It depends, for me actions and such are all fair game to say "sorry, but the opportunity has passed." since the actions, while important don't have a big wide impact upon the game as a whole. Things like Rebel Captive and the likes MUST occur, they are not a case of "Sorry, missed the timing!" because the wording is not optional...it happens, like it or not.

What I do think is sometimes acceptable is to give the player a break when it comes to massive game changing things, usually this is in relation to flying someone off the board. I once saw a game at a tourney where one person set his dial wrong and went flying off the board by his own hand. He looked at his opponent and his opponent just shook his head and said "x points to me." Frankly this disgusted me as a person, it was the opening round and yes while the rules do favor the opponent, I did not feel it was in the spirit of the game to get a one up on your opponent due to this cataclysmic mistake.

I get that people says "Then he will LEARN!" and yes he will learn....but not if he quits the game because of the over competitiveness of a community.

You can't take back every little mistake, and if it were 4 rounds in and he thought he might be able to skim the edge but he visualized it wrong and ended up just off the board, that is fair game because the intention was that he was going towards that board edge and ran that risk. However in that instance it was a clear mistake of direction that no sane mind would have made.

This also applies to red maneuvers when stressed. I've never been in that unfortunate situation, however a friend of mine has (which I admit may introduce bias into my account). This was in the days where double falcon was utterly dominating events. The opponent of my friend was indeed running a double falcon and, naturally it was the favorite to win, and it was beating my friend in this game. At one point the player missed an opportunity for an evade action and my friend let him take it as he said that he felt it was the sporting thing to do. So he gave his opponent the action, didn't really effect much, one single shot missed on the falcon is pretty common. Anyway, later into the game, my friend was already down a ship or two, and then he performed a K turn with his Y-Wing while it was stressed.

Rules are clear on this, but he discussed it with his opponent...who did not let him alter the move (as per rules) and took the dial...his opponent then obviously thought that since he was CLEARLY at a disadvantage with double falcon...that he would attempt to fly that Y-Wing...which was pretty lackluster in itself, off the board. I feel vomit coming up as I say that. While it does follow the rules, it breaks the spirit if competition for me, not only did he not return the sportsmanship, he also attempted to instead of putting the Y-Wing in a bad situation where it would not have the falcon in arc and the falcon could get a range 1 bonus on it, he instead decided it was more sportsmanship to simply eliminate the Y-Wing from the game with minimal effort on his account. THAT I find disgraceful. It is not surprising that this player (who will not be named) went on to win said event with dual falcons and while my friend doesn't seem to hold a grudge against him. I do, and it is exceptionally hard as a commentator for the X-Wing events at our local to remain impartial when commentating his matches because I just feel he's a bad player. I know that's me saying I don't like the way he plays because its different from me.

Just to be clear, i have no qualms about choosing your opponents maneuver for them, my problem is when instead of simply putting them in a bad position where they have a small chance of coming back into it, you take the quick and easy path and just send them off the board, which I feel is lazy, and doesn't show skill in your ability to be a player at all. Everyone says "Oh, it's a game about positioning, getting into your opponents head, and knowing the best combination to get the maximum efficiency out of your list." they don't say "It's a game where you wait for your opponent to screw up so you can save your dice rolls and just send them off the board."

That being said, I am not against sending someone off the board if it requires effort. One match i had with my A-wings vs a Decimator, Firespray and Shuttle list, I maneuvered my A-Wings in such a way that the firespray was forced off the board, however he could have picked a higher move and bypassed me. I still relied on my skill as a player to predict where he would go, and use that to position myself so it would make an area of his base fly off the board...but it could have just have easily failed.

There was this one game a friend had put bombs on his ig88's(I don't know why) and he was so focused on getting the bomb rules right he forgot to set his dial he'd done a right bank the previous turn and he was close to the edge.

So we start the round he reveals his dial and sure enough it flies him off the edge this was turn three and he'd effectively handed me a win but that didn't sit well with me so I told him to pick a move that keeps him on the board.

He didn't ask for leniency he'd of accepted it's loss but I'd of had no pleasure from a victory like that, I won anyway but it was after a real fight not because of an error.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. I've always operated under the assumption that people who play like pricks/act like pricks while playing don't get future games.

OP, your example sounds like a right and proper prick. But I've also been in the middle of tournaments and forgotten target locks and asked whether I can put them on. I've had opponents ask the same thing.

...And even in tourneys I've let them, because whats the point if I win on a technicality?

Fly Casual should mean what it says at all times. Yeah, I get that you want to win tournaments you paid money for, but that's why you both bring your A-1 lists to the table and try and outmaneuver and outgun the opposition.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. I've always operated under the assumption that people who play like pricks/act like pricks while playing don't get future games.

OP, your example sounds like a right and proper prick. But I've also been in the middle of tournaments and forgotten target locks and asked whether I can put them on. I've had opponents ask the same thing.

...And even in tourneys I've let them, because whats the point if I win on a technicality?

Fly Casual should mean what it says at all times. Yeah, I get that you want to win tournaments you paid money for, but that's why you both bring your A-1 lists to the table and try and outmaneuver and outgun the opposition.

There are still limits to that policy. It's not black and white. For instance, if someone chooses to play an incredibly challenging, complicated list and struggles to remember all of their actions/abilities/timing plays, you can't reward them for being incompetent with the list by constantly allowing them to backtrack. As pointed out previously, yes, be a friendly opponent and yes be reasonable, but nobody learns if their mistakes always go without consequence.

I think it's okay to fly stressed red maneuver ships off the board. I think that's more okay than not allowing post dial reveal/post maneuver Advanced Sensors triggers. Not being able to do reds while you're stressed is fundamental to the game, and choosing a red maneuver while you're stressed is cheating pretty much however non-intentional it may be and the punishment for doing a 'double red' is your opponent gets to control your ship.

Once I was at a tourney, and during the setup phase I put a ship facing towards the board edge without realizing it. My opponent told me that I put a ship backwards and he allowed me to change it. If he had not told me, I would have flown it off the board and either had a good laugh about it and/or chastised myself for not being diligent during setup, I wouldn't have been angry at my opponent because it was my mistake. My attitude seems to be more of a, 'fly casual' approach than someone who is going to get all huffy about rules they don't like and consider someone abiding by those rules a prick that shouldn't get future games.

It doesn't make sense to me to get mad at your opponent/file him under, 'that guy' and never play a game with him again for YOUR mistake.

I view easymode wins by errors from my opponent the same way I view rolling well. I breathe a sigh of relief and consider myself lucky that I was matched up against someone who made a mistake. It doesn't happen enough to me to deprive me of actual games and make me bemoan an easymode win.

You have to understand that me thinking like this doesn't apply to casual games. Half the time I'm coaching my opponent on forgotten triggers and better options if they choose a sub-par action.

My rule of thumb, with Advanced Sensors especially, is that you can declare your move right up to the point you've physically put down the template.

I mean, I can forgive someone doing the muscle-reflex "This ships turn, flip the dial... oh, uh, can I advanced-sensors that?" no problem.

Measuring the move then asking to use it? Given you might've not used it if you hadn't realised you were about to bump or the like... I'm going to go with 'no'. That said, when you're revealing a red manouvre, it should be pretty obvious that Advanced Sensors was intended. I might let that one slide.

Of course, I do try to keep things casual.

This is mostly a result of Armada tournaments, but: when people ask for favors during tournaments, I always say no. But this was not my initial approach. Initially, I (almost) always said yes, and assumed that if I were to ask for similar consideration they'd grant it to me. I was mistaken; after my third opponent who was willing to ask for special consideration but was not willing to grant special consideration, I decided I wasn't going to be generous about that sort of thing anymore. Your local meta may vary.

I suppose I could say something like "Okay, you go get the TO and we'll explain that I'm allowing you a 'takeback' with the understanding that you will grant me the same courtesy should I ask for it," but...nah, can't be bothered.

This topic is so beat to death.

Playing casual I can see letting your friends take moves back. Or not as well.

In tournament you are actually a huge jerk if you demand a person allow you to take something back or change an action. The game would not function if everyone could take back anything they wish. Grow up. Play within the rules and move on. That's it.

If you cant then find a game with no rules and you can feel free to ignore anything you wish.

My rule of thumb, with Advanced Sensors especially, is that you can declare your move right up to the point you've physically put down the template.

I mean, I can forgive someone doing the muscle-reflex "This ships turn, flip the dial... oh, uh, can I advanced-sensors that?" no problem.

Measuring the move then asking to use it? Given you might've not used it if you hadn't realised you were about to bump or the like... I'm going to go with 'no'. That said, when you're revealing a red manouvre, it should be pretty obvious that Advanced Sensors was intended. I might let that one slide.

Of course, I do try to keep things casual.

Advanced Sensors : sure before ship is moved its fine by me.

This is mostly a result of Armada tournaments, but: when people ask for favors during tournaments, I always say no. But this was not my initial approach. Initially, I (almost) always said yes, and assumed that if I were to ask for similar consideration they'd grant it to me. I was mistaken; after my third opponent who was willing to ask for special consideration but was not willing to grant special consideration, I decided I wasn't going to be generous about that sort of thing anymore. Your local meta may vary.

I suppose I could say something like "Okay, you go get the TO and we'll explain that I'm allowing you a 'takeback' with the understanding that you will grant me the same courtesy should I ask for it," but...nah, can't be bothered.

Armada should be another thing entirely. Cause its still pretty new and people are not that experienced as in xwing. Mistakes are WAY more likely to happen there.

"If I don't punish his mistake, he'll never learn!"

People learn (or not) for a lot of really complicated reasons. You're not being some 'tough but fair' benevolent instructor by punishing someone for a good-faith mistake, you're just taking advantage of the situation for an easy win.

The golden rule is not 'treat others how you'd like to be treated' because you've no idea how someone else might want to be treated. Just because you want to be treated harshly if you make a mistake doesn't mean someone else wants that treatment. The golden rule is 'treat others how THEY want to be treated' Be hard on them if that's what they want, and be soft on them if that's what they want.

Even in a tournament. Even in the final round of Nationals or Worlds. It's just a game of toy spaceships and the prizes are not so significant that you want to be a **** in order to get them.

Whatever fly casual means to you, just do that. Always.

IMO it comes down to just basic sense and manners. Yes it's a tournament and thus you're playing to win, but it's a local tournament and if you want a good healthy game group it's best not scare people away with rule lawyering. If someone makes a mistake that is just common sense(like your given example), or gains them no true tactical advantage over if they just did it in the first place, then IMO you should allow it without to much fuss.

For example a game I had with my buddy I messed up on my firing order due to forgeting the pilot skill on one of my guys. If I did it in the correct order my first ship would of stripped his shields and the second ship would of scored a crit, he decided to argue that sense I messed up the order I didn't get the crit. I argued that both my ships had no other possible targets or abilities that would change the outcome of my decision so he should just let me get the crit, I let him have his way. Later in the game, for this reason, I may of neglected to mention that if he damaged me with his Ruthlessness equiped ship that it would take the last hitpoint off his arc dodger that had a clear shot on the hind quarters of my other ship. After this little incident I think it may of left a bitter taste as he forfeited the game.

The point is we all make little innocent mistake and should be forgiven them, it is after all a game for fun, even with the competitive aspect.

To be fair getting crits on ships does give you a big advantage. Honestly the best thing for you to do would have been to just accept the game state as it was but it sounded like you really wanted that critical on the decimator. Crits especially on a decimator can give you a tactical advantage. You honestly sound a little hypocritical.

He did accept it, and then he returned the favor to his opponent, it sounds like.

are we really talking about this stuff again? Has it really made it to 7 pages?

"If I don't punish his mistake, he'll never learn!"

People learn (or not) for a lot of really complicated reasons. You're not being some 'tough but fair' benevolent instructor by punishing someone for a good-faith mistake, you're just taking advantage of the situation for an easy win.

The golden rule is not 'treat others how you'd like to be treated' because you've no idea how someone else might want to be treated. Just because you want to be treated harshly if you make a mistake doesn't mean someone else wants that treatment. The golden rule is 'treat others how THEY want to be treated' Be hard on them if that's what they want, and be soft on them if that's what they want.

Even in a tournament. Even in the final round of Nationals or Worlds. It's just a game of toy spaceships and the prizes are not so significant that you want to be a **** in order to get them.

Whatever fly casual means to you, just do that. Always.

I agree that I'm not being some benevolent instructor and that I'm taking advantage of the rules to get an easy win. There is still the side effect of your opponent learning not to forget triggers for suffering consequences for forgetting them.

Well of course someone is going to want you to go soft on them. The rules don't necessitate that I treat someone how they want to be treated, just that I treat them in accordance with the rules of the game. If they don't like certain rules of the game that's their problem.

I enjoy this game a lot, it's important to me and I look forward to playing it all week. I treat it like a hobby. I always try my best when there is a medal up for grabs.

Learn the rules and learn to play by the rules. If you forget, that's your fault. I still make mistakes, and even if I'm allowed to take an action back, I try not to because I forgot to do something. This is a game of memory and knowing when to do certain things due to timing or triggers. It's imperative to learn to play within the rules, otherwise, you're essentially diluting the game of the elements that make it great. If you're bringing a competitive list to an event that you pay for, then you pretty much have to throw 'fly casual' out the window.

Learn the rules and learn to play by the rules. If you forget, that's your fault. I still make mistakes, and even if I'm allowed to take an action back, I try not to because I forgot to do something. This is a game of memory and knowing when to do certain things due to timing or triggers. It's imperative to learn to play within the rules, otherwise, you're essentially diluting the game of the elements that make it great. If you're bringing a competitive list to an event that you pay for, then you pretty much have to throw 'fly casual' out the window.

I will never throw 'fly casual' out of the window. It takes time to learn all the nuances and timing. Even experienced players make mistakes.

I am glad you are not in my meta (for you). You'd have a real tough time finding people who were willing to play you.

Learn the rules and learn to play by the rules. If you forget, that's your fault. I still make mistakes, and even if I'm allowed to take an action back, I try not to because I forgot to do something. This is a game of memory and knowing when to do certain things due to timing or triggers. It's imperative to learn to play within the rules, otherwise, you're essentially diluting the game of the elements that make it great. If you're bringing a competitive list to an event that you pay for, then you pretty much have to throw 'fly casual' out the window.

I will never throw 'fly casual' out of the window. It takes time to learn all the nuances and timing. Even experienced players make mistakes.

I am glad you are not in my meta (for you). You'd have a real tough time finding people who were willing to play you.

**respond angry garb**

Seriously? Checking to see who is bigger are we?

The golden rule is not 'treat others how you'd like to be treated' because you've no idea how someone else might want to be treated.

Actually that is exactly what the golden rule states. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Again, who is flying more casual?

The player who doesn't allow his opponent to perform missed triggers and doesn't get angry when he's not allowed to perform his own missed triggers,

or,

the player who gets angry and/or won't play with someone again because they expect their own mistakes to be corrected by their opponent when the rules state that he's not obligated to?

Again, who is flying more casual?

My problem with the whole Fly Casual thing is that people want to define it by what you do or don't do, rather then IMO the true state of Flying Casual which is all about your attitude.

I could in theory allow someone to take a missed opportunity, and in fact let them do it the whole game, fixing the same mistake every round, and still not be flying casual if I have a crappy attitude about it.

If I say "Sure go ahead, because clearly you're such a f'ing newb that you shouldn't even be here and I'll crush you anyway' you're not flying casual.

Likewise if I don't let you do it but have a good attitude... then I'm flying casual.

"Well here's the thing, if I let you take that action now, you have more information then you should, and that's not really fair. I want a good clean game that we both feel we did our best at. Cool?" Is very much flying casual.

My problem with Fly Casual is it seems too many people want to use it as a hammer rather than an attitude.

My problem with Fly Casual is it seems too many people want to use it as a hammer rather than an attitude.

My problem is some people use it as an excuse to attack casuals while playing the victim.

Again, who is flying more casual?

The player who doesn't allow his opponent to perform missed triggers and doesn't get angry when he's not allowed to perform his own missed triggers,

or,

the player who gets angry and/or won't play with someone again because they expect their own mistakes to be corrected by their opponent when the rules state that he's not obligated to?

Why is this thread still going? Fly Casual is dead. It's been bastardized by too many to even have any significance at this point.

ParaGoomba, you paid money ($5) for a (fun) tournament that you described as being an event that your FLGS is rying to get going on a regular basis but so far hasn't had a big turnout. During said tournament you chose, fairly, to not allow your opponent, a new player, to take his action after forgetting to do so at the proper time when triggering Advanced Sensors. It was a common new player mistake.

You made your bed, now you can lie in it.

If you are trying to grow the game or a regular tournament at your LGS then this is absolutely the worst possible decision you can make. You are within your rights but if this player is new and you are obviously experienced AND you brought a competitive list (seeing as you are clearly trying to win at all costs) then you should probably be beating the newbie as is regardless of one missed or granted action.

If this is a GSC or Regional or some sort of Imdaar Alpha/Kessel Run type tournament I would totally get you wanting to enforce rules. At that stage you still have the choice to make how you enforce it. But this isn't that type of event unless you left out some context. This clearly seems to be a regular thing in the works. If you don't want to do your part to conduct yourself in a manner that is inviting and conducive to growing the game then that's a "you issue".

Make your choice. But these are the two sides of the coin and clearly you chose to take the one that isn't friendly and fun.

What else is there to discuss?

My problem with Fly Casual is it seems too many people want to use it as a hammer rather than an attitude.

My problem is some people use it as an excuse to attack casuals while playing the victim.

Thing is, most of the discussions like this haven't been regarding causals, it's been around incidents that happened at tournaments. I doubt you'll find anyone demanding strict adherence to the rules between two people playing a random match on a Saturday afternoon in their basement.

Again, who is flying more casual?

The player who doesn't allow his opponent to perform missed triggers and doesn't get angry when he's not allowed to perform his own missed triggers,

or,

the player who gets angry and/or won't play with someone again because they expect their own mistakes to be corrected by their opponent when the rules state that he's not obligated to?

Make your choice. But these are the two sides of the coin and clearly you chose to take the one that isn't friendly and fun.

What else is there to discuss?

The fact that you can ask someone to adhere to the rules AND still be friendly about it and have fun?

Again, who is flying more casual?

The player who doesn't allow his opponent to perform missed triggers and doesn't get angry when he's not allowed to perform his own missed triggers,

or,

the player who gets angry and/or won't play with someone again because they expect their own mistakes to be corrected by their opponent when the rules state that he's not obligated to?

Make your choice. But these are the two sides of the coin and clearly you chose to take the one that isn't friendly and fun.

What else is there to discuss?

The fact that you can ask someone to adhere to the rules AND still be friendly about it and have fun?

Intentional or not, the part of my post that you left after deleting the rest makes it look like the two sides of the coin I am referring to are in ParaGoomba's post. That is not accurate.

This whole issue boils down to how you conduct yourself. In this case how you conduct yourself in a very specific context.

The manner in which I attempt to always conduct myself when playing X-Wing is in a vein of fun regardless of the format. Again, it's his choice how he wants to conduct himself but when you specifically have a fun tournament that should factor in for most people if you are trying to grow the game and foster a good community.