Alright everyone! Please give me your opinions on the 5 weakest characters in block 4 at the moment, and if possible what makes them weak and how we could fix them.

This is just to ballance the game in the up comming months and I would like some community insight.

Jason

I'll probably get crap for this, or maybe I'll be right on the money but here we go.

Lu Chen- Life is the only symbol he can effectively run. But his abilities are too costly for what they do. He also I think takes the game a step back from where it's going. It's an aggro meta and he is anything but aggro. Most of the time, his cards hurt more than help, with stuffing both cardpools full of facedowns, it's hard to play anything.

Zhao Daiyu- I personally think she could be second tier if she had the right support. But that's not the case. Everything she has only works if your opponent is blocking all your attakcs. Which you then remove the block which makes the next block they use easier to play. Unknown Son is nice for her, but her SW support is lacking the push she needs to kill. I'm hoping she gets some more removal in future sets, I love this deck concept, but there is just nothing for it yet.

Cristie- Okay, SSS loop, I know, but that's all she has and consistantly passing 6cc right now is not viable. She has some neat tricks, but I think in the next Tekken set if Eddie shows up, he will make more use of her support than she can.

Ivy- I know she can spam attacks like no one else in the game. But you have to pack your deck with 20+ attacks to make her good. You also have to draw SWS and have Genius Alchemist in play to even garrauntee the spamming. For those of us who DON'T have PotM, she just doesn't have the kill to be competitive in the format.

Yi Shan- I know I will get crap for this, (talking to you lord aggro). But without momentum gen for him, he doesn't work. I've tried building him off earth and life, which life seems to work better, even though earth has the better attacks. And unless you spam attacks to get a couple through, then pop an Iron Thunder to get Striking Thunders and Tiger Fists face up in the momentum, he has no kill. In B3, all his cards were amazing with Felicia, but without the momentum gen, he lacks stability.

I would also have to say that a few other characters lacking are.

Astroth, Siggy, and possibly Zi Mei(She only works if you have Fury of the Ancients, with I'm personally not spending $30 per card)

Not really in any order.

Nina - Neat, but I dont feel is super great ability as it is often made out to be.

JJ - I believe this will be temporary, but right now too squishy without the strongest symbols.

Yi Shan - His mechanic is neat, but without fast momentum, unimpressive.

Cervantes - Neat, but overwhelmingly not great.

White Crane - Impresses me absolutely none, not terrible, but nothing special.

5 weakest? interesting I suppose. Though I do have to disagree.

Yi-shan is not as weak as you think. As I have stated, our boy Philly Cheese from Hanover definately proves this wrong. Yi-shan has a higher learning curve, that is what makes him a tough character to build off of. You have to take time in his build and understand that it will take 'hard' work to get the most out of his card.

Nina has an interesting play mechanic. Due to this, she too is a complicated build. You have to play devious with her. Not a weak character in my book. Will prove that **** soon enough once I manage to build her.

The point- I do not think there is any weak ass characters. Rather there are characters that require a certain unique build to them. In the NOVA Regional, Galford of all characters made top 8. Galford? And should I remind you all of Omar's Voldo, Block 2? There will always be characters that will out shine others just as there will be players with weird ass tastes.

Try White Crane off of life with Lu Chen/Christie/a little Ivy support with Wrath of Heaven and Seigfrieds Earth divide. Good stuff. Thing is White Crane blows up attacks that have double keywords. Throw/combo blown up, Weapon/stun bye bye, Kick/Reversal think not. I tried a life version that did ok that needed fine tuning. But the Chaos version can use certain cards to get more momentum to continue on the lockdown. I tried a Kazuyma support with faithful body card added in. It did ok because I got 4 of White Crane, but if i get 4 Jin's they are going in deck instead of the 3 White Cranes. Being able to fish character cards and put Faithful back in my hand is hella strong. Is it noob easy. No. Does my deck need to be tuned out the wazzoo. Heck yeah. I think potential is there when the next set comes out. Also we need some more chaos cards.

Nina is a card I wouldn't give new players because you have to know what needs to be discarded and what they need to draw and what is going to be used as a check. Without an ability that can ready your character card she isn't obvious aggro. But when you deal with people with sub 18 attacks you can slow down your opponents aggro hardcore. People still running 12 attacks will have the hardest time against her. Match ups against the likes of Christie or Ivy is almost an auto loss for her. She has hope against Astrid because she can make her checks hard and RFG weapon cards. Problem is that you need 4 Ice Picks in the deck. I only have one and I noted if I had more then I would have won at least 2/3rd of the games I lost. I think that Nina has more tricks coming. She is a rich deck to build but if you can its worth it and it can mess with the current meta.

Oh yeah go G-Corp to get the faithful bodyguard back in my hand!

Mt_Do said:

Never said those people are unplayable or anything, the format allows good builds of anyone to thrive.

I just don't think they bring to the table what other charecters have to offer, whether it be from their support, or their abilities.

Also, voldo was never bad, just overloooked, these people are not overlooked, just not special.

failed2k said:

I would ask you then what is required for a card to be worth playing or stand out?

It all falls under opinion. Whence the original post. But what i am trying to say is that it boils down to what you like to play...nuff said.

Astaroth - A solution for a problem that doesn't really exist right now. By the time you let your opponent build enough to make a big enough difference for his damage pump, he's probably already dead.

Temujin - Not enough momentum generation to help with his abilities. His cards make other people better, not necessarily him.

Yi Shan - Another case of his cards make other people better, not necessarily him. Anti-momentum like Mishima Zaibatsu Leader hurts him tremendously.

Christie - Too hard to get working with that vitality. Her combo just isn't going to cut the mustard.

Padma - Yeah, I went there. She just doesn't do enough damage to compete with the 6 HS behemoths out there. The turn she tries to go off she constantly doesn't do enough damage and then she gets destroyed.

Nyobari said:

Hayamachop said:

If you're including Padma's bleed then good on ya, if not... I half block and take like 25 (assuming I'm not Rashotep or whatever else stops cards like padma) then my 6/27+ is still alive, and you're prolly tapped near out.

As for my own:

Astaroth: Made with block 3 in mind, and even then he wasn't that good.

Ivy: If she doesn't have path of the master, she can't do anything

Lu Chen: Neat, but again was built with the slow and monotonus block 3 in mind.

Zhao Dayu: I love her so much, but she's TERRIBLE in the current format. Her whole thing relies on getting blocked... Woo? Also, it's hard to loop Twilight Embrace now. D'oh

Temujin: Dragon Lifter is good, so's his other attack. Temujin unfortunatly is pretty crappy. No momentum gen, and the moving stuff around in his card pool is pretty pointless as you'll be playing for combo anyways

Nyobari said:

I actually think this is perfect.... funny though no character is absolutly aweful in this format

Temujjin: Well I agree his ability isn't too good, but he could work.. Imagine a throw+ Ascending Zephyr+ Mishima Zaibatsu Leader and some card draw to fuel Ascending..

Zhao Daiyu

Astaroth: with most of the game based on attacking as fast as possible he isn't good enough for this format..

And I do not agree with Yi-shan being bad, just a little hard to play right.. Since it requires some thinking to maximize momentum. Othervise a Fun char to play.

I agree with Yi-Shan as I tried playing him, but all of the anti-momentum stuff hurts him tremendously. The problem is that anti-momentum abilities are easy and cheap to use, but Yi Shan has to work hard for his momentum. I had a hard time playing him as he just had a hard time killing the opponent. Once he gets a means to protect his momentum, I think he will be pretty good.

Thing with Yi Shan is balancing how much you are going to use face up momentum buffs and how much pure aggro you can do on your own. I look at the moementum buff as "Good while its here" and not "its always going to be here." After playing a few games with Yi Shan against momentum drain I had to realize that Yi Shan's action cards are required to play him. Not only that you want to play Brazillian Beuaty to get those Iron Thunders out of the card pool so you can go at it again. Lunging Brush fire has also proven to be a worthwhile follow up comboing with striving for perfection. It makes it so that attack that was blocked into useful face up momentum. I think it is a bad idea to use all of Yi Shan's attacks because they all aren't needed for the meta. The low kick and the attack that gives stuns is the only thing I see as required. Everything else is optional. When you move from that point you can fill in other cards that serve you better in the meta to get your kill conditions. With Life's abundence of speed pumps damage is the only minor issue that is left. Built right with some Ivy support you can put more attacks out in a turn for lesser cost and you can pump what you want when you want. Yes you can POTM but who can't. But when you compare Yi Shan against other aggro decks who don't have to setup like him it seems that they are the easier route. I wouldn't say Yi Shan is bad but he is not easy to use and that is what it is coming down to.

Christie

Cervantes (just don't like him)

Those two are the weakest characters in my opinion

But as for everbody saying that Nina is bad just doesn't understand how to play her. Yes she's not a character for a beginner to just start playing with. But, when you learn the support for the other symbols, you will know what to get rid of and what to make your opponnet check. In all honesty, she really doesn't need about 75% of support. Her stuff is much better for a void deck, or in a death Zhao Daiyu deck. Play her off of air, and she is increadably nasty. Between Ice Pick, Law's Sommersault Kick, Zi Mei's wheel kick, and whatever other miscelanious kicks you have in the deck, she can throw three to four attacks a turn from turn two. To do that she needs roughly 16-18 attacks. With cards like Mesmorizing dance, War Between Sisters, and Trained Far and Wide her attacks become very difficult for your opponent to block. Cards like Stand Off, Flexible Body, and Wonderworld Warriors being paired with her own ability keep her alive. I play my own Nina deck based around these principles, and in the month I've been playing her, I have yet to loose a game.

i really dont see why everyone is bashing zhao so hard she really isnt that bad at least from my experiences with her i can destroy 10 cards in my opponents staging area a turn if i get the combo in hand and with ninas discard they wont be blocking Embrace.

The problem is people are trying to hard to make her other support work just let Embrace do all the work and if you happen to RFG a few cards on the way its all for the better

As for the worst characters IMO id say:

Astorath-His Gimmicks are to stop things that arent even in the game right now
Cervantes-Way too many 2cc slow him down from being good
Christe-Even other characters can play her cards better then she can

and then its hard for me to decide whats worse then the others....my meta is pretty weird so i dont know whats really good and whats not there is a good algol decks floating around as is 2 good yi-shans they arent top tier by any means but ive been smacked around by them a few times

#1 Christie - IMO the worst character at the moment. The SSS loop is really the only thing she has going for her, and it's incredibly hard to pull off. You're gonna need life speed pumps like Robes of the Grandmaster Sexy and Tira's Asset and then splash something like For the Money. With an incredibly weak kill condition and her squishy 18 life, she is incredibly hard to pilot successfully.

#2 Lu Chen - Some of his attacks are okay, but nothing impressive. I can see some of his foundations being used as tech cards such as Know When to Talk (just like Won't Settle for Second Best). His symbols are lacking, creating virtually no playability. It is possible to run him off of Life, but other characters can do that better.

#3 Temujin - He has a really awesome ability, but cannot make much use of it because of the lack of momentum generation available. His combo cards such as Dragon Lifter and Dragon's Flame are awesome, but other people (such as Cassie) make better use of of them.

#4 Algol - He is very unique, but I feel as if he is lackluster. He has very neat assets, which I think is really one of the only things he has going for him. His hand swap-esque ability is very cool, but doesn't even work out half of the time. Although his attacks aren't too impressive, his foundations are awesome. He seems like he would do decent, but when his opponent sides in Martial Arts Champion, it tends to become an uphill battle for him.

#5 Astaroth - With the meta being as fast as it is now, his abilities don't make him worth it. I feel like Astaroth is a really good sideboard character, but not good enough overall to front. There are only a couple decks in the format now that like to sit back, try to stall, and play foundations for 4 straight turns and then go for an OTK. Astaroth counters those decks really well, but like I said, he's not worth fronting because only a couple of those archtypes are in the format right now.

Mt_Do said:

Yo, not to be a jerk or anything, but the point is for everyone to just state their opinion. So this isn't really the kind of thread where you need to convince people that their view isn't right. Funny, enough, I personally share the same opinions you stated (especially about my girl, Nina). I also agree that most all of the characters are fairly playable.

As for the original request, my choice for 5 weakest are:

5. Cervantes - Although his first response is better than you'd think, the second R isn't nearly as great as it would seem.

4. Algol - His primary intended kill condition is telegraphed, even though he has access to one of the most underrated cards in the new standard: Pseudo-Soul Edge

3. Kazuya Mishima - Surprised? You shouldn't be if you've played as him and faced a staging area chock full o' Killer Androids. He obviously has amazing potential, but has to pay the ultimate price for his form. His enhance, on the other hand is great and a huge reason why most wouldn't think of putting him on this list.

2. Christie Monteiro - She has access to 2 of the 4 best resources in the game now and a 7 card handsize. How does she not work? Well, she's surprisingly slow for having such a large handsize. Mostly though, she's really fragile in a time where blocks aren't so great. Having access to Water isn't doing her any favors either.

1. Astaroth - The worst of the lot. Considering he's defensively solid and has access to fire, he's similar to Christie in that it doesn't seem (on paper) to belong here. As is the case with most creatures made of rock and volcanic rock (?), he's a bit out of his element. He stands head and shoulders over all those who would seek to hack his control checks...but said opponents are scarce.

I officially love this thread; people realize that Yi Shan** is solid here.

On the subject of momentum hate, it really sucks to play against, but it can be overcome. I've fought Nina Williams* with multiple copies of War Between Sisters out, and gutted out wins. How, you ask? Atoning for the Past is absolutely godly against it, allowing you to rev up momentum at a moment's notice. Maniacal Laughter combined with Tieh Lei also helps out a ton if you used them on the attack after the War Between Sisters R is played. Most importantly, though, is that the only commit "protection" available to the momentum-hate symbols is Perfect Sense of Balance , and that doesn't hurt you all that much, so Stun the living hell out of them and you should be fine. Also, use static pumps ( Brooding , The Man Behind the Mask ) to stay ahead of the damage race.

As far as Nina Williams* goes, she is annoying as all hell. If you have key pieces that make your deck a lot better ( Gay Vamps and Switching Weapon Styles for Ivy* , among other), she will wreak havoc with you. Steal Kazuya Mishima* 's character-specific support ( Merciless Fighter , Spinning Demon , The Hunt is On ), add some character blocks and momentum generators ( Treacherous Offspring , Maniacal Laughter ), and you have yourself a kill condition. After that, add as many of Death 's tricks as you can, and enjoy. Her F is absolutely infuriating, especially because you can use it to actively deny your opponent drawing attacks to kill you or foundations to build, depending on the deck or the situation. She's good, but you're gonna have to search for a kill condition in someone else's stuff.

As for my list, here it comes:

1. Christie Monteiro* - Low vitality, some wonky support at best (with Fruit Picker being the real standout), and a very limited theme in kicks (where The Boot and Fruit Picker are the only ones above 4 damage, which really blows, since the SSS loop just doesn't work very well). She's just the weakest character out there right now, no questions about it.

2. As taroth* - A character created to combat the turtling, CC-hacking, meta of old, his abilities are either obsolete or overshadowed by characters who are just plain better at it ( Bryan Fury* and Ragnar** spring to mind). So yeah, he's kind of out of place in the current game.

3. Lu Chen** - He's just not suited for the pace of NewFS ; his abilities are too costly to be used with any regularity, he is completely generic on offense in symbols that just don't offer him any real pumping for his attacks (outside of speed). To boot, his support is divided between the Reversal theme and the face-down card theme, so you only have 4 solid attacks available ( Chi Disruptor , Gut Drill , Leaping Snap Kick , and Lu Chen's Palm Strike , with the best one among them probably being the one that DIDN'T show up in his support). I am very disappointed in this character, needless to say.

4. Algol* - He has a pretty good hand "flush" ability... and a weird sort of "control" ability (?). His support's standouts are Alphard Maliki (4 diff, 6 damage, off-zone throw? Sweet), Body of Souls , and Controller of Souls . His kill condition is: (a) hard to set up; (b) will have a solid boost in the best of situations; and © is preceded two attacks that will more than likely present no threat whatsoever, leaving you free to block it. So yeah...

5. Zhao Daiyu** - Can you say "one-trick pony"? Her vitality loss abilities are cute, but not common enough to be established as an actual kill condition. So that basically leaves you with Twilight Embrace and Body of Souls as a kill move, and guess what? Everyone and their neighbor can see that 4H7 attack coming, and it needs to actually hit to deal its damage and be recycled. So good luck hitting with it; you're gonna need it if you wanna win.

Again, no character is AWFUL (well, maybe Christie Monteiro* ...) but these are the most limited ones in my opinion.

Oh, and NoobFighterFTW , YOU LIE!!!