I think all fleets are likely to bid low for initiative, and I think the payoff is equally large for any fleet. That last+first activation bonus is enormous, no matter which ship/s are using it.

We'll leave the houserules discussion where it is for the moment, Lyraeus seems to have an allergic reaction to them

I think all fleets are likely to bid low for initiative, and I think the payoff is equally large for any fleet. That last+first activation bonus is enormous, no matter which ship/s are using it.

I think the intiative bids will continue to vary with the fleet and player. For example, I bid 300 points at a tournament last Sunday since I had a rebel fleet that didn't mind going second.

I was given first player in two games (maybe because I didn't mind going second lol), and came first in the tournament.

Now on the other hand, if I had taken a Demolisher and Gladiator fleet, I'd have made it somewhere between 280 and 291.

I think all fleets are likely to bid low for initiative, and I think the payoff is equally large for any fleet. That last+first activation bonus is enormous, no matter which ship/s are using it.

We'll leave the houserules discussion where it is for the moment, Lyraeus seems to have an allergic reaction to them

You would be wrong. The Nationals champ came in at 298 and did not care about first or second.

Oh come on, one fleet from one event, when we're still on wave one, is hardly a sufficient sample size and you know it.

@MattShadowlord: Fair enough. A low ship-count fleet is less likely to be able to get the last activation anyway, so it doesn't care so much about first player.

One example in wave one is hardly a reason to change the dynamic of the game.

Did you know that some players don't do well going second? Me for example, every time I have been second player I have lost horribly. I have not figured out why yet but it is a thing. So to combat this I use the bid to make sure I am first player.

Video to prove my point. 3 important capital ships versus 2 rebel capital ships.

Lyraeus, darlin', there's 3 rebel capitals there: 1 Nebulon-B, and 2 CR90's That and it might have been due to the fact that ISD's sliiiightly outgun CR90's.

On topic, I don't necessarily disagree. There should be something of an advantage, but I do think that at 130 days they can 'fix it' if there's a problem, even if I'm not certain there is. Changes to the auto-lose condition for losing all ships but having full squadrons (and getting a full 300 points, no less: even if I only took 291) is a borderline issue. That said, how many of these issues would exist without Screed and Demolisher? I use Tarkin and a gladiator (often, but not always Demolisher) semi-frequently and I don't hear any complaints. First or second doesn't concern me unduly.

I'm far more irritated that my local meta has switched from a glorious balance of people trying out their combinations, to net listing Screed+Demo+Glad+ACM's hold the fighters. Mind you, they would have done that regardless of the list that won. But in the end, it's just a matter of 'hurry up and wait' until Q4.

I have a tournament Saturday and I expect a host of net lists.

I have a tournament Saturday and I expect a host of net lists.

It's always sad to me in one way, makes me happy in others. If I'm being selfish, the net listers are great. I know what to practice against and can prepare my own list to be a counter (while still being good in general (hopefully)) and potentially something they haven't seen and prepared for.

If I'm not being selfish, it just makes me sad to see the lack of creativity.

I have a tournament Saturday and I expect a host of net lists.

It's always sad to me in one way, makes me happy in others. If I'm being selfish, the net listers are great. I know what to practice against and can prepare my own list to be a counter (while still being good in general (hopefully)) and potentially something they haven't seen and prepared for.

If I'm not being selfish, it just makes me sad to see the lack of creativity.

I have a tournament Saturday and I expect a host of net lists.

It's always sad to me in one way, makes me happy in others. If I'm being selfish, the net listers are great. I know what to practice against and can prepare my own list to be a counter (while still being good in general (hopefully)) and potentially something they haven't seen and prepared for.

If I'm not being selfish, it just makes me sad to see the lack of creativity.

I don't really blame people for copying the better ideas to come out of the maelstrom of online discussion, especially with the game being so new and the options far more limited than they will be. There are only 2 imperial ships

So for instance, Screed and an ACM Demolisher is just such a good combo that it very quickly over took other options people tried like Motti and Gladiators with Expanded Launchers. The ACM Demolisher with Engine Techs and Wulff was a further creative refinement of that, and I'd expect to see plenty of them.

Fortunately list building is only a small part of the game and player skill should trump it.

I have a tournament Saturday and I expect a host of net lists.

I use net lists for X-Wing and Armada as a general guide. I may tweak something here or there to fit my playstyle though. I just don't enjoy putting lists together and I never have. It is a big reason why I got out of TCG/LCG games. I take my enjoyment from playing the game itself instead. I used to feel bad about netdecking but at this point I've accepted that it isn't really a big deal. I'm not doing it to try and get one up on my competitor or anything I just don't enjoy the list building portion. There was a guy that put an 80 some page guide together with the popular X-Wing lists awhile back it was awesome.

This scenario will be easily fixed in wave 2. Add General Rieekan to the fray and the Yavaris will be able to retaliate (including B-wing strikes) against the Demolisher before it is destroyed. So the imperial player is effectively trading 88 points versus 69 points. Not bad if you ask me.

Babs out!

This scenario will be easily fixed in wave 2. Add General Rieekan to the fray and the Yavaris will be able to retaliate (including B-wing strikes) against the Demolisher before it is destroyed. So the imperial player is effectively trading 88 points versus 69 points. Not bad if you ask me.

Babs out!

I was going to enthusiastically agree, but had another look at how it might affect one of the specific scenarios we've been discussing in this thread; the one where the Demolisher would get to move last and activate first in the following turn. (This is still a very likely scenario when playing the majority of squadron-heavy lists posted online, including those on this forum)

Yes Riekan could be good, in fact depending how his rules really work he could be GREAT, but for his impact on the scenario have a look at the last 2 pictures below:

I've combined the additional range that not being required to get a side arc gives with the idea Ficklegreendice was mentioning about using more Bwings to counter things like Gladiators, and generated some more images showing how the ranges interact with one another.

Example 3 - New set up:
The Demolisher and Yavaris are now starting their turns even further apart; about one and a half full range rulers, or range 7.5 apart.

Two Bwings have been placed as far forward as possible at the very edge of the Yavaris' command range, while also being as close to the incoming ship as possible.



However, measuring for range shows that if they were ordered from their position at the most extreme range from the Yavaris directly towards the enemy ship, they still won't be able to reach it.


No huge surprises so far, Bwings are slow and squadron commands are short, but the important thing is to note that the Yavaris and Bwing combination are not able to lauch an attack at this range.

Therefor we will assume the Bwings are not activated, and instead remain in their intial position.

The Yavaris' guns are far out of range so it simply moves forward, at a slow speed 1, keeping its front to the enemy.




The Demolisher uses the luxury of a ship-heavy fleet playing a squadron-heavy opponent to activate last, and moves forward at speed 3.



It then does an additional movement 1 using Engine Techs, in a straight line, adding two ticks of yaw at the end.



The Demolisher has now leapt into close range of the Yavaris, with quite a bit to spare, and has a side arc shot at the enemy. Bwings get pushed along, and will be able to fire (the first double hit would probably be braced and at least 1 damage redirected).



With Assault Concussion Missiles the Demolisher can strip the side shields while inflicting damage on the front, and due to reasons of initiative-bid discussed earlier in this thread the Demolisher should be the first activation of the next turn, easily killing the yavaris.

With its job done, it leaves the scene of the crime and heads towards the next Rebel ship. The Bwings should have managed a decent shot against it at the end of the previous turn, but unfortunately it's possible this was their only shot of the game.




Conclusions:
It isn't a given, but it is definitely possible for a Demolisher to start a turn at an extreme distance and get into short range of a Nebulon without being attacked by the nebulon's guns.
It is possible for a Demolisher to get to short range of the carrier ship before ever being in range of activated BWings.
It's not at all unrealistic to expect a Demolisher to kill the Yavaris before the Yavaris gets to do it's double tap activation.

The difference Riekan would make is to ensure the Yavaris is still there to activate and fire its weapons, so imagine the ship remains in position in the last image. This is a Big Deal, and its impact highlighted by the scenario where a ship can be nuked in a single turn.

The issue is that the demolisher has not just fired, but also moved before the Yavaris. The Squadrons should be in range to be activated, a huge advantage over the previous scenario where they were stranded in space, but it's probably unrealistic to expect they will get the double tap range for a comparable level of retalliation.

Also is it just me or does Riekan seem to promote a ship-heavy build over a squadron-orientated one? As does Admiral Akbar. And Mon Mothma. And obviously Garm Iblis.

Come to think of it, they have that in common with Motti. And definitely Screed and Tarkin.

It would be nice to have a squadron oriented commander that more directly effects squads

Now that you point out the admirals it strikes me that squadrons were feared to be overpowered in testing and the put the 1/3 rule in and took out some squadron support. It would make sense. From a design standpoint, I'd rather keep towards the side favoring ships (the point of the game) and stay away from making things too squadron centric (the point of their very successful game) knowing I could always add in the squadron support back in little chunks.

Once again, this is definitely not a good scenario to compare Squadron-based *fleets* with Squadron-less *fleets*.

The scenario shows that a Demolisher with ACM is dangerous and this comes at no surprise.

But in terms of faction design, the Rebel and Impérial Fleets are balanced very differently, which makes a 1v1 match up between a Neb and a Glad not that teaching, especially when you are trying to analyze the difference between Squadrons in fleets and no Squadrons.

Imperial ships are much more autonomous than Rebel ships, and even the Demolisher is no exception. Even without Engineer Techs it makes a capable small Carrier ship, thanks to a bargain bin points-to-stats ratio. You also don't need to upgrade it to get the most out of it due to being already efficient.

Rebels ships on the other hand need to be specialized in a role and stick to it, providing support and synergy to other ships. A Rebel fleet is only as strong as the synergetical chain between its ships.

The OPs example shows clearly that as soon as the chain is broken (aka one ship is alone and unsupported) it won't last long. Nebs in Rebel Fleets clearly aren't meant to tank because of the way the sides are weak, no redirects and no defensive upgrades.

The Nebs purely fit the damage dealing role in Rebel Fleets and need to be properly supported to do that effectively.

Taking the Yavaris as an example, we all know the combo with Adar Tallon.

Just imagine Luke being activated first by a Corvette with Tallon, moved into position and firing, then being reactivated by Yavaris for an average of 3 damage straight to the Hull regardless of the Shields. And that doesn't include what the face up cards could do.

Now, one might day that we're talking about at least 69 points of upgrades (including an extra CR90B) on top of the Yavaris to make this work, and saying it's not a fair comparison to the lone Demolisher and he would be right. But the Factions' Balance is so different that a straight up brawling match isn't the best way to compare.

Imperial ships work independently alongside one another (of course they'll support one another, but they don't boost each other), Rebels ships *have* to work together to be effective or the fleet will crumble.

___

If you want to make a scenario to compare Squadron based Fleets and squadron less Fleets, how about you pit 2 VSDs together, each worth 100 points with upgrades (including squadrons). One being a Carrier and the other one a ship to ship damage dealer.

I'm sure that this would be a fair and interesting match up !

Doing a comparison between two ships of the same class would be interesting, but it probably shouldnt be victories since they are the easiest ship in the game to use squadrons against.

AF2's would be interesting but i bet the squadron-less one will win. Could even do two v two to better simulate multipe arc options/the use of gunnery teams.