12 Pictures of a Demolisher Eating a Yavaris

As part of my contribution to the Ship-heavy vs Squadron-heavy debate, I have put together some images showing a very simple engagement between two of the most commonly cited ships: the Yavaris and the Demolisher. This does not contain rocket-science tactics or anything revolutionary like that - in fact, it's almost the opposite because I am trying to illustrate how sometimes the simpler ship which requires simpler tactics can also be the more powerful.

• Nebulon-B Escort (Common build: Raymus, Yavaris =69pts)
• Also shown: Xwing, Awing, Bwing (38pts)
• Gladiator 1 (Common build: Demolisher, Wulff Yularen, Engine Techs, Assault Concussion Missiles =88pts)

The Yavaris starts its turn far away (about distance 7) from the Demolisher



The squadrons are in range for orders, and out of the Yavaris' path.



Option 1: If Squadrons attack at long range
The Yavaris can give an order to the X and Awing, allowing them to move and shoot into the front of the Demolisher this turn



XWing and AWing move in to attack (probably causing 1 or 2 damage, 1 of which is probably redirected left).



However if they move into range 1 of the Demolisher, even if they stay as far back from it and as much in its direct path as possible, the Demolisher will be able to move past them at Speed 3. This will leave them stranded for the next turn -
1) Outside of the Yavaris' command order range
2) Not in range to fire without a command
2) Unable to force the Demolisher to crash into them in order to get pushed along by it



This means that the Yavaris' owner should not send them forward, and would almost always want to hold them back for this turn in order to get a double tap off next turn and have them in command range.
This was not an optimal play, so now we look at option 2.

Option 2: IF Squadrons are held back in Command range
The squadrons don't move yet. The Yavaris is well out of attack range, and just moves forward at speed 1 (the popular 'slow roll forward' use by Nebulon players).



The Demolisher begins its turn, moving forward at speed 3



It then does an Engine Tech move to add an additional speed 1. This puts the Yavaris easily inside black dice range for a side shot (4 black dice, and if this is the most common build they are boosted by ACM which is then boosted by Screed). Provided the side can get an angle (not difficult with Engine Techs) the front arc won't be firing. In many instances the front would have fired its 2 red dice earlier, since engagements don't always begin at such extreme range.



The Yavaris can be expected to suffer heavy damage, use its Brace, and still lose its shield and some hull from the side, and possibly front and rear shields. I say possibly, because there is a case to be made for allowing a normal crit to go through to hull -- if the Demolisher is going to move before the Yavaris next turn, it can pretend this Redirectless ship doesn't have any other facings, and simply blow it away with all the other shields left intact.
The lack of redirect is such a weakness that the ACM are pretty much redundant. #firstworldproblems



End of turn, the X and Awing get to fire, the Bwing gets to move. If the Bwing was on this side and the Awing on the other then damage to the Demolisher would be slightly higher, but either way the Demolisher will brace/redirect/walk it off. The real pain is expected to come next turn when Yavaris orders the legendary double tap....



...except of course that Gladiator lists are uniquely incentivised to go first, and almost always underbid Yavaris (or frankly, any rebel, or in fact any other Imperial) lists, so it will casually erase the Nebulon before the rebels activate.

With screed guaranteeing a Hit/Crit and two sets of 4 dice to roll, the conundrum for the Demolisher's owner is whether to try kill the target with the front gun in order to save a side shot for the fighters, or kill it with the side gun and try shoot something else from the front. If there is a chance the front can do it that's probably the best choice, but the destruction is so close to guaranteed that again this falls in to the category of #firstworldproblems



With the Yavaris erased, the Demolisher blasts off with another 3 +1 move, leaving the uncommanded squadrons far behind.



The squadrons can now buzz around trying to plink an occasional shield, but the Demolisher and its star destroyer allies now just need to kill the other Rebel ship and call it a day.

Why does the Demolisher get to move after the Nebulon?
Because the ship heavy fleet has more activations than the squadron heavy one, so has much more control over which ships move in which order.

Why does the Demolisher get to shoot before the Nebulon activates?
Because the Gladiator fleet is massively incentivised to underbid points for initiative; the Squadron heavy fleet wants to maximise its squadron count. If the Squadron fleet underbids to gain intiative it generally gains far less.

Why does the Demolisher get to set up in position to easily chase a Yavaris?
Having more ships means that the Demolisher can be set up last, and get a good bead on its potential first target. Rookie Rebels might have put down the Yavaris as their 2nd drop - I suggest deploying squadrons instead to delay this. Experienced rebels will put down a squadron after their first ship, then delay the Yavaris until after the last Imperial ship.
However, squadrons are SO command dependent and the command range so short that the Yavaris is likely to be near the deployed squadrons. The Demolisher owner should be able to make an educated guess, or base that guess on objectives, or get it completely wrong after the Rebel deploys their Nebulon far away.
In which case, the Imperial sends 3 ships vs a single AFII, for a smaller but fairly certain win.

Why can't the Nebulon just stay further out of range?
Apart from the fact the ships didn't actually start their turns close together, there are at least four problems with the idea of 'just stay further away'.
1) The Nebulon needs to be close to its squadrons; the command ranges are pretty short
2) The Nebulon wants front arc for its guns; that means pointing (and thus moving) towards the enemy
3) The Nebulon doesn't want to expose its sides; that usually means pointing towards the enemy
4) The Demolisher with Engine Tech is superb at pursuit. Forget Soontir, it is by far the game's best interceptor and due to the initiative incentivization and activation advantage is likely to be able to do TWO sets of 3+1 moves after the Nebulon's move, and then fire its black dice.

What if there were more Bwings, Keyan, placed better, a bigger gap between the Ships, better angles for the Yavaris, and Paul Heaver, Sir Francis Drake or a better player piloting them?
Things might have worked out differently. Really though, with equal player skill on both sides I think the advantage lies with the Imperial, and the gap between the two fleet builds is huge.

Why do you hate Squadrons so much?
Seriously? I can't even believe I had the cheek to ask myself that! I don't, I love them, they are fantastic and a tremendously thematic part of Star Wars:Armada. I'd love to see them in every game, and would hate to see them drop out of competitive play.
As my credentials as a squadron-fan, I submit a photo of what I am doing with my own. The Awings even have those little blue lines on them!

I rest my case.

However, I don't think that pretending they are the best use of points in an activation-dependent game that prices Squadron Commands at the same cost as repairing hull, navigating or adding additional shots is the best approach.

Add to this the way having even a full 100pts of Squadrons remaining on the table vs one enemy Corvette is an instant loss, the way objectives are clearly tilted towards Ships over squadrons, and way the short range of the Squadron command (which is not free; if you want some perspective, it is costing you about a hull point's worth of repair every time you use it!) forces fragile ships to be closer to the enemy than they would prefer to be and it's not surprising they're not the most competitive choices.
(If anyone from FFG reads this, I recommend playtesting with Squadron Command activation changed to long range, for a start)

What do you recommend?
Buy a Gladiator - lol just kidding. Play the game the way you like; if you want squadrons take them; you can win a lot of games with them, even vs Gladiator heavy opponents, and if you feel you are at a disadvantage in doing so you have the right to savour every victory!
If you use Yavaris or weak carriers, deploy them as late as possible, and have a plan for this in advance.

In my opinion FFG do some of the best, most balanced games in the world, but even they don't always get everything perfect first time (advanced, phantoms). But don't be shy squadron-lovers, not everyone saw the problem with the Phantom at first, and it took a while for it to be fixed.

The overpowered phantom and the underpowered tie-advanced did get fixed though.

Two things;

1) While this is a very strong analysis of this one scenario, it's a very strong analysis of this one scenario.

2) Your squadrons are painted beautifully. Bravo!

Why is Yavaris going at speed 1?

Good breakdown:)

Why is Yavaris going at speed 1?

It's the common early game speed for Nebulons (often boosted to 3 to get past the enemy later). I think it is also worth noting that any higher speed of approach by the Nebulon would have made this Demolisher's attack easier, not harder.

If the Yavaris moved at speed 2, the Demolisher wouldn't have needed to use Engine Techs, and if it moved at speed 3 the Demolisher would have been able to fire red dice before moving, then attack with black dice in range one, again without using Engine Techs OR worse, if the Yavaris was reduced to 1 HP the Demolisher would have had the option to ram using Engine Techs after it finished firing.

1) While this is a very strong analysis of this one scenario, it's a very strong analysis of this one scenario.

Thanks, I think the inclusion of images helps -particularly with the demonstration of how if the Fighters are launched for an Alpha Strike at long range, which is often mentioned as a counter to Gladiators and similar ships, they are probably stranded for the next turn.

It's definitely an visual explanation of what happens on the tabletop with Demolisher and Nebs.

A few comments as a mainly Rebel player, to make the comparison fair :

1) The Neb was poorly deployed and maneuvered. It should always orient its front to any ship that is coming for it fast. I don't care it's wasting side arcs shots, that's definitely not the role of a Neb B. Had it just banked right 1 in your example, it would have been much harder for the Demolisher to get easy side arcs shots. Not saying it is impossible but much more difficult due to the fornt hull zone blocking the other ones. If you expose the side arcs of a Neb B, you deserve its destruction, that's as simple as that.

2) Yavaris would have never thrown the fighters up knowing there was a Demolisher coming up. Fighters do not prevent ships from coming, unless they are where the ship is wanting to end. Yavaris with a B-Wing escort that stayed within range 1 of where the Demolisher would have come would be a serious threat for the Demolisher and probably killed it in one or two turns, just like it did for my game yesterday with double B-Wing activation. In your second example, you had the Fighters on an Interception trajectory vs the Demolisher instead of the B-Wings, so much that the latter had to move to shoot and thus get no benefit from the Yavaris. That's a mistake no experienced Yavaris player will make

3) Rebels ships aren't meant to go 1vs1 with Imperial ships. They have very specific roles in Rebel fleets, while Imperial ships have both the firepower and the resilience to be played with relative autonomy. The Neb B is a long range damage dealer, and in order for it to perform that role well it requires frontline ships to draw fire away from it. Which means AFMK2s (tanky or not) or tanky Corvettes with ECM (and probably engineering team).

4) It's no question that the Demolisher is the ship that require the simpler tactics and that is is more powerful on a 1 to 1 basis compared to Yavaris (and I'm not saying that to be condescending to Imperial players at all, Imperial ships are much more straightforward than Rebels and it's absolutely fine). Think of Rebel ships like Imperial Squadrons : you need a chain of proper support in the Rebel fleet, much like you need a chain of bonus giving ships in an Imperial squadron wing.

Your example is like doing the math between throwing an X-Wing at a TIE Interceptor squadron : even with counter, the X-Wing will probably kill the TIE in one or two turns and be still kicking after that. But, throw in a TIE Advanced or a TIE Fighter and now the TIE Interceptor becomes more deadly overall.

Not only does your example prove that (obviously) Demolisher will win a straight up match against a Neb, but it also proves my theory that Rebel ships should be built to perform an extremely specific role in a fleet that synchronizes well with other specialized ships in the fleet.

To prove that even further, try comparing a single Demolisher with a single AFMK2 of various equipment. I'm 100% sure that in that scenario, neither the Demolisher nor the AFMK2 kills one another before they fly away from each other. Hinting at the AFMK2 as mainly a strong tank with off damage support, so that it can draw fire away from the more damaging damage dealers of the Rebel fleet (Neb Bs and Corvettes specced for damage).

EDIT : I'm not trying to diminish the value of your point, because as I said what you described is the cold hard logic with a Gladiator and a Nebulon B in a straight up brawnling match. This is where fleet building and fleet strategy come to play, and it is much more important for the Rebels than for the Empire

Does a 3G1V player always want to go first/take initiative or rather go second?

What do you do against a player who sets up the AF to flank and 2 Nebs in front for fire arcs? I've had gladiators mowed down in a single turn.

What do you recommend as the best additions for a Gladiator spam build? Engine Techs over ACM? ACM over Intel Officer?

Does a 3G1V player always want to go first/take initiative or rather go second?

What do you do against a player who sets up the AF to flank and 2 Nebs in front for fire arcs? I've had gladiators mowed down in a single turn.

What do you recommend as the best additions for a Gladiator spam build? Engine Techs over ACM? ACM over Intel Officer?

Specialize its ship for a very specialized role that isn't antagonist to its platform. Corvettes can be specialized efficiently in different roles (tank with ECM + Engineering Team, long range skirmisher with Enhanced Armaments and Engine Tech, Precision attackers with H9, Debuff with with CR90B and Overload Pulse/Dodonna's Pride), Neb B are long range damage dealers over time, and AFMK2 are mainly tanks that do combined damage with both gunnery and fighters.

Does a 3G1V player always want to go first/take initiative or rather go second?

What do you do against a player who sets up the AF to flank and 2 Nebs in front for fire arcs? I've had gladiators mowed down in a single turn.

What do you recommend as the best additions for a Gladiator spam build? Engine Techs over ACM? ACM over Intel Officer?

1: yes, always do first player

2: have multiple ships enter fireing range at the same time or avoid the engagement, alternatively you could have a engine tech glad linger off the flank and wait untill a victory has engaged to come screaming in with those missiles

3:generally I consider engine techs best for gladiators in order to set up close range shots, then acms and definitely take acms over intel officer since acms practically ignore defense tokens anyway

Lol, thanks for the info. Yeah, I should have thought that over again. I made the silly logick of thinking it was better to go second. Learned my lesson.

Now, if you have 3v3, where you have no squads and he has a few... do you still take initiative?

^{still relatively new to this game let me ask one thing to the "imperial player" since you bid for initiative, when presented with the following 3 objectives which is you best choice against a rebel fleet with 3 cap ships and a full 100 points of fighters, Opening salvo, fire lanes, or superior positions? I ask because it seems like objectives get overlooked not a lot but enough that a list built solely on their focus might be able to win significantly I just haven't figured out how yet. As a side note if you were taking above rebel fleet which objectives would you chose?}

Now, if you have 3v3, where you have no squads and he has a few... do you still take initiative?

^{still relatively new to this game let me ask one thing to the "imperial player" since you bid for initiative, when presented with the following 3 objectives which is you best choice against a rebel fleet with 3 cap ships and a full 100 points of fighters, Opening salvo, fire lanes, or superior positions? I ask because it seems like objectives get overlooked not a lot but enough that a list built solely on their focus might be able to win significantly I just haven't figured out how yet. As a side note if you were taking above rebel fleet which objectives would you chose?}

If I was running my vvg build I would definitely chose firelanes because I have more overall firepower, if I was running my vg rhymer ball I would pick superior positions

I would probably avoid opening salvo but I would consider it if I had 3 ships

Mof hit a few things already. This is a great example of the danger posed by Demolisher but lacks what to do about it.

Against my lists you are likely to have your choice of first or second player. But then you have a choice of most wanted, hypespace assault and minefields. Presumably you choose minefields and then you don't get to run my flank unmolested. Choosing either of the other two is really bad for you.

Next off, you don't go last. I've been running 3 Nebs and a Cr-90 long before no ships became a thing. (Sometimes goes 2 and 2 depending upon what upgrades and squadrons I want.

Next, I will be jockeying to have you enter long range the turn before you come in close. I start with nav commands to turn them into tokens just for this purpose. I will go to speed two in order to accomplish this. If you're already running at speed 2 or 3 and I began at 1, I have advantage in the jockeying (slower player has advantage)

But suppose I fail at that, I still have Yavris flanked by 2 support refit (or a CR-90 depending on list). So you don't get a shot at Yavris because it's last to go, further back, and cheaper ships block you. So you attack one of them instead. Then Yavris goes.

if I'm running Yavaris I usually come with 4 Bs and an A or X. So the turn you close, Yavaris does go after you double tapping two B-wings which I will have properly prepositioned at least 2 of them. If a third or fourth squadron are in position they'll fire during the squadron phase.

So I've done at least 4 blue, 4 black dice to you plus whatever arc Yavris had on you and then any remaining squadrons. Then you probably finish the escort and fly away. Whether you die will be up to positioning of my squadrons and whether they can finish you. And whether I positioned my CR-90 with this in mind to finish you.

It's by no means guaranteed for me. But it's a far better picture than you paint.

I like the effort in the breakdown, but there's a huge problem

if you're going 1v1 yavaris v demolisher, you've already lost and it has nothing to do with squadrons

Problem #1: Yavaris is a neb. Nebs are not good straight-up combat ships because their dominant arc (front) is small and their weak arcs (side) are wide

Problem #2: Yavaris is far cheaper than demolisher. Base costs already have a 4 point difference (Escort + yavaris = 62, GSD-1 + demolisher = 66) and that's before the auto-include ACM (11 point difference)

proper use of Yavaris, a very support orientated ship, is to cover her with other ships so demolisher doesn't hit her. Then, you cover the other ships with Yavaris' squadrons.

Demolisher, by contrast, is perhaps the most independent ship in the game (seriously, move then shoot does wonders for its flexibility; dude can go anywhere)

This is personally why I don't enjoy the Haven + Yavaris build (only two ships! and neither want to be anywhere near demolisher). At 300 points, you can include Yavaris and enough squadrons with either 2 other Nebs or 1 other Neb and 2 Cr-90as.

@FGD, that's exactly what I was thinking. BUT, so long as we're throwing ships and squads out into a vacuum, this inspired me to try another scenario

Dodonna's pride CR90B + adar tallon + advanced projectors + leading shots + Luke Skywalker x-wing (treating this fighter as an upgrade!)

VS

Demolisher GLAD I + Wulf + Engine techs + ACM

Which comes out to 85 reb vs 88 imp.

If you spam squad commands from the pride while boosting at SPD 4, you get two shield-bypassing blacks per turn from luke in addition to the auto face-ups from the Pride. Keeping in mind that squadron commands are AT and not WITHIN, it's not all that hard to keep away from the demolisher- at least, long enough to fry the demolisher with little/no damage received. Also, as I'm sure most of you know, that if you position a fighter dead ahead of a ship just a little under distance 1, you might not get overrun, but you WILL get another shot at the rear even at a speed 4 or engine tech'd speed 3 ship, giving the Pride the freedom to disengage for a turn or two if necessary while Luke is still pumping in that shield-bypassing black.

I agree that this fairly flawed. You have to deal with: a list, on a board, with obstacles, and objectives; there's simply no other way to evaluate the power of anything without a full game, in Armada.

I agree that this fairly flawed. You have to deal with: a list, on a board, with obstacles, and objectives; there's simply no other way to evaluate the power of anything without a full game, in Armada.

Demolisher is probably the best single ship in Armada at the moment and most likely will be always near the top. Sort of like howlrunner in x-wing. But like howlrunner, Demolisher will eventually find its counters.

My thinking is that with wave 2 going to 400 points and rebels getting the MC-30, we won't see quite the same disparity and have to work quite as hard to counter Demolisher as we do now. The more ships in the Rebel fleet the more they can screen the vulnerable support ships and use total fleet synergy to their advantage.

I think anyone pointing out how flawed the OP was is kinda missing the point.

We all know that OP is laying out an unrealistic view of the game state but it aptly demonstrates the dangers of playing against Demolisher.

What we have now got is loads of great posts advising players how to beat Demolisher or play around it.

New players will be able to read this and gain knowledge.

Great thread so far otherwise!

I think anyone pointing out how flawed the OP was is kinda missing the point.

We all know that OP is laying out an unrealistic view of the game state but it aptly demonstrates the dangers of playing against Demolisher.

What we have now got is loads of great posts advising players how to beat Demolisher or play around it.

New players will be able to read this and gain knowledge.

Great thread so far otherwise!

It's definitely an visual explanation of what happens on the tabletop with Demolisher and Nebs.

A few comments as a mainly Rebel player, to make the comparison fair :

1) The Neb was poorly deployed and maneuvered. It should always orient its front to any ship that is coming for it fast. I don't care it's wasting side arcs shots, that's definitely not the role of a Neb B. Had it just banked right 1 in your example, it would have been much harder for the Demolisher to get easy side arcs shots. Not saying it is impossible but much more difficult due to the fornt hull zone blocking the other ones. If you expose the side arcs of a Neb B, you deserve its destruction, that's as simple as that.

Thanks for the reply MoffZen

For the sake of fellow rebel players, I thought I'd have a look at the moves with the bank right 1 you're suggesting, and find out if it would be possible for the demolisher to get side arcs.

(Note this uses the exact same Ship set up as before; one of the advantages of vassal is all games can be recorded )

The Yavaris at long range from the Demolisher.

The rebel player correctly anticipates a fast move forward from the Demolisher, and adjusts yaw to the right.

The Demolisher does a simple move, directly forward at its speed 3.

The Demolisher then does an Engine Tech move directly forward, and turns left. It will now overlap the squadrons, which can be placed by the Rebel player, but it will still get to fire its black dice into the side of the Yavaris.

The squadrons may be able to ping off a shield or two, but the Demolisher will almost certainly activate first next turn and put 4 more dice into the side of the Yavaris, with the option to do more after it finishes moving.

Unless it needs to make a big adjustment to speed to get the rear guns to kill the (probably already dead) Yavaris, the squadrons are going to be left in the dust as the Demolisher speeds off.

Honestly with acm glads don't need to shoot the side arc of the neb because they will kill it just as fast hitting the front arc since a screed glad will do ~5 damage a shot which after brace will bring down shields and then acms knock out the side arc shields. Then the second attack will do about 3 damage after brace and then acm will add 2 for the kill