I know a TO will say that "yeah he can deny the missed opportunity."

4. That being said, I would let him use Advanced Sensors in this situation. I might deny him the opportunity if he denied me a similar opportunity earlier, depending on circumstances. At any rate, I am not obligated to let him take a missed opportunity, neither is my opponent.

5. I think its reasonable for someone to tell me that they think I am being unfair; I prefer it to the alternative.

6. And finally what the forums thinks in this situation is irrelevant and not useful. The only thing that matters is the local groups take on the matter (and really just you and the other player). You should be discussing with them, preferably with the individual in question, or if you need a sounding board to talk this out with, someone who knows both of you and the situation at hand.

About point 1. I don't think you really understand shame or guilt. Those are sometimes internal feelings, but the evidence of people who suffer emotional abuse clearly shows that those emotional responses can originate from other people. I have been poorly treated by an opponent at a tournament, and it is %100 acceptable for someone to claim that they have been made to feel shame or guilt from an aggressive or angry opponent. Stakes do not come into play, it's about the way your opponent treats you.

Everyone has rehashed the legalities of the play here. Nobody is disagreeing about the advanced sensors ruling or about the OP's right to deny a missed opportunity. Literally nobody has said anything new for a while. So I think that we can probably stop reiterating our take on things, it's been enough I think.

However, the point that many are missing is that it's not a one sided situation. Regardless how your opponent behaves, and whether you disagree with their play or with their behaviour, it is the responsibility of each of us to treat our opponents with respect. I don't think our OP was treated with respect, based on his accounting. Hopefully this 11 page silliness has given each of us an opportunity to self examine, and we can all go on to our next tourney with a desire to play fair, have fun, and be respectful.

Jacob

I swear I'm going to bring my GoPro to tournaments from here forward and record matches. This is getting so blown out of proportion it's ridiculous. There was no disrespect. There was some emotion... in a competitive game. It happens. If at the end of a game the two people can shake hands and be adults about it then no harm no foul. There was no scuffle. There was no yelling. There was a comment made about the situation at hand. If the OP was uncomfortable by the comment he could have called the TO over. He did NOT have to allow the move out of guilt/shame/voodoomagic/whatever. That was HIS decision. It was also HIS decision to ask for a favor when he forgot to attack with a ship, which in the end makes this whole thread so stupid it makes my head hurt. The fact that this thread even exists shows the immaturity of the OP in the end. Instead if ranting and calling someone a 'militant' casual (with or without the f'ing scare quotes), talk to the player and say "what you said during our game made me uncomfortable" and hash it out from there. We are all adults... the OP's opponent and myself are 40ish, I think we can handle a discussion about table etiquette.

Again, like I previously posted, other than this thread, I have absolutely no problem with the OP. Hell, I even agree that he was in the right to be honest. It's the cyber-whining that cheeses me off.

And the hypocrisy.

I created this thread to discuss 'fly casual' with the community, not as an attack on Patrick. There are often discussions about these sort of things and I used the situation I was in as an example. If everyone involved is going to find the discussion and get pissed that I talked about it after the fact maybe I'll just cause a scene at the event AND online then.

How many times are we going to have to go over the word militant? Obviously the person didn't physically harm me, I get it. Context.

I'm not a hypocrite. I would not have gotten snarky if I wasn't allowed to fire with my BSP.

I think this dead horse has been beaten so badly that the ASPCA is on its way.

I've said my piece and you have said yours. You are obviously not ever going to see how this whole thread and your actions were just as childish as someone being "snarky" during a match. We'll just agree to disagree I guess. Look forward to beating you next time we play

edit: for the record, my friend doesn't come on here, and I don't think I'm going to tell him about this thread just to save face between you two if you both get seated together again. I'm cool like that.

I think this dead horse has been beaten so badly that the ASPCA is on its way.

Lol. I've said all I wanted to say and reiterated it multiple times so even I'm getting tired of it. From now on I'm going full on no forgotten triggers and not going to hesitate to call TOs over either, even if my opponent grants me a forgotten trigger first. Fly Dark Side.

Lol morbid you must be new here, whining is sort of Para's thing here. Just mention Dash and see where things go lol.

Lol morbid you must be new here, whining is sort of Para's thing here. Just mention Dash and see where things go lol.

New to here and somewhat new to the game and tournament setting all together. Hoping this is an anomaly and not the norm. lol

The only thing that really matters is how seriously someone takes it, the fact that it involves plastic space ships doesn't really matter.

No, there's a bit more to it than that.

It's possible for players to take this game too seriously. Some of the people on this thread are taking the game too seriously.

But surely you can see that not everyone feels the same way? Maybe you could be a bit accommodating if the situation allows it? Players don't have to be all cut-throat, all the time.

I created this thread to discuss 'fly casual' with the community, not as an attack on Patrick.

The topic post is quite clearly an attack on your opponent. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise with a straight face.

I'm not a hypocrite.

"I'm not a hypocrite at all, people. What you don't understand is that one situation was a rules exception that would have benefited my opponent, and the other was a rules exception that benefited me. Those are totally different circumstances!"

...

A ref is not going to remind someone of something optional, nor would a video game. If I'm playing a video game and forget that I have a health potion, the game isn't going to flash a reminder up on the screen.

...

The fully integrated video game version of X-Wing WOULD remind you every time you have a trigger and list the options you have available at that trigger including passing on a trigger.

It would not restrict you setting your maneuvers because there are no restrictions there although you could set a red while stressed if you wanted to or deliberately fly off the board. When you have a chance to take an action that would instantly show up and should show the available activity. If you make an attack you'll be asked to pick your target; when it's time to modify your attack you'd be shown the options you have available.

Your video game may not remind you that you have a health potion but it also MAY point out that you are low on health and remind you of options to heal yourself. Some games may even automatically consume such resources when required. Another something to consider is the real time vs. turn based implications. In real time you may miss a window to do something but when doing turn based things, which is the type of game X-Wing is, you have the time to see all of your options before each move.

Both parties are at fault. This thread is beating a Looooong Dead Horse.

If you cant or wont follow the rules in tournament scenario deal with the consequences (All this BS). Have fun.

End thread.

Alright here is my take.

1. No one can make you feel bad or shame or guilt except for you. Especially in a situation where the stakes are so low as an X-Wing game. The stakes are so low in this case, that none of these emotions would factor into any of my decision making.

2. The rules are very clear on what is allowed in this case, he can ask, you can deny or allow.

3. The rules are so clear, that I would have no issue with a TO being called over, since I know a TO will say that "yeah he can deny the missed opportunity."

4. That being said, I would let him use Advanced Sensors in this situation. I might deny him the opportunity if he denied me a similar opportunity earlier, depending on circumstances. At any rate, I am not obligated to let him take a missed opportunity, neither is my opponent.

5. I think its reasonable for someone to tell me that they think I am being unfair; I prefer it to the alternative.

6. And finally what the forums thinks in this situation is irrelevant and not useful. The only thing that matters is the local groups take on the matter (and really just you and the other player). You should be discussing with them, preferably with the individual in question, or if you need a sounding board to talk this out with, someone who knows both of you and the situation at hand.

About point 1. I don't think you really understand shame or guilt. Those are sometimes internal feelings, but the evidence of people who suffer emotional abuse clearly shows that those emotional responses can originate from other people. I have been poorly treated by an opponent at a tournament, and it is %100 acceptable for someone to claim that they have been made to feel shame or guilt from an aggressive or angry opponent. Stakes do not come into play, it's about the way your opponent treats you.

Jacob

See I look at if differently.

When I am in Manhattan and someone hits me up for a dollar on the street and points out that I have nice shoes, he is trying to evoke an emotion of guilt so that I will give him a dollar. I don't feel guilty or shamed in that situation, even when he is actively trying to provoke that emotion. I am allowed to give the guy a dollar or not give the dollar, depending on what I want to do. I also don't blame the guy for doing it as I am sure it is overall an effective tactic and hey he could probably use the dollar. Now I could blame the guy or I could feel guilty or I could get angry, but I choose not to. This isn't all that different from the above situation.

Now if I am in a situation where I thoughtlessly wrong another (say I say something hurtful in anger or spill soup on someone or knock over a small plastic ship when trying to move it), I will feel guilt or shame and I would agree with you that its not really my choice to do so. But thats not really the situation described. People can manipulate a person with feelings of guilt or shame, even if its not their intention and its up to the individual to manage their response to that. (I don't really believe the OPs opponent was trying to manipulate the OP, I think he was just being honest that he felt he was being treated unfairly, if a little to insistent).

Stakes always comes into play in social interactions. If someone is hurt on the street and asking for help, that is a very different request than someone asking for a dollar and deserves a different response. The issue with X-Wing tournies is that the stakes never get higher than win/lose or have a good time/have a slightly less good time and thats never a high level of stakes.

A person needs to own their emotions and more importantly their reaction to those emotions. Just my take and all.

I guess i'm too nice a player but i generally don't let people forget things, whether it's that Predator is 2 rerolls when shooting at PS 2 or lower, or K4 gives you a free TL on greens, or FCS . I even remind ppl when they are rushing and forget to take an action. And this is even in tournaments.

*slowly backs away from thread*

Abort, abort!

It's possible for players to take this game too seriously.

Which is exactly what I said. The only thing that matters is how serious someone takes it. That quite naturally would include some taking it too seriously. The fact that it's plastic spaceships doesn't change anything however.

Maybe you could be a bit accommodating if the situation allows it?

Why should I? Why is it up to me to change my preference and play down, rather then the other person stepping it up and playing more competitively?

I for the most part simply avoid playing with anyone who "plays for the lulz" because neither of us is likely to have an enjoyable experience.

But I find it interesting that it's constantly those who like to play competitively who are supposed to change how they play and never the other people.

The fully integrated video game version of X-Wing WOULD remind you every time you have a trigger and list the options you have available at that trigger including passing on a trigger.

Then I hope such a thing is never created.

In real time you may miss a window to do something but when doing turn based things, which is the type of game X-Wing is, you have the time to see all of your options before each move.

Which means there's no excuse for not taking the time to consider all your options before you do something.

Last night I set the dial for Jake to a 5 K turn, and when I went to move him I realized he was stressed. I knew he was stressed, because I used PtL on him the turn before. I screwed up simply because I wasn't paying attention and didn't take a second look at Jakes before I set his maneuver.

It was a purely boneheaded move on my part. I didn't feel even a tiny bit angry when the other guy sent him on a hard 3 turn away from the battle. I never once expected him to set my dial to the move I should of made.

He took advantage of my mistake, a mistake I made simply because I didn't bother to double check if Jake had a stress or not, even though I knew something was wrong with my choice.

BTW I lost that fight, and deserved to do so. If the other guy forgave my mistake and I went on to win it would of made it a tainted victory at best.

When people ask me for take backs even politely and say they don't care either way I know that they clearly want the take back otherwise they wouldn't have asked. They may not want it so bad where they'll flip the table if they don't get there way but they still want it. Now you're tainting the game and putting unwanted pressure on the player.

When you sat down to play the game, were you unaware that the opponent wanted to win, and wanted you to lose?

How is the knowledge that they'd like to correct their mistake tainting the game more than the fundamental knowledge that they'd like to win it?

Does the knowledge that other people want things really impact you THAT much? I know people want things. That knowledge by itself doesn't unfairly influence my ability to make decisions any moreso than the knowledge that your opponent wants to win makes you intentionally lose (it doesn't).

I generally show up to X-Wing tournaments, especially ones with people I'm unfamiliar with, armed. Not only is it thematic, but it also helps settle disputes and make games inexplicably swing in my favor. Occasionally, when I encounter an opponent who's gaming philosophy is so different than mine, to the point that the future of X-Wing is in danger, I become thankful I was prepared.

....And now I'm on a watch list. But who isn't these days

Maybe you could be a bit accommodating if the situation allows it?

Why should I?

Because some people might think it's nice.

Because some people might think it's nice.

And some people may think it's nice for the other person to step up their game. The question is, why should it be me who has to change my preference?

If I'm sitting at a table in the LGS and someone sits down and asks for a game, why should I change how I play to suit the other person? Is his method of playing somehow superior or the default method and I'm not playing the game as intended?

Isn't as equally up to the other person to be nice? Because the clear implication of your post is, that those of use who play competitively are doing it wrong, and unless we're in an environment in which such things are accepted such as tournaments, we shouldn't actually expect anyone to actually take the game seriously and try to play to win.