In all F&D Specializations that only offer 1 instance of either Dedication or Force Rating this Talent is used instead:

Force Dedication: +1 to a single Characteristic OR +1 to Force Rating

This would add some flexibility to these Specializations to choose to focus more on Force ability or Characteristics. But Specs that offer 2 Force Ratings or both Force Rating and Dedication would still have a lot of value and flexibility.

What do you think?

I'm actually happy with it as is. When my kids and I made knight level characters the other day, in order to get the high force ratings they wanted, they were forced to branch out into other specializations. In my mind, that emulates some sort of "in order to experience the force, you need to expand your horizons" mechanic.

As a house rule, however, your solution would work fine with me were I in your game.

Too powerful. Niman Disciple becomes a must-have lightsaber spec since you've got access to a potential 2 Force Rating, multiple Defensive Trainings, Parry and Reflect, and Center of Being. (I'm still using Beta until my Core/GM Kit arrives today, so pardon me if there's been some tweaks I'm not yet aware of.) And I mean that while it isn't necessarily a must-have primary lightsaber spec, it's pretty much the go-to secondary one to grab an easy force-rating boost and a ton of useful universal lightsaber talents. And with Force Ratings so easy to get, it kind of trivializes lightsaber crystal upgrading, which were made easier based on Force Rating to give players half a chance of upgrading it than just pawning it off on the player with the highest Intellect.

Also works the other way. Player not so interested in Force Ratings can grab a second Dedication (for some specializations), for a minimal cost. So now a player with 3 3's and 3 2's is a player with 2 4's, 1 3, and 2 2's.

Overall it just sort of quickly overpowers Force-sensitives compared to normal people, which is kind of counter-intuitive to how FFG planned it, where it takes more XP and time for force-sensitives to really come into their own and really match and eventually (big emphasis on eventually) exceed their normal counterparts.

But as long as you trust your players to not try and break/game the system, then it should be fine.

Too powerful. Niman Disciple becomes a must-have lightsaber spec since you've got access to a potential 2 Force Rating, multiple Defensive Trainings, Parry and Reflect, and Center of Being. (I'm still using Beta until my Core/GM Kit arrives today, so pardon me if there's been some tweaks I'm not yet aware of.) And I mean that while it isn't necessarily a must-have primary lightsaber spec, it's pretty much the go-to secondary one to grab an easy force-rating boost and a ton of useful universal lightsaber talents. And with Force Ratings so easy to get, it kind of trivializes lightsaber crystal upgrading, which were made easier based on Force Rating to give players half a chance of upgrading it than just pawning it off on the player with the highest Intellect.

Also works the other way. Player not so interested in Force Ratings can grab a second Dedication (for some specializations), for a minimal cost. So now a player with 3 3's and 3 2's is a player with 2 4's, 1 3, and 2 2's.

Overall it just sort of quickly overpowers Force-sensitives compared to normal people, which is kind of counter-intuitive to how FFG planned it, where it takes more XP and time for force-sensitives to really come into their own and really match and eventually (big emphasis on eventually) exceed their normal counterparts.

But as long as you trust your players to not try and break/game the system, then it should be fine.

That's why I'd limit this Talent to those trees that ONLY had Dedication (no Force Rating) or ONLY had ONE Force Rating Talent (no Dedication). In other words it wouldn't apply to Niman Disciple or Seer, etc.

Too powerful. Niman Disciple becomes a must-have lightsaber spec since you've got access to a potential 2 Force Rating, multiple Defensive Trainings, Parry and Reflect, and Center of Being. (I'm still using Beta until my Core/GM Kit arrives today, so pardon me if there's been some tweaks I'm not yet aware of.) And I mean that while it isn't necessarily a must-have primary lightsaber spec, it's pretty much the go-to secondary one to grab an easy force-rating boost and a ton of useful universal lightsaber talents. And with Force Ratings so easy to get, it kind of trivializes lightsaber crystal upgrading, which were made easier based on Force Rating to give players half a chance of upgrading it than just pawning it off on the player with the highest Intellect.

Also works the other way. Player not so interested in Force Ratings can grab a second Dedication (for some specializations), for a minimal cost. So now a player with 3 3's and 3 2's is a player with 2 4's, 1 3, and 2 2's.

Overall it just sort of quickly overpowers Force-sensitives compared to normal people, which is kind of counter-intuitive to how FFG planned it, where it takes more XP and time for force-sensitives to really come into their own and really match and eventually (big emphasis on eventually) exceed their normal counterparts.

But as long as you trust your players to not try and break/game the system, then it should be fine.

That's why I'd limit this Talent to those trees that ONLY had Dedication (no Force Rating) or ONLY had ONE Force Rating Talent (no Dedication). In other words it wouldn't apply to Niman Disciple or Seer, etc.

At that point, you've really changed the cost-benefit analysis of picking up the trees that only have one or the other, which were set that way on purpose for a reason.

Personally, I think the idea is kind of cheesy and geared toward cherry-picking and min-maxing, but if it works for your game and your players, don't let me tell you have to have your fun. (And I swear that last sentence isn't sarcastic, honest!)

That's why I'd limit this Talent to those trees that ONLY had Dedication (no Force Rating) or ONLY had ONE Force Rating Talent (no Dedication). In other words it wouldn't apply to Niman Disciple or Seer, etc.

Ah, mis-read, my mistake. Still some minor balance issues. Allows lightsaber focused players to gain up Force Ratings relatively easily regardless, which is a balancing tactic for their force rating-focused talents, and makes lightsaber upgrades simpler.

Not to mention it means you could go through non-FaD specializations, like Bounty Hunter/Assassin, for a Force Rating. Unless you also add a restriction for that.

Not AS game breaking, but can still be abused. But still, if you know your players won't abuse it, it's fine to use at your table.

Too powerful. Niman Disciple becomes a must-have lightsaber spec since you've got access to a potential 2 Force Rating, multiple Defensive Trainings, Parry and Reflect, and Center of Being. (I'm still using Beta until my Core/GM Kit arrives today, so pardon me if there's been some tweaks I'm not yet aware of.) And I mean that while it isn't necessarily a must-have primary lightsaber spec, it's pretty much the go-to secondary one to grab an easy force-rating boost and a ton of useful universal lightsaber talents. And with Force Ratings so easy to get, it kind of trivializes lightsaber crystal upgrading, which were made easier based on Force Rating to give players half a chance of upgrading it than just pawning it off on the player with the highest Intellect.

Also works the other way. Player not so interested in Force Ratings can grab a second Dedication (for some specializations), for a minimal cost. So now a player with 3 3's and 3 2's is a player with 2 4's, 1 3, and 2 2's.

Overall it just sort of quickly overpowers Force-sensitives compared to normal people, which is kind of counter-intuitive to how FFG planned it, where it takes more XP and time for force-sensitives to really come into their own and really match and eventually (big emphasis on eventually) exceed their normal counterparts.

But as long as you trust your players to not try and break/game the system, then it should be fine.

That's why I'd limit this Talent to those trees that ONLY had Dedication (no Force Rating) or ONLY had ONE Force Rating Talent (no Dedication). In other words it wouldn't apply to Niman Disciple or Seer, etc.

At that point, you've really changed the cost-benefit analysis of picking up the trees that only have one or the other, which were set that way on purpose for a reason.

Personally, I think the idea is kind of cheesy and geared toward cherry-picking and min-maxing, but if it works for your game and your players, don't let me tell you have to have your fun. (And I swear that last sentence isn't sarcastic, honest!)

It does alter the cost-benefit analysis (any house rule change to mechanics does that) but it still offers a trade-off.

Yes, lightsaber form talent trees would have a much easier path to getting FR +1, but they're sacrificing + Characteristic to do so.

Most of these trees allow you to use an alternate Characteristic to use Lightsaber as well as have Talents that use Lightsaber(Alt Characteristic) so +1 Characteristic is particularly valuable. But it would allow players to who want to play a more balanced character a little help, which is sorta the opposite of min-maxing (e.g., min-maxed characters typically aren't balanced as it's more effecient to focus on one thing until it's overpowering, like focusing on Force Powers OR focusing on Lightsabers).

I appreciate the feedback.

I'm with Lathrop on this. The Talent trees are set up to emulate a learning curve as well as to balance EXP cost to effect ratio across many Careers. Basically they are the way FFG encourages/requires Players to build PCs that have a broad base of abilities like the characters in the films, rather than min-maxed ones which have less dimension and depth. It's not that you can't min-max but the progression system forces at least some branching to do it. It's not perfect but it's better than most.

Edit: fixed some grammar.

One of the major balancing factors to five of the six LS Form specs not having Force Rating talent is that they've got Improved Parry or Improved Reflect (or in Soresu Defender's case, both). Given those talents can become fairly easy to trigger for most of the LS Form specs, especially as you start combining Defensive Training with the Sense power and its defensive Control Upgrade, that equates to free damage to an opponent without an attack roll required.

The LS Form specs are powerful enough as is, and for a Force user the option to increase their Force Rating is far more valuable than a Characteristic boost, which may not even be that important, if you figure a PC starts with a 3 in their primary Characteristics; an Ataru Striker with Agility 3, Cunning 3, and Willpower 3 is in pretty good shape without really needing to raise either of those to a 4, and the other Characteristics can generally be left at 2 each without hampering the character all that much, and being able to get Force Rating 2 without going into another spec is going to be a huge benefit to the Ataru Striker, as it lets them beef up their Saber Swarm talent and get even more mileage out of Hawk-Bat Swoop.

For Force user PCs, it pretty much fails the "why would I not take advantage of this?", especially for LS Form characters.

I would allow players one time to substitute a dedication for a Force rating or vise versa. However once they chose once the rest were as is. That would allow for a one time stepping out of my restrictions without breaking the game

One of the major balancing factors to five of the six LS Form specs not having Force Rating talent is that they've got Improved Parry or Improved Reflect (or in Soresu Defender's case, both). Given those talents can become fairly easy to trigger for most of the LS Form specs, especially as you start combining Defensive Training with the Sense power and its defensive Control Upgrade, that equates to free damage to an opponent without an attack roll required.

The LS Form specs are powerful enough as is, and for a Force user the option to increase their Force Rating is far more valuable than a Characteristic boost, which may not even be that important, if you figure a PC starts with a 3 in their primary Characteristics; an Ataru Striker with Agility 3, Cunning 3, and Willpower 3 is in pretty good shape without really needing to raise either of those to a 4, and the other Characteristics can generally be left at 2 each without hampering the character all that much, and being able to get Force Rating 2 without going into another spec is going to be a huge benefit to the Ataru Striker, as it lets them beef up their Saber Swarm talent and get even more mileage out of Hawk-Bat Swoop.

For Force user PCs, it pretty much fails the "why would I not take advantage of this?", especially for LS Form characters.

Well when you put it that way...

Yeah, the Ataru Striker getting Linked 2 is much better than +1 Agility.

And some LS specs do get more from a FR bump than a Characteristic bump.

Seems like some specs are built around a particular Characteristic so the Dedication is just as valuable to them as they get better at a bunch of skill, Lightsaber and any Talents using Lightsaber but that isn't the case for all of them.

But you make a good argument that in many, perhaps most, cases the FR would be more valuable than Dedication.

One of the major balancing factors to five of the six LS Form specs not having Force Rating talent is that they've got Improved Parry or Improved Reflect (or in Soresu Defender's case, both). Given those talents can become fairly easy to trigger for most of the LS Form specs, especially as you start combining Defensive Training with the Sense power and its defensive Control Upgrade, that equates to free damage to an opponent without an attack roll required.

The LS Form specs are powerful enough as is, and for a Force user the option to increase their Force Rating is far more valuable than a Characteristic boost, which may not even be that important, if you figure a PC starts with a 3 in their primary Characteristics; an Ataru Striker with Agility 3, Cunning 3, and Willpower 3 is in pretty good shape without really needing to raise either of those to a 4, and the other Characteristics can generally be left at 2 each without hampering the character all that much, and being able to get Force Rating 2 without going into another spec is going to be a huge benefit to the Ataru Striker, as it lets them beef up their Saber Swarm talent and get even more mileage out of Hawk-Bat Swoop.

For Force user PCs, it pretty much fails the "why would I not take advantage of this?", especially for LS Form characters.

Well when you put it that way...

Yeah, the Ataru Striker getting Linked 2 is much better than +1 Agility.

And some LS specs do get more from a FR bump than a Characteristic bump.

Seems like some specs are built around a particular Characteristic so the Dedication is just as valuable to them as they get better at a bunch of skill, Lightsaber and any Talents using Lightsaber but that isn't the case for all of them.

But you make a good argument that in many, perhaps most, cases the FR would be more valuable than Dedication.

There was a discussion on the Order 66 podcast on why they did things the way they did...I think episode 13 or so...

They spread things out in multiple trees because the force is VERY powerful. A force user has to spread themselves out wide to become effective.