If you deny the player the chance to use his ability at a point where the trigger has passed, BUT the game state has not changed in any meaningful way, you are not flying casual. If you then go online to complain about it, it's also not flying casual.

In saying that, your opponents snarky response wasn't called for either.

The point of fly casual is to treat people with respect, to allow them a bit of leeway when coming to gripes with all the different triggers and rule interactions, and ultimately to have fun.

It ultimately sounds like a very minor disagreement between 2 people with poor conflict resolution skills.

First, I find it a bit funny that a player who's flown dual AS IG's - a very competitive, and difficult list - multiple times is complaining and giving the "I'm new, this is casual" excuse.

If he had only revealed the dial then did AS actions, that's perfectly acceptable and happens all the time despite not technically being legal. But the fact that he measured the maneuver out obviously biases his decision (i.e. TL vs Focus based on whether the IG is within an arc) and shouldn't have been allowed.

Also, sometimes it's hard to call people out and speak the truth. I've been denied picking up a focus token I had just placed (wanted to boost instead). It was unsettling at first and seemed like a harsh lesson at the time but it's made me a better player and I'm thankful they took the risk of being an arse.

Which is why I'm glad when I hear players say "Whoops I made a mistake... Buuut I'll live with the results because this is practice for tournaments anyway." That kind of mindset is exactly what will make you a better player - not ignored carelessness. We make mistakes and learn from them in casual games so we don't make them in tournaments when they actually count.

Taking a tournament list does not give you an advantage unless you know how to fly it well, plenty of people netdeeck they don't automatically gain the skills to be crowned world champion.

Some people are good at list building others are clueless and emulate others in the hopes it'll help.

The situation described happens often in my area during league play as players are constantly trying new builds with different combinations of upgrades. The most commonly forgotten thing?....phantom decloaks, ACD recloaks and AS actions.

I don't know if there was nefarious intent on the part of your opponent to premeasure his maneuver before taking his AS action but a compromise in this situation would have been to afford him at least a focus action.

In tournament play, would you deny someone the benefit of an ACD recloak after they've attacked because a decloak token isn't there beside the ship? To me, that's just silly but to each his own.

Casual tournaments exist in part as a learning experience. If you're not willing to bite the bullet when you miss a trigger, a casual tournament is a good place to start getting used to that. There should be some leeway involved, of course. But consistent laziness or disregard for the spirit of the rules is not flying casual.

Regarding missed triggers- I generally point them out once. If you continue to forget, I stop reminding you. I'm also a bit less likely to cut someone slack if they're playing a top tier list- You had time to research it, you should have taken the time to learn its ins and outs.

If he moved the ship, crashed, and then tried to declare Advanced Sensors then I'd see where you were coming from, but trying to prevent his action in this case was somewhat excessive, and no doubt made you come across (whether it's true or not) as one of those players so desperate to win that they'll call players out on anything they can get away with, whether it makes a difference or not. And for some players, having to deal with a player like that sucks all fun out of the game, and the bad atmosphere that creates is usually felt by both players.

Note that he didn't insist on being able to take the action, he simply expressed ire at what he perceived your attitude to be. What I suspect would have happened had you not offered to allow the action is that he would have continued, been much more careful himself and would have spent the whole game searching for an opportunity to catch you out.

If it doesn't make a difference point it out but don't try to prevent their action for something that innocous, especially on the first instance. The rules are on your side but it sets the tone for the whole game.

Casual tournaments exist in part as a learning experience. If you're not willing to bite the bullet when you miss a trigger, a casual tournament is a good place to start getting used to that.

Regarding missed triggers- I generally point them out once. If you continue to forget, I stop reminding you. I'm also a bit less likely to cut someone slack if they're playing a top tier list- You had time to research it, you should have taken the time to learn its ins and outs.

So if I researched surfing you'd expect me to stay on the board and not get wiped out my first try?

Theoretical and practical are not the same thing friendo.

I played 40k for 20 years and I'd get carried away sometimes and forget something.

I raid in wow and if I'm learning a new rotation I won't get it right off even though I've read the guides in depth because muscle memory hasn't been learnt yet.

Knowing=/=doing.

Unless it's a regional or store championship there really should be no arguing about it. Allow them to make the missed action if it was a recent mistake. They are not going back to change an action just doing something they should have and missed. A friendly mulligan once in a while is fine and leads to a more enjoyable experience for all. This is why most people hate tournaments in miniature games people who take a game way to seriously. This article reads like someone justfying his anger issues and trying to write it off in the nicest way possible,

At the bottom rung, the friendly, casual, store tournament, there is room for error. As a TO, I often find that it is the "more experience" players that are causing the problem (indirectly) for the person who is nervous and playing in their first organized competitive play.

Here is where the experienced player is doing an injustice to the new guy.... casually skipping steps and not calling his actions (and in the appropriate order). I get it, we've played the game thousands of times and doing a few things at the same time or technically out of order does not change the outcome of the turn or round. It IS confusing to new guy, and they will probably attempt to match your play style and speed to disastrous effects. I have a reputation for doing everything by the numbers in my local FLGS and I believe ALL experienced players SHOULD be playing this way. It helps avoid confusion and aggravation over the rules for both the inexperienced and the seasoned veteran. Because, after all, YOUR short-cuts to the game may not (and probably ARE NOT) the same short-cuts your opponent is use to seeing/using. You BOTH should know the correct way to play the game though.

I seriously doubt anyone flying dual IGs is as new the game as they're letting on. New players generally don't just happen to be fielding ships that are in the high tier of the current meta.

I seriously doubt anyone flying dual IGs is as new the game as they're letting on. New players generally don't just happen to be fielding ships that are in the high tier of the current meta.

When I started playing my friend used nothing but lists like Biggs walks the dog and other popular builds because he was able to freely buy rebel ships while imp ships were sold out I couldn't get an interceptor anywhere.

I had a bunch of tie fighters a Firespray and an advanced while he had every option open to him, it forced me to get good fast.

As soon as scum was released he went straight to brobots.

It's really not hard to Google popular builds.

I seriously doubt anyone flying dual IGs is as new the game as they're letting on. New players generally don't just happen to be fielding ships that are in the high tier of the current meta.

Of course they do. They netdeck.

The situation described is completely innocuous. It's an easy trigger to miss, especially if the game is moving quickly, and (critically) the game state hadn't changed since the trigger. The OP was, if not out of line in a technical sense, enforcing the rules for the sake of rules and not because there was anything depending on the judgment.There's a time to think about and work with rules in an exacting, literal, and algorithmic way--and that time is away from the table, when everyone has lots of time and lots of reference materials available. That time is definitely not in the middle of the activation phase at a tournament, and especially not at a casual tournament.So I would have been annoyed, too. I wouldn't have lost my temper over it (or at least I hope not), but I wouldn't be interested in playing another game with the OP, ever.

I wasn't enforcing the rules just for the sake of the rules, I was enforcing them because I wanted to win an alt art Dash card instead of having to pay $11 for one on eBay, which I ended up doing on my phone immediately afterwards anyways.

Also, I should mention that afterwards I fired with all my PS 1 TIEs and realized I had forgotten to fire with my PS 4. So I asked if I could and he allowed it, but if he didn't I would not have been angry as denying missed triggers is his right and it would have been an opportunity for me to better remember PS order when firing. He won a fancy velvet X Wing dice bag and I traded my TIE Fighter one for it, and afterwards we had a friendly discussion, albeit one that mostly avoided the issue discussed in this thread. This isn't meant to be an attack on the player in question, just an attack on the 'militant' casual thing.

I seriously doubt anyone flying dual IGs is as new the game as they're letting on. New players generally don't just happen to be fielding ships that are in the high tier of the current meta.

I'm not sure about that, especially with something like Dual IGs. That list almost builds itself. I would expect that most new players are going to check some sort of forum or ask more experienced players for list advice.

I played a guy at regionals who was running a dual IG list and it was obvious that he didn't really have a lot of experience playing other than with friends or at a small and very casual FLGS.

I seriously doubt anyone flying dual IGs is as new the game as they're letting on. New players generally don't just happen to be fielding ships that are in the high tier of the current meta.

Of course they do. They netdeck.

Which isn't a horrible idea for a new player. They are new enough that they might not understand why things are good or bad but if they run a list that has a good track record they can learn the game while not having to worry that the list that they are running is just crap.

Lmao at using IG'S as net decking. It doesn't take rocket science to look at IG and go dang this guy is good and 2 would be even better!

So let me get this straight, you are all for enforcing the rules when it is to your advantage, but have no qualms about asking for your opponent to gift you an opportunity well after the fact. You don't get to play both ways. You get an F for fly casual.

For the record, for the people saying oh it's a casual tournament. Things like this happened all the time at Nationals too and 99% of people are cool with it. The point is no one tiny decision like this definitively determines the result of a game. If you thinking forward in that denying this person an action now will help me win a Dash then you have major problems, as that is premeditation.

The way I play, and most of the people I play with, if the decision is a no brainer, decloaking, FCS, taking an action then it is fine. If I knew exactly what he would do and he didn't do it, it is fair game to complete, most often I will remind them because I want to win on merit, not a technicality. Same goes for attacks if the order is unlikely to matter.

Fly casual. There is a time when missed opportunities are relevant to enforce and this was unfortunately not one.

This reminds me of the episode of Futurama where Hermes escapes from a situation because the other bureaucrat only stamped a form 2 times instead of the required 3 and the head bureaucrat said "You are technically correct, the best kind of correct."

Sometime you can be wrong even though you are technically correct. It does not seem like it had much of an impact one way or the other. Now if it was a situation where he would have bumped or something and he was trying to get his action back it would be one thing. If he would have been able to take the TL anyway, who cares.

What if he has just said "Crap. I forgot my Advanced Sensors..." and let it go at that? Would you have responded with a "Go ahead and take it."? I do understand the "why am I being punished for your mistake" aspect of the situation.

You seem to have issues with people not playing the same way you do. I think it might be less to do with a militant casual, and more to do with your attitude.

This was an extremely pendantic timing issue. Something a newer player may still not have a handle on. Hell, enthusiasm can have this happen even with veteran players.

What you should've done, as the "veteran" player, is to explain the exact timing of Advanced Sensors so he can remember it next time.

If all he'd done was reveal the dial, sure, there's not really a big deal. In the case described here though, he'd already placed the template for the red maneuver in the guides; he knew where his ship was ending up, for sure, and has information about his arc(Target Lock) and the arcs of his opponent's ships that moved before him(Repositioning actions, Evade), giving him a better idea of which action is ideal.

In the first case, who cares. In the second? By placing the template he's gained definite information that can impact what his action would be. And no, I probably wouldn't let that slide.

That's an important point. Some people are very good at judging where their ship will end up just by visualizing the maneuver. This a skill that you really need to play at the highest level, but to those who are not comfortable with this skill yet, placing the template meant he could see exactly where his ship would be. Even though in the end he still mis-judged his arc, in his mind he knew he would have that shot, and that target lock could have been the difference between a miss and a dead TIE.

Again, I'm kind of on the fence here, and in a tournament I wouldn't fault either approach (no, you missed it vs go ahead). What is truly egregious to me is the reaction the opponent had. It just smacks of somebody who will use any edge to try and win, even if they made a mistake.

If I made such a mistake, there are two ways my opponent could handle it. The "Scholar and a Gentleman" approach would let me correct the error, the "Ice Cold Nemesis" will not. Both are great opponents to play for different reasons. The first leads to a relaxing game, very casual. The second forces me to bring my A game, a victory will be sweeter and a defeat will be educational. Sure, sometimes I'm in the mood for a relaxed game, but as long as no one is a jerk, I'm going to enjoy myself.

OP's opponent, however, was kind of a jerk. I'm glad after the game there was little to no tension, but the only lesson that got learned is if he forgets something, he should kvetch until he gets his way.

First, I find it a bit funny that a player who's flown dual AS IG's - a very competitive, and difficult list - multiple times is complaining and giving the "I'm new, this is casual" excuse.

If he had only revealed the dial then did AS actions, that's perfectly acceptable and happens all the time despite not technically being legal. But the fact that he measured the maneuver out obviously biases his decision (i.e. TL vs Focus based on whether the IG is within an arc) and shouldn't have been allowed.

Also, sometimes it's hard to call people out and speak the truth. I've been denied picking up a focus token I had just placed (wanted to boost instead). It was unsettling at first and seemed like a harsh lesson at the time but it's made me a better player and I'm thankful they took the risk of being an arse.

Which is why I'm glad when I hear players say "Whoops I made a mistake... Buuut I'll live with the results because this is practice for tournaments anyway." That kind of mindset is exactly what will make you a better player - not ignored carelessness. We make mistakes and learn from them in casual games so we don't make them in tournaments when they actually count.

Taking a tournament list does not give you an advantage unless you know how to fly it well, plenty of people netdeeck they don't automatically gain the skills to be crowned world champion.

Some people are good at list building others are clueless and emulate others in the hopes it'll help.

Right... but that's not what I'm saying at all. I never said he was skilled or not; and he could very well be new to the game. And yes, of course many people net list right off the bat and perform poorly relative to experienced/talented players. Good lists do, however, give you an advantage on average if your opponent is of equal skill.

But my point was that he chose a net list or (as you rightly pointed out) could have built the list by himself; but at the very least is probably aware the list is really good. He's flown that very competitive list multiple times in the past and again in a tournament setting. Based on OP's description, if I had to place him on a scale between casual and competitive... I would be inclined to place him towards the latter.

If I literally play my first game of X-wing with all the cards necessary to field a dual IG AS list... flying like crap doesn't make me a casual player. And saying "But I thought this was casual" is somewhat ironic. That's all I was what I was chuckling about.

That's a bit harsh to the OP. Especially when the situation described was actually not innocuous. His opponent measured out the Segnor's before deciding the AdvS action. How is that not an advantage?

Considering the S-loop is already red, I don't see how it changes things.

Considering the S-loop is already red, I don't see how it changes things.

Measuring out your Segnor's and knowing where you'll land affects your AdvS decision.

If you know you're going to land in enemy arc, you AdvS focus or evade.

If you know you're going to land out of enemy arc, you AdvS TL.

The situation described is completely innocuous. It's an easy trigger to miss, especially if the game is moving quickly, and (critically) the game state hadn't changed since the trigger. The OP was, if not out of line in a technical sense, enforcing the rules for the sake of rules and not because there was anything depending on the judgment.

.....

So I would have been annoyed, too. I wouldn't have lost my temper over it (or at least I hope not), but I wouldn't be interested in playing another game with the OP, ever.

That's a bit harsh to the OP. Especially when the situation described was actually not innocuous. His opponent measured out the Segnor's before deciding the AdvS action. How is that not an advantage?

Because the action the OP's opponent was trying to take was acquiring a target lock.

You're right that there's a potentially large advantage to putting down the maneuver template, checking the ship's final position, and then declaring an action. I can imagine a way to "cheat", although it's pretty blatant and would work a maximum of once, by doing that and then claiming you should still have the opportunity to barrel roll or boost.

But here, the extra information isn't relevant because the action doesn't change the ship's final position and isn't affected by that final position.

I'm so new I played my first game today!

As a newbie I say:

NO MERCY!!!

You, the experienced gamer, should not be penalized or made to feel like a jerk for my mistakes. Let me suffer the consequences. Frankly, I learn from the mistakes and that improves my gaming. I enjoy evaluating the game and thinking: "How could I have done things differently? I must remember to do that, avoid that and don't forget that next time."

Making decisions, and experiencing the results of those decisions good or bad, are a part of life. If bad decisions, or genuine mistakes, had no consequences then people will grow up believing they can say and do anything. Growth needs lessons, some hard some easy.

Yes this is "just a game" but why should you sacrifice your fun to make some cry baby happy. Tell him to be a man, suck it up, learn from it and quit playing the "I'm new" card every time he makes a bad decision, forgets something or loses.

That's just my "newbie" opinion.

Should we meet around the gaming table I expect no mercy! Show me where I am weak so I can become strong.

The situation described is completely innocuous. It's an easy trigger to miss, especially if the game is moving quickly, and (critically) the game state hadn't changed since the trigger. The OP was, if not out of line in a technical sense, enforcing the rules for the sake of rules and not because there was anything depending on the judgment.

.....

So I would have been annoyed, too. I wouldn't have lost my temper over it (or at least I hope not), but I wouldn't be interested in playing another game with the OP, ever.

That's a bit harsh to the OP. Especially when the situation described was actually not innocuous. His opponent measured out the Segnor's before deciding the AdvS action. How is that not an advantage?

Because the action the OP's opponent was trying to take was acquiring a target lock.

You're right that there's a potentially large advantage to putting down the maneuver template, checking the ship's final position, and then declaring an action. I can imagine a way to "cheat", although it's pretty blatant and would work a maximum of once, by doing that and then claiming you should still have the opportunity to barrel roll or boost.

But here, the extra information isn't relevant because the action doesn't change the ship's final position and isn't affected by that final position.

Yes, but his decision to TL was after pre-measuring. Again, if the opponent knows he will land out of enemy arc, choosing to TL is advantageous over focusing. If the opponent didn't pre-measure the Segnor's, he might have gone the conservative route and Focused. That's one of the inherent risks of AdvS - you have to anticipate where you'll end up and base your choice of action on that. Pre-measuring eliminates that risk.

From the OP: "So last night I was flying a swarm against dual IG's with advanced sensors. He reveals his dial, sets the template down in the front nubs of the ship for a 3 Segnor's, and before he moves the ship he attempts to declare a TL. I don't let him because he has already revealed a dial and measured the maneuver out."