So I've been pondering this for quite a bit. Why does every Commander cost 20+ points?

So far we have:

Imperials

Motti 24
Screed 26
Tarkin 38
Rebels

Dodonna 20
Garm bel 25
Mothma 30

and soon
Riekann 30

+ more for Wave 2

Why are these not 20 points cheaper? They're literally the one thing you have to take in every list. Every commander basically puts a 20 pt tax on your fleet. Do we think there are going to be any commanders cheaper in the future? i just remember the 2 Core Set Tournaments I ran, and how miserable all the Imperial players were with Fatass Tarkin eating up almost 1/4 of the points. Even now at 300, the top guys eat up 1/10th of your fleet points.

Every commander basically puts a 20 pt tax on your fleet.

They do fairly powerful things and should cost a lot, but if they weren't required then I'd bet most people wouldn't take one.

Im not saying they shouldn't be required. But from a cost perspective they're balanced against each other. If that's the case why do they cost so much. Every commander effectively has 20 points that doesn't "do" anything. Its just a commander tax. So say Tarkin is worth 18 points more than Dodonna. Why not just leave it at 18? Dodonna can sit at 0 and you just have to take him. He still has to sit on a ship, and he eats it if that pops.

Other than bringing one ship, which can be anywhere from 39 to 85 points, you don't have to bring anything except a commander. Every commander is at least 20 pts. For a must include. Thats a called a point tax. Every fleet MUST bring a commander. No opting out. Thus no commander needs to pay a cost other than one relative to the other admirals that can be taken. Which means so far, every commander is paying 20 pts at least that doesn't do anything in your list.

This does allow for future commanders with less powerful abilities to cost less than 20 points. FFG has some flexibility in what commanders it puts in upcoming waves.

There's the thematic reason for starters. Gotta have a commander.

As for why they're so expensive, their abilities are very powerful. Tarkin is kind of like having a Veteran Captain on every ship, that you can use every turn. if you have 4 ships, that's basically 6*3*4 = 72 points worth of Veteran Captains, all for 38 points. It's the same for the other Commanders.

Naturally, some commanders are going to be better suited for different fleets. I would hope nobody puts Tarkin on a 2 ship Empire build, he's simply not geared for that. On top of that, the game was designed for 400 points. So naturally it's going to feel weird when you can only put 180 points on the table.

I'd suggest watching the Armada portion of the GenCon interview with Alex. He has a lot of things to say about Armada that gives me great hope for the future of the game.

What you mean, some wouldn't take one?? I ain't leaving orbit without Screed.

I can see what Potter is saying. Lemme see if I can rephrase it for some people:

Since the point of points (lulz) is to balance the game, but each list requires a commander, we're essentially not building 300 point lists at this time. We're actually building 280 point lists, considering we have to have a commander, and a commander is, at cheapest, 20 points. Despite how powerful they are, they're a must-have, so you should have to pay a cost relative to how much the other commanders cost, rather than just paying for their cost in a vacuum.

Now, Nathanael does make a fair point: giving that extra 20 points of cushion gives FFG the option of making some cheaper costing commanders.

What would be interesting, I think, is if they gave us a generic, no name, 0 cost commander who doesn't give any benefits, and his sole purpose is to make one ship a Flagship for objectives and other such things. That way you had an option to choose a commander, but had to have one. In some lists, Tarkin's massive cost doesn't seam reasonable, but I can imagine him in others where he's definitely worth that cost (considering he buffs every ship you've got pretty well).

They are expensive, but I really don't think they are over cost. Takin almost negates the Victories 3 command dissadvantage (if you put on the right crew as well). Skreen and Assault Missiles basically guarantees 2 extra hits every time you fire black dice. Mothma's ability makes all those evades the Rebels have awesome.

As points go up from 300 to 400 these commanders are just going to get better.

I'll tell you exactly why. So you can have one ship that is not only giving a fleet wide buff, but is worth 20+ more points than a comparable naked ship. It gives your opponent an excuse to hunt your flag ship for points, and it gives you an incentive to protect it over other ships.

That is why the cheapest commander is 20 points, to incentivise hunting down a flagship.

Thank you Viratin, I'm running low on sleep and i couldn't make my point come across clearly it seems. Yes that's pretty much what I'm asking, and I too would like to see a 0 point commander at some point.

If there was a cheaper one then that's all people would go for, though at somepoint we would lose something. X-wing has special pilots bought into there ships, Aramada does not so it would make for a bland game, I love the thought of these great commanders fighting it out it brings something to the fight. At 400 points I don't think a 20-40 point commander takes away that much.

Well they affect entire fleets. . .

I'll tell you exactly why. So you can have one ship that is not only giving a fleet wide buff, but is worth 20+ more points than a comparable naked ship. It gives your opponent an excuse to hunt your flag ship for points, and it gives you an incentive to protect it over other ships.

That is why the cheapest commander is 20 points, to incentivise hunting down a flagship.

That's one part. The other part is that, you know, the commanders actually do things. Everything else in the game that does stuff costs points, so the commanders do too.

An interesting thought experiment really is: "If you could take a zero point commander who had no ability, would you?"

I will go first and say that in one of my two main rebel fleets, I would take the zero point commander. In my other, I would keep MM, but the "other" is 6 corvettes. Thus, a commander is a "point tax" in my first fleet, that limits my design options.

Reading all these topics about commander costs, what size of fleets people play with...people forget these types of games are as much about fleet building as they are about playing the game. The game within the game if you will.

I think 300 points is perfect for the ships we have right now. You have to give up something to get something. (although I do agree 400 will be better, and what the game was meant to be played at)

Making commanders costs cheaper or even playing those 600+ games just doesn't make sense. What fun is it when you can take everything you dream of in your fleet?

Decisions in fleet building. That's where the real game is.

You can have a great commander like tarkin for 38 points, but in a 300 point fleet that is super expensive. You should have to pay for that ability.

The more ships you play with the more expensive these commanders should be.

Sure, at 300 points you could take 3 VSDIIs and Tarkin, but at the cost of no squadrons and no upgrades. What fun is it (maybe some times ) to have the best commander, 6 VSD's with full upgrades, and all the squadrons you want?

At 400 points it will be the same. Commanders will become more expensive, and ships will become bigger and more expensive. And you will have to make those 'hard' choices about fleet building.

If the standard Fleet cost was 600 points tarkin would cost 76 points and ships would cost more.

Games like this balance the points so that you cannot take everything you want in a standard fleet build.

I wonder if we'll see more Motti coming to play as the ISDs come out. At 24 points, he's one of the cheapest commanders, but adding 3 hull points on top of the already insane tankiness of ISDs? If you fit 3 ISDs in a 400 point list, he's going to add 9 hull points your enemy has to chew through.

I can see what Potter is saying. Lemme see if I can rephrase it for some people:

I think I got it, but I can see what you're saying. Why do commanders start at 20 points and go up from there. They could start at 5 and go from there.

But I think they cost that much because FFG wants them to take up a decent % of the fleets point total. One thing I think they did wrong in X-Wing was the 100 point system. I find that 1000 point games are easier to balance, because in a 100 point game a 5 point upgrade is 5% of your total, but with 1000 points you can have the same upgrade cost 35 or 47 points which allows more fine tuning.

With a 400 point system, a 5 point commander is a pretty small % of the total points.

Yeah, I think the intent is to incentivize hunting flagships.

Except Commanders aren't priced compared to the power of say X-17, or Demolisher, or Expanded Hangar Bays. Well partially, depending on that ability in relation to power in the game. But they're balanced off each other.

Say all Commanders currently out cost 20 points less. How does that change the game? Does that make any of them more powerful? Well not really. Only thing that actually happens is every list gets 20 pts back to spend.

Every list HAS to take a commander. Its not optional. Their abilities are balanced off each other's abilities and reflected in their point costs. If every commander is worth at least 20 points and then some, it still doesn't make sense to charge the player for those 20 points, because you still don't get to spend them on anything else.

If commanders go lower than 20 in the future, fine, everything's Just As Planned. But if they don't, its worth keeping in mind that you're always fleet building at the pt level -20.

Another point is that because you are required to take a commander, and because the commander will consume at least ~8% of your points at 300 points, you are incentivized to build fleets for that commander, otherwise you have sunk points.

Or, in more plain terms:

• Garm forces you to look to Whales.
• MM forces you to look towards Corvettes.

Thus, it limits the design space. If I want to take my multi-nebulon + A-wing alpha strike test list out, who do I pick as the commander? MM isn't bossing around enough evades to be worth it, Garm is my unfortunate current choice because at least I get a few tokens, and Dodonna doesn't work with the A-wings so he's kind of a waste.

So thus it's a tax, and more so, causes me to just say "f it, I'll keep playing my corvettes" because I have to pay a tax to try something that doesn't fit within the commander box currently to maximize a cost I have to pay.

If commanders go lower than 20 in the future, fine, everything's Just As Planned. But if they don't, its worth keeping in mind that you're always fleet building at the pt level -20.

A lot of wargames have some sort of "commander tax." Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy had HQ units (Well, these days 40k has Warlords. No idea what Age of Sigmar has now). Warmahordes has Warcasters. Limitations are in and of themselves part of list-building

I personally think they simply costed them exactly as if they were a normal upgrade, I mean if you think about it, at least I would have a really hard time taking (or at least respecting) an upgrade Like Acms if for 1 point less I could take screed which is better and applys to everything. Or on the flip side why would I ever consider xx-9 to be a decent upgrade if for 0 points I could have dodonna and just grab a devastating crit even if it is just off of my opponent hitting an asteroid. It wouldn't make sense.

Commander taxes are terrible. And HQ units in those games are a different ball game entirely since they have a direct physical impact on the game. All have wounds, attacks, spells, abilities, etc. That is not the same as having to pay 20 points just to label one dude the "Commander" and get "Warlord" ability.

I personally think they simply costed them exactly as if they were a normal upgrade, I mean if you think about it, at least I would have a really hard time taking (or at least respecting) an upgrade Like Acms if for 1 point less I could take screed which is better and applys to everything. Or on the flip side why would I ever consider xx-9 to be a decent upgrade if for 0 points I could have dodonna and just grab a devastating crit even if it is just off of my opponent hitting an asteroid. It wouldn't make sense.

Uhhhhh what? ACM's and Screed synergy is entirely the point of those builds. And Dodonna and XX-9 do not do the same thing at all. They have amazing synergy. You draw 4 cards, choose one, discard, then draw 4 mores, choose one, discard. For 1 crit icon. Thats really really good.

Commander taxes are terrible. And HQ units in those games are a different ball game entirely since they have a direct physical impact on the game. All have wounds, attacks, spells, abilities, etc. That is not the same as having to pay 20 points just to label one dude the "Commander" and get "Warlord" ability.

I personally think they simply costed them exactly as if they were a normal upgrade, I mean if you think about it, at least I would have a really hard time taking (or at least respecting) an upgrade Like Acms if for 1 point less I could take screed which is better and applys to everything. Or on the flip side why would I ever consider xx-9 to be a decent upgrade if for 0 points I could have dodonna and just grab a devastating crit even if it is just off of my opponent hitting an asteroid. It wouldn't make sense.

Uhhhhh what? ACM's and Screed synergy is entirely the point of those builds. And Dodonna and XX-9 do not do the same thing at all. They have amazing synergy. You draw 4 cards, choose one, discard, then draw 4 mores, choose one, discard. For 1 crit icon. Thats really really good.

You still HAVE to take a commander. It's not optional. What i'm asking is why do they all cost base 20 points. Commander "upgrades" are not in the same class as all the other upgrades in the game. You absolutely MUST take them. There's "no why would i take Expanded Launchers if Screed only costs 8 points."
It's just that now you get 20 more points to spend on more upgrades, after you decided between Motti, Screed, and Tarkin, and paid 4,8 or 18 points.
Rebels would switch to 0 (yay free), 8, and 10.
There's no "difference" in power level. The ONLY reason i can see is what was mentioned earlier, that the 20 points is used as a incentive to make you want to kill the flagship. That seems kinda weak, since i probably want to try to kill the ship that say, Motti is on anyway to make his ships have less health. "Hey don't you wanna kill that ship you already REALLY wanted to kill? here's some points to sway you." Thats not a very good incentive imo.