It has been my experience that those who learn from their mistakes instead of trying to fudge through them tend to be the most terrifying X-Wing players... at least in our area

I'm with Vandor all the way on this one. I don't want to win at anything because my opponent made a silly or ignorant mistake or I use a technicality to bash them over the head. I can help them improve by making the error known to them and giving them a chance to correct it. I want to win because I play against a 100% opponent while exercising the golden rule. I don't care if it's Paul Heaver at Worlds or my niece who's 8. The principles are the same for me. I don't have enforce a rule as punishment to teach it. In fact if I play someone who is clearly struggling to remember a rule or action I'll ask them for a quick 1 ship game where the focus is to remember the rule (time permitting). Even the best players forget things. I don't expect other players to feel the same as I do but I also don't let their choices change mine (I find this to be a good life rule in general). The only situation in which I would be miffed about would be if I allowed several allowances for an opponent then he got technical on my first one.

That's just me. I don't call out 10 year olds when they step on the line while serving in volleyball and I don't go around challenging girls to arm wrestle.

Yes, but his decision to TL was after pre-measuring. Again, if the opponent knows he will land out of enemy arc, choosing to TL is advantageous over focusing. If the opponent didn't pre-measure the Segnor's, he might have gone the conservative route and Focused. That's one of the inherent risks of AdvS - you have to anticipate where you'll end up and base your choice of action on that. Pre-measuring eliminates that risk.

You're right (and I was wrong): there is indeed a potential advantage to putting the template in place. But I still think the newer player deserves the benefit of the doubt. That is, it's very possible the player really was intending to take a TL, and wasn't taking advantage, and--given that it's a new player at a casual event--the right call was to relax a little bit rather than escalating the confrontation.

Or, to put it still another way, was the advantage the new player might have gotten worth more than the disruption and frustration the OP helped cause?

I'm not saying the right decision was to say nothing. The OP could have said "Hey, just so you know, the right time to do that is before you flip your dial. It's fine this time, but next time I'll have to call you on it." Depending on the context, the OP could even have said "Sorry, but once you've put your template down, you've got a whole bunch of extra information that helps make your decision. I'll help you remember next round, though." And it's also completely possible that nothing the OP said would have changed the outcome, because the other guy was primed to go into a snit anyway.

But this reads, to me, like someone jumping on a technical violation of the rules to gain an advantage over a tournament opponent--in the context of a casual game against a new player. And, to reiterate, that's not something that would lead me to seek another game against the OP in the future.

So let me get this straight, you are all for enforcing the rules when it is to your advantage, but have no qualms about asking for your opponent to gift you an opportunity well after the fact. You don't get to play both ways. You get an F for fly casual.

For the record, for the people saying oh it's a casual tournament. Things like this happened all the time at Nationals too and 99% of people are cool with it. The point is no one tiny decision like this definitively determines the result of a game. If you thinking forward in that denying this person an action now will help me win a Dash then you have major problems, as that is premeditation.

The way I play, and most of the people I play with, if the decision is a no brainer, decloaking, FCS, taking an action then it is fine. If I knew exactly what he would do and he didn't do it, it is fair game to complete, most often I will remind them because I want to win on merit, not a technicality. Same goes for attacks if the order is unlikely to matter.

Fly casual. There is a time when missed opportunities are relevant to enforce and this was unfortunately not one.

1.) The difference between me and the 'militant' casual player I speak of is that when I'm denied the ability to do a missed trigger I don't get bent out of shape by it. I politely ask and if I'm denied the missed trigger I completely understand.

2.) If the player had not placed his template down and just revealed his dial to me, while still technically a missed trigger at that point, I would not have minded because it wouldn't have been relevant. If someone places down a focus token and then a few seconds later before the game state changes wants to evade instead I don't mind.

3.) Good. 'Fly casual' is a euphemism for, "I promote sloppy play". "Oh, you did a red maneuver while already stressed near the board edge? Go ahead, take that back." "You forgot to recloak your autowin phantom you've been playing for weeks? Go ahead, do it."

3.) Good. 'Fly casual' is a euphemism for, "I promote sloppy play".

Fly Casual is a euphemism for "be the kind of player you'd want to sit down with again," or even more simply, "don't be a jerk at the table."

Fly Casual is not an excuse for sloppy play. Good players should know and follow the rules. But I have never played, watched, or even heard of a completely mistake-free game, and at that point Fly Casual comes into play. How do you handle the situation? Do you do it with grace and empathy, or do you make a bad situation worse by fashioning the mistake into a bludgeon and beating your opponent over the head with it?

I would never, under any circumstances, try to prevent a missed Advanced Sensors TL. If someone did that to me I wouldn't get upset or anything, but they are playing a different kind of game than the one I prefer and we probably wouldn't be playing any games in the future outside of tournaments.

Beating someone because they missed a TL or cloak is like beating someone at League of Legends because they forgot to charge their mouse batteries. You did not earn it, they just accidentally gave it to you. Perhaps you earned a win anyways, but you'll never know.

So last night I was flying a swarm against dual IG's with advanced sensors. He reveals his dial, sets the template down in the front nubs of the ship for a 3 Segnor's, and before he moves the ship he attempts to declare a TL. I don't let him because he has already revealed a dial and measured the maneuver out.

He says, "Oh, so you want to play /that/ way? It's a casual tournament and I'm a new player".

After I can see how angry he is and how few people show up to the newly founded Thursday X Wing $5 tournament at this venue, I relent and allow him to do it, he angrily refuses to take the TL I allowed him to take, and then I again make it clear I'm fine with him doing the TL so he does it. When it comes time to go to the firing phase the ship he TL'ed isn't in arc of the IG he says something like, "See, it doesn't matter anyways".

This player was a beginner, but he isn't super new to the game and he's played dual IG's a few times before. By now he should know his triggers.

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now. Also, it helps their play because once someone is denied a forgotten ACD for example, they won't ever make the mistake again.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it. When I'm denied the ability to perform forgotten triggers I see it as a fault in my memory and not the fault of my opponent for not being lenient.

No information was gained by him when he revealed his dial. I'd let someone take the TL in that situation even at a high level event.

If he moved and got a better vantage of his shot: then I'd be wary.

This thread will go to 40 pages of casual scum vs rules perfectionist.

Personally I'd go the route that says "I'll let you do that THIS time, but next time please remember".

I love the amount of people who take time to shoot down OP for no reason. I find it quite amusing. If OP wants to ask question, then it is a valid question.

Anyway, I wouldn't have let him do it. Not because I am an a-hole, or because I am competitive, but the best way to learn is from your mistakes. I did some stupid things at my first few tournaments, though I have never made those mistakes again.

This thread will go to 40 pages of casual scum vs rules perfectionist.

Personally I'd go the route that says "I'll let you do that THIS time, but next time please remember".

I couldn't put it better myself.

It sounds to me that many that truly understand Fly Casual should play the Japanese game Go. It is a very old board game that dictates if an opponent wants to take back a move (at any time and any number of them) they can. The game does not end until one of the players admits defeat. Mind you, I wouldn't want to play X-wing this way... but it is the EXTREME version of I won by skill and in no way luck or by opponents mistakes.

So last night I was flying a swarm against dual IG's with advanced sensors. He reveals his dial, sets the template down in the front nubs of the ship for a 3 Segnor's, and before he moves the ship he attempts to declare a TL. I don't let him because he has already revealed a dial and measured the maneuver out.

He says, "Oh, so you want to play /that/ way? It's a casual tournament and I'm a new player".

After I can see how angry he is and how few people show up to the newly founded Thursday X Wing $5 tournament at this venue, I relent and allow him to do it, he angrily refuses to take the TL I allowed him to take, and then I again make it clear I'm fine with him doing the TL so he does it. When it comes time to go to the firing phase the ship he TL'ed isn't in arc of the IG he says something like, "See, it doesn't matter anyways".

This player was a beginner, but he isn't super new to the game and he's played dual IG's a few times before. By now he should know his triggers.

1.) Unless someone is super new, as in first handful of games, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to deny forgotten triggers because they should know better by now. Also, it helps their play because once someone is denied a forgotten ACD for example, they won't ever make the mistake again.

2.) I don't understand why someone would get so angry about it. When I'm denied the ability to perform forgotten triggers I see it as a fault in my memory and not the fault of my opponent for not being lenient.

No information was gained by him when he revealed his dial. I'd let someone take the TL in that situation even at a high level event.

If he moved and got a better vantage of his shot: then I'd be wary.

He didn't just reveal the dial. He didn't even just place the template on the table, according to the OP it was placed in the guides before he said he wanted to TL. Even if he hadn't moved the ship he still had a much clearer picture of where his ship was going to be than from just eyeballing it. Sure, he probably wasn't intentionally looking to get information, he may have intended to Target Lock the whole time, and that's probably the case since he was somewhat newer, but he absolutely gained information he didn't have before placing the template in the guides.

If it were just a casual pickup game, fine, I'd let that slide with a "you need to make sure you declare your action before touching the ship, at least." At tournament of any type that I paid money to enter? I'm far less likely to be lenient on that sort of thing, and I wouldn't expect my opponent to be to me either.

Game doesn't end until a player admits defeat.....

.....or a after 182 hours of none stop gaming, combined with sleep deprivation and frustration, one of the players finally snaps and beats himself to death with his own chair.

Something I actually find a bit amusing in this is "what difference does it make when a TL gets taken?" I mean the only reasons I can see to take the TL BEFORE performing your maneuver are:

1. You're going to land on something and lose your Action!

2. You're going to move out of range and not have any other action you want to perform.

3. Some weird interaction gets triggers/set up that I can't think of right now.

If you intend to use it this turn to shoot why not wait until after you're in position to actually see if the target will be in range to attack?

I'm normally for a bit of leniency and giving reminders about actions the this could be a case I have trouble with. I don't believe you should penalize a player just because he isn't as great at spacial relationships as someone else (ie. I think some level of "pre measuring" is fine) as that spacial advantage still pulls ahead in the long term but this could be a case where the final position dictates what action should have been taken. Here I think saying "no" to the takeback is actually the responsible thing unless situation #1 was going to occur.

Game doesn't end until a player admits defeat.....

.....or a after 182 hours of none stop gaming, combined with sleep deprivation and frustration, one of the players finally snaps and beats himself to death with his own chair.

So you've played Go? lol

He didn't just reveal the dial. He didn't even just place the template on the table, according to the OP it was placed in the guides before he said he wanted to TL. Even if he hadn't moved the ship he still had a much clearer picture of where his ship was going to be than from just eyeballing it. Sure, he probably wasn't intentionally looking to get information, he may have intended to Target Lock the whole time, and that's probably the case since he was somewhat newer, but he absolutely gained information he didn't have before placing the template in the guides.

Yep. That's the only reason I'd deny it: he's making the decision with significantly more board placement information, the best information you can have when deciding on TL. (I mean, imagine he placed the template and determined he'd crash, and then tried to AdvS?)

I'm very Fly Casual. As long as the board-state hasn't changed, including available information, I'll let people go back and do pretty much everything.

But the above falls into my caveat.

That said, I would say something like, "It's important to remember with AdvS that you need to do it before you measure your maneuver. By the rules, you have to do it before you even flip up your dial. I won't hold you to that, but a lot of people will, and if it comes down to a dispute, it'll be ruled in their favor."

ABT, baby. Always Be Teaching.

Paid tournament. Follow the rules.

If you don't like the nature of competition don't play at a tournament. It is an easy trigger to miss but where you only have 2 ships to worry about in a very competitive build at a tournament you need to understand that no one is there to hold your hand. Accept you messed up, don't take the action, and proceed to try and smash some face with your list.

If you are playing to win and are not in a tournament then I might say you are playing the wrong way.

You know who is at fault here, well both of you. Disagreements happen but it is obvious both of you are more worried about winning the game than playing the game. Yeah casual games allow for recovering missed opportunities to learn how the list and mechanics worked. Okay maybe instead of shout HA you missed it HA HA try a friendly reminder instead. However your opponent getting in an argument about how he should be allowed means he is just as much interested in winning a game than playing it. As a casual player if I am playing against a jerk (or getting too salty because of my dice rolling all blanks and I don't want to turn into a jerk) I just say good game and concede.

Nothing wrong with wanting to play a game like a tournament but still you have to set that rule for yourself and establish it for opponent first when it is not a tournament or competitive league then good. However the competitive season is just about over, all the regionals in the US have been finished, the US nationals just ended and unless you already got your ticket to worlds or win a nationals in one of the few countries that still has them you are not going to be in any serious games of X-wing anytime soon. Seriously it is just a game, fly casual you two.

Remember, a noob blew up the death star.

If this happened in a match [tournament] (which it does) I would allow them it this time, and gently remind them that they need to declare prior the reveal. Then if it happens again I would be like sorry, you can't. I thinks some of the leway comes from how they act, if I had that guy I would be more unforgiving, if they realize the mistake and seem flustered, I may let them do it one more time.

Had it happen actually this weekend, playing a new player and I reminded him of his actions at times, after 3 in a row I didn't. He didn't take an action, even after I asked if he was all set, he said yes, and I did my move. That exchange got his Echo blasted out the sky. In talking after the match I asked why he didnt take an action and he said he just forgot. It happens, but he was nice about it and not getting all worked up on it.

as for the anger, maybe he/she has forgot about it alot and is more mad at themslves, but maybe they are just trying to work the system. You never know.

I'm having a hard time writing this off as a delicate or pedantic timing issue when it's the way the upgrade works. This isn't "Hey we've got dual Corrans wanting to attack during the end phase, who goes first?" This is the card saying, "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver..."

I allow everyone one mistake, after that it's by the book in tournament play. Everyone deserves one chance.

I'm having a hard time writing this off as a delicate or pedantic timing issue when it's the way the upgrade works. This isn't "Hey we've got dual Corrans wanting to attack during the end phase, who goes first?" This is the card saying, "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver..."

It's pedantic because what the **** does it matter if someone has flipped over their dial before deciding to use AdvS? The only possible answer is, "Because that's not what the card says," and -- while true -- insisting upon adherence to something, even if true, when it just doesn't matter ... well, that's pretty much the definition of pedantry.

Flipping the dial over doesn't actually matter. Thus insisting that it's then too late for AdvS is both pedantry and ******-baggery ... even though it's technically "the rules."

Contrast that with "measuring out the maneuver." That actually matters. So insisting that it's too late for AdvS is just insisting on fairness.

Warn the first time. Even if you want to use this as tournament practice then it's in your interest to have your opponent play at their best.

If it happened again, sure be punititive, but really it's in no one's interest to enforce the first offense here.

Playing tournaments by the rules actually makes for a better game experience for everyone involved and avoids any unfair advantage to any give player. Mistakes are part of the game and can and should cost you points or a game if it comes to it.

In casual play of course I would not follow this strict interpretation.

One fellow at a tournament I was in a few months ago played his phantom attacked and didn't recloak. He then went again with his decimator and then I began playing. After I had moved and then declared an attack on his uncloaked phantom he suddenly declared his intent to cloak. I said no and was within both the rules and the spirit of the game in doing so. He got super angry and made a huge jerk of himself in the process, of course not speaking to me again. I found his behavior extremely poor.

It would not be fun to play a competitive game were there are always "take backs" and I apply this to myself as well.

People make mistakes and that is part of the game at the competitive level.

I just think you need to be consistent. And since you can't let all the rules you don't think matter slide, you're better off enforcing all the rules.

I try my best to remind my opponents to take actions after they move and don't do one. I assume they would want one. Unless they moved there piece and then realized they should have TL'd I probably would have let them. Things like FCS I would also let them take even if it got to the activation phase. I play this way even in regionals but I never expect my opponents to give me this same courtesy unless I have given it to them. If this game stops being fun I won't play anymore and I like to keep it casual