It's a sad day when we get to the point we can't ask questions, feel free to give the answer we want/believe to be true, and have that be accepted with respect.

Here is the rule of thumb on take backs and oh I forgot.

1) if it has not yet made a difference to the game, then go ahead and let him add a token. Why needlessly argue? For example a guy moves an Academy TIE, and forgets to declare and action, then moves 4 more ships and then says, "Oh ya, I forgot to give this TIE a focus, do you mind?" Where is the problem in letting him have it? Doesn't change the game.

2) if the omission is remembered at a crucial point then I object. For instance, forgetting to recloak Whisper and remembering to do it after having activated Soontir Fel is fine. Forgetting to recloak Whisper and when he is getting shot say, "Oh ya, he attacked a target and I forgot to recloak, do you mind?" I would say it is a little late.

I don't understand the need of some people to win at all costs. Will it make your life that much more satisfying to have beaten someone because they forgot something? You dont know whats going on in their minds, they could be playing Xwing to take their mind off other worries, like dying relatives, losing a job, etc.

If you want to feel good about a win, beat someone at their best, not when they make an innocent omission.

Naturally this is all null and void if they do not return the same courtesy to you.

Wow.. this got out of had quick. The player in question is my best friend and I was also at this tournament.

A few things:

1. Is he a new player? We have been playing since around February of this year. While he is not "new" to the brobots, advances sensors on them was a change to the build we made that very night so yes, it was new to him.
2. Did he make a mistake? Yes. He revealed his dial and laid down the template. By rules he should not have been allowed to use the sensors. Up until this match, things have been SUPER casual at this stores local tournaments. Most people would not have balked at his mistake and let him adjust. He was thrown off by the denial and responded with a "wow... so you want to play like that... ok." I don't see how that comment is "militant" at all, and out of frusteration I would have said the same.
3. You had every chance to call Eric (the TO) over to make a call, but instead allowed it. The fact you then came on here to whine question the play is a bit ridiculous. If it bothered you that much during the game then an official should have been called over.
4. The target lock he placed didn't even come into play after all was said and done. I will agree his comment after that was not called for.
5. When you forgot to attack with one of your ships, he allowed you to do so.
6. Thinking all was well at the end of the night and as a token of No Hard Feelings he traded you the nice x-wing bag for the crappy beat up tie fighter one. If you were going to come on here and complain, next time be a man and don't accept the gift.
7. We talked for like 30 minutes in the parking lot about both this issue and other things we enjoyed about the game. How are you so upset still that you had to make this post?!?

When all is said and done, shame on both of you I guess. Patrick for believing that "Fly Casual" meant just that in a $5 tourney, and you for being a child and making this post.

PS: I still think it was BS I couldn't hit a single one of your TIE's that night. lol
no hard feelings man, just calling it as I see it. Hope to see you out there again for a rematch.

Here's my outlook. First, I mainly play x wing for tournaments. My stores do tournaments every other week plus I go to all the near by store championships, regionals, gencon, and worlds. I love competitive x wing. Most of the players in my area are always playing as tournament practice. That said in tournaments and tournament practice we fly as close to perfect as we can, we take our medicine like grown ups, and we don't ask for take backs.

We expect each other to know the rules and be able to keep up to date with them. When new rules and faqs come out we talk about them and help each other get to know them better.

We try to be as clean as possible playing. We try to avoid needless bumping of ships and obstacles. We use crit tokens to remember crits. We put our fingers on the bases and templates to be as accurate as possible and try to do all of this in as little time as possible.

When doing tournaments or tournament practice we capitalize on our mistakes and remind them about it afterwards with some good laughs. Just last night a guy with predator kept forgetting he could reroll 2 dice against ps2 ships. Now some us will give the other person 1 reminder just as a courtesy but we neither expect it nor feel entitled to it. If we do red maneuvers while stressed we expect our ships to be flown right off the board and laugh about it. At worlds last year I flew a guys ship off the board and didnt feel bad at all, i drove 11 hours so im playing by the rules lol. We hold each other to a high standard of play and we don't take things personally. In anything competitive it is natural to capitalize on mistakes. We take our medicine like grown ups and suck it up.

Also and this is a big one, we do not ask for take backs! Honestly this is one of the worst things to do imo when it comes to competitive x wing and the problem I have with the op in his scenario. When asking for a take back you have now tainted the match. If the other person doesn't allow it he can been seen as a jerk and people could say oh he only won because he was a jerk. If he does allow the take back then people can say oh he only lost because he allowed the take back. This is why we need to strive to play as clean and perfect as possible to avoid those mistakes and situations. When asking for the take back you are putting the other player on the spot. If you say you don't expect take backs then don't ever ask for them. It's a scummy thing to do and Para it was honestly a **** move on your part for asking to shoot with your ship after you missed the opportunity. You should have taken your medicine like a grown up and accepted your mistake and learned from it.

Now against new players or those who don't want to practice tournaments than these guidelines don't apply and I'll let ya do as many take backs as ya want and will even discuss why I'm doing the stuff I'm doing and what I'm going to do.

You're basically defending a competitive attitude, which under the right circumstances is fine. The debateable thing is when and where it should be applied. I'm personally only ever overly competitive in something like pool when I'm playing for money, without such stakes I don't see a need to be otherwise. Which brings me to my next point, this is a wargame where the most sought after and desired prize for top place is some plastic tokens. It simply ain't that serious.

The part about being such a jerk for asking a oppenent if you can fix a mistake? What kinda silly logic is that. Your reason was cause it "shames" the other player into letting you have your way, that's nonsense. Chances are if you think you'll look like a jerk or feel like a jerk for refusing then chances are high that you are infact a jerk Otherwise just politely tell him no and no one will think differently of it.

You can be as competitive as you want, just know that it's always going to turn some players away from you for one simple fact. Playing someone that's overly competitive about something generally ain't fun unless you yourself are just as competitive. Having a game end short cause I got distracted by something shiny and didn't notice one my tokens or other small detail is just not fun.

And on a last note running your oppenents ships off the board when they forget stress is really lame, run em into a asteroid or a firing arc and give em a fighting chance.

EVERYONE needs to follow the rules during a tournament. This "Fly Casual" during tournaments is STUPID and in fact would ruin most games. It leads to petty bickering and unfair situations on all sides.

The game does not function well if cherry picking which rules you will follow and when.

Its not that hard to play by the rules....

For those who insist on being pieholes and demanding takebacks during tournaments and those who are equally asinine in demanding "Fly Casual Dude give takebacks" please stay home and do not go to tournaments were EVERYONE is expected to follow the rules. Its that simple. Period.

Edit note - At your house do ANYTHING you want. Not at tournaments however.

I suppose instead of being a doormat I could turn to the dark side and start using my opponent's anger to my advantage by getting them on tilt so they make further mistakes. If people are going to get angry at me for enforcing the tournament rules at a tournament I might as well use their anger to my benefit.

The fly casual crowd wants to put forward the idea that this is just a game about plastic spaceships and that the WAAC crowd shouldn't care so much yet the Fly Casual crowd tends to get angrier and therefore less casual than the WAAC type players are more often.

Might be pretty funny actually. When another situation like this arises I could further taunt my opponent by saying something like, "Give into your anger" or, "Gooooood, I can feel your anger" or, "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design".

I suppose instead of being a doormat I could turn to the dark side and start using my opponent's anger to my advantage by getting them on tilt so they make further mistakes.

How you enforce them, how you conduct yourself and how you communicate with your opponent have a really big impact on the situation.

In your original post it seemed clear that things went to a place that could have been avoided. That's just the feel I got from it, obviously I wasn't there.

I also got the feeling that you were lamenting the fact that this regular fun tournament hasn't really taken off and drawn in a lot of people. My point was that by ending up in a confrontational situation you are missing the opportunity to grow this local game/group/tournament.

@Tokyogriz: the problem is not Fly Casual. If each of the people involved in the game had had it in mind to enjoy himself and not take things too seriously, the problem would not have arisen. Fly Casual doesn't mean "don't follow the rules," although sometimes, for some people, it means forgiving your opponent for a lapse.

I still love what Fly Casual was in the beginning. Why it's so hard to grasp for some people I have no idea.

Let's be clear, I don't think many players are asking for take backs. I know I never ask, no matter what game I'm playing. I will, however, make a verbal observation of my mistake and see how my opponent reacts to that.

Every situation is different, but you can usually tell at that point, at the "Oh, I forgot to put a focus token on him" moment, which players are taking the game way too seriously.

I still think you are confusing competitiveness and anger in this situation. The last 4 tournies at the store we played in have been quite casual. You had the right to deny his action. He had the right to think it was a **** move. Not like the guy is gonna shank you over a stupid plastic space ship game... anyhow its over now, or at least i thought. Next time, just call a to over if something like this happens. Let them decide.

EDIT: As for "not wanting to sour future experiences at this venue" calling someone out on a public forum instead of talking to them in person isn't the way to achieve that future situation.

You had the right to deny his action. He had the right to think it was a **** move.

I guess this is what it boils down to, but I'm going to ask anyway:

Why does his opponent have the right to think it was a **** move to deny the late action? why should the OP be made to feel bad for adhering to the rules.

Yes the OP muddied the waters by asking for a take back later in the game, and certainly waters down his argument, but my question stands.

No one should ever be made to feel bad about playing the game correctly.

You had the right to deny his action. He had the right to think it was a **** move.

I guess this is what it boils down to, but I'm going to ask anyway:

Why does his opponent have the right to think it was a **** move to deny the late action? why should the OP be made to feel bad for adhering to the rules.

Yes the OP muddied the waters by asking for a take back later in the game, and certainly waters down his argument, but my question stands.

No one should ever be made to feel bad about playing the game correctly.

Fair enough, you make a good point. The only reason I say it was a **** move is because in the previous 4 tournaments at that store (our only 4 tournaments ever actually) people have been very casual. If a simple mistake was made the other side would allow it to be fixed and the game would move on. Para had EVERY RIGHT to deny my friend that action, and when my friend got upset about it he had every right to call a TO over to discuss it as well. He had NO obligation to just let him have it... and then later ask for a favor back... and even later make a ranting post on here about it.

My problem doesn't even lie in any of that actually. My problem lies in puking your dirty laundry all over a public forum that you know others from the same store frequent instead of calling said player over after a game and discussing it in person. My friend is a great guy, and while can get a bit aggressive/competitive, at the end of the night will shake your hand and say good job if you won. Making a post like this and then following it up with saying you don't want to sour your relationship with other people from the same store is hyperbole. In the end, like I said, I have no hard feelings towards Para. I just think that you need to be aware of who your audience is before making bold statements.

Also, as to how pissed off my friend got in the tourney about being told no to the AS action... I was 5 feet away from them playing my game and never heard any raised voices or anything. I think there is some over reacting going on here and I'll just state this one more time. If you are doing something within the rules and your opponent is disagreeing with you, call a TO. Then no one can be mad at anyone as it has been officially called a dead action.

Why does his opponent have the right to think it was a **** move to deny the late action? why should the OP be made to feel bad for adhering to the rules.

The answer to all of these questions is directly related to the CONTEXT.

The way the OP described this tournament it seems that although it was a tournament format it still sounds very casual ($5 entry / light attendance / hoping to make it a regular event). That is not a competitive tournament (and if anyone thinks it's a good idea to break out the definition of competition here please save it as you also are missing the point). When you have a small field that has put forth a nominal entry fee and part of your field is comprised of new players then you don't even have bragging rights at stake.

Technically the op was within his right to enforce said rules. At that stage I think a little eye rolling from his opponent is almost warranted given the context the op provided.

Besides that point you should be able to communicate with your opponent in such a manner as to not provoke such a response when rules need to be enforced.

EVERYONE needs to follow the rules during a tournament. This "Fly Casual" during tournaments is STUPID and in fact would ruin most games. It leads to petty bickering and unfair situations on all sides.

The game does not function well if cherry picking which rules you will follow and when.

Its not that hard to play by the rules....

For those who insist on being pieholes and demanding takebacks during tournaments and those who are equally asinine in demanding "Fly Casual Dude give takebacks" please stay home and do not go to tournaments were EVERYONE is expected to follow the rules. Its that simple. Period.

Edit note - At your house do ANYTHING you want. Not at tournaments however.

You're not describing Fly Casual in the slightest. It's got nothing to do with demanding takebacks. A player who demands takebacks is less fly casual than the player that refuses them.

I guess Fly Casual flew over his head too.

You had the right to deny his action. He had the right to think it was a **** move.

I guess this is what it boils down to, but I'm going to ask anyway:

Why does his opponent have the right to think it was a **** move to deny the late action? why should the OP be made to feel bad for adhering to the rules.

Yes the OP muddied the waters by asking for a take back later in the game, and certainly waters down his argument, but my question stands.

No one should ever be made to feel bad about playing the game correctly.

I can't help but read all of your posts in the voice of Samuel L. Jackson. It is quite entertaining.

One can be a stickler to the rules and still enforce them in a comforting, upbeat and polite manner... !

I'd rather play against that kinda guy than versus "sloppy-taksey-backseys"...!

the idea that this is just a game about plastic spaceships

I've never understood this argument at all, for anything. You can say that about anything in life. "What do elections matter? You're just matter floating through space and you'll be dead in 100 years anyway"

If I'm going to play a game, no sense in faulting someone for wanting it to be done the way it's intended. I'm ok with people enforcing rules on me because it has rules. I do however require it to be done respectfully.

If you're playing in a tournament, you have every right to correct, just say it nicely. In casual you have every right to enforce rules there too, but be sure to let people know before the game starts and also point out errors nicely.

If someone doesn't like that, they can either decline to play or ask if you'll reconsider your stance.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

the idea that this is just a game about plastic spaceships

I've never understood this argument at all, for anything.

I agree. Why does the tools of a competitive event change anything. Is Chess less competitive because it uses plastic pieces rather then a ball or puck?

It's quite frankly a nonsense argument... The only thing that really matters is how seriously someone takes it, the fact that it involves plastic space ships doesn't really matter.

Myself I'm a fairly competitive type. I love X-Wing and play it at least semi-competitively every time I play, wither it's at someone's home, at the LGS for league night or otherwise, or at regionals. The only time I don't is if I'm teaching someone how to play.

That doesn't mean I don't fly casual, because that is about the attitude behind the actions, not the actual actions. I always play to win (again unless it's a teaching game or demo.) and want the other person do to the same. Beating someone who doesn't really care is IMO not fun in the least, and if they're not doing their best then I won't really enjoy the game.

That said, doing their best does not mean I correct their mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes and part of a competitive game is taking advantage of the other persons mistakes.

That doesn't mean I need to win to have fun. I've had games I lost which were very, very enjoyable to play. I've also had games I won that weren't. Played a league game one night with a Dash, Coran list and even though I won, I didn't really enjoy it at all.

Everyone makes mistakes and part of a competitive game is taking advantage of the other persons mistakes.

I agree with this. The only thing I would note is that (for me personally) I don't feel forgetting an action or pilot ability is something I want to take advantage of. If it were a video game or had a referee who could watch the whole game from start to finish, these wouldn't happen, so I'll usually remind people. I like to win because I outflew or built a better list, not on memory errors. However, maneuvering errors, action errors, or target choice errors, I'll let you make those all day.

That being said, in a tournament, go right ahead and take advantage of any error. Not only is your opponent not obligated to assist you, the rulebook is pretty clear on the missed opportunity rules.

not on memory errors...

Here's my take on that. Remembering to use your actions or options is as much a part of playing well as is picking the correct maneuver. Some people tend to dismiss them as 'well it's just something they forgot' but the good players don't forget things like that.

I'm sure I forget things in nearly every match I play, and if someone beats me because I forgot something then they beat me fairly, after all it was my mistake in the first place. Keeping track of what your options are, is part of how well you play.

A ref is not going to remind someone of something optional, nor would a video game. If I'm playing a video game and forget that I have a health potion, the game isn't going to flash a reminder up on the screen.

If a pro chess player forgets to castle before moving his king, that's not a mistake a judge is going to point out to him.

I get some people don't like to win because someone forgot something, and they're welcome to their opinion, but not everyone shares it, and that opinion is not somehow more sporting or in anyway superior. I say that just because there are some people who seem to think that. But I don't think you Scojo are one of them.

One could argue that forgetting to use Lone Wolf is no different then picking a left bank when a right bank when most people could see that the right bank is clearly a better choice. I've lost games because I didn't judge how far a maneuver would take me, and got my Decimator trapped in a corner and then flew it off the table because no maneuver could keep me on it.

Myself if I was playing and someone pointed out "you forgot to use lone wolf" and let me reroll, and I went on to win because of that, it would IMO make it a cheap win on my part.

All this assumes of course we're talking about optional things, not mandatory effects like Wedge or Rebel Captive.

A ref is not going to remind someone of something optional, nor would a video game. If I'm playing a video game and forget that I have a health potion, the game isn't going to flash a reminder up on the screen.

Have you played most video games in the last 10 years?

Have you played most video games in the last 10 years?

Yes, Played Wildstar not to long ago and I never saw anything remind me I had healing potions or healing powers I could use. Been playing various MMO's since 2004, and have never had one remind me of something I could do.