2. He knows about Chaos, Ruinous Power (by names and main attributes) or traitor humans of the Eye existence, but not about Traitor Legions. He knows that traitors attack Imperium from time to time, but not about the Long War.

2) I'm not 100% positive, but I'm fairly certain that the official fluff is that almost nobody knows anything about Chaos or the Ruinous Powers; and that if any 'common' people ever find out that they exist (even if they're not corrupted by them), they're summarily slaughtered.

That said, this was something that I altered for my own campaign; at least in the sector in which it takes place. From a storytelling perspective, a planet with an ongoing chaos problem stemming from a mild case of corruptions is the kind of place where interesting things can happen. A planet which has been completely obliterated with cyclonic torpedoes because someone thought they saw a Nurgling (which was actually just a rotten potato; oops) is kinda dull. But that's just my personal preference.

To be honest I'm always ban this opinion, because, well, there is something Church says, as Christian church says about Satan.

I believe we have "Great Enemy", we have "Very Evil Enemy Rulers, one of them sent bloody wishes, another is responsible to ilnesses and so on". If you know something more definite, you're in danger. If you're actually MET something more define... well, I'm not envy you.

I suspect in many cases the 'average citizen' - the kind of person who might live on a Hive World, say - would know a little less detail than that. They probably know there are 'xenos', but knowledge of Orks and Eldar specifically is probably patchy at best, based more on unreliable tales from former Imperial Guardsmen than education from the establishment. I believe the DH 1 rulebook stated that the Ecclesiarchy was very big on talking about the big scary xenos out there, but never went into any further detail. Inhabitants of feral and feudal worlds, underhives, remote void stations etc. will likely know even less than that. Similar things go for historical knowledge.

Also, keep in mind that not only does citizens' limited knowledge mean they don't know things the players do, it also means they are less certain about the things they do know. Remember, when reading about a fictional narrative, you have a degree of clarity and certainty you never have when you actually live in the world - even with 40k's patchy and contradictory sources.

My players used to read different sources about 40K, so they know a lot of things good Imperial shouldn't. But they didn't read them a lot and there is no many sourses about "low-level" (not Inquisition, generals and admirals or SM-scale), so they have problems to set what is known and what isn't. So I believe it's good to write some list "what can common man without any Lore skill or personal experience know, and what he can't".

Well. I know, there is no any "common Imperial man", some worlds can have access to some unique info, and some worlds can have not something below. But I believe it's that kind of info that's accessible without special announcement.

1. He knows about existence of Orks, Eldars, Tyranides; but he can't distinguish different branch of Eldar (Craftworld, exodites or dark ones) or identify tyranide when he see one. Not Tau until he lives nearby (Tau are very local problem). Never Necrons.

2. He knows about Chaos, Ruinous Power (by names and main attributes) or traitor humans of the Eye existence, but not about Traitor Legions. He knows that traitors attack Imperium from time to time, but not about the Long War.

3. He knows about Horus and his ancient battle with Emperor, and he knows Horus did that because he was seduced by Chaos. That's all he knows about Horus Heresy.

4. He knows Emperor rised to power 10K years ago, created Marines and Primarches, and lead them in Great Crusade until Horus Heresy happens. That's all he knows about Great Crusade.

5. He knows about psyker existence, about sanctionising as concept and he heard that psykers can read thoughts, control minds, heal, throw lightnings and fireballs and do anything at all. At least that's what old wives' tales speaks. And, yes, psyker CAN sent astrograms instantly. Every damned one. No any info to distinguish, well, Primaris Psyker from Astropath or about any real possibilities of Disciplines.

6. He knows about machine intelligence. It's Machine Spirit. Yes, that's simple.

7. He knows about Inquisition that is defending Imperium from untold horrors highly united. You heard one Inquisitor - you heard Inquisition. They don't know anything about factions or Ordos.

8. He can distinguish las weapon from plasma and both of it with melta. But he can't identify power or force weapon until activated.

9. He can't identify xenotech. Well, usually he can say "it's not human", but he can't say whose is it.

10. He knows about Astronomican as beacon for humanity, but he don't know what it means or how that beacon is feeded.

Something else?

I believe you're giving the average joe far too much credit. To live in the Imperium of Man is to live in fear and ignorance. To live in this state means that you will accept the truths blindly from those in charge who say that they have your best interestes at heart (i.e. survival and the promise that your soul will meet the Emperor. Please allow me to provide another interpretation.

For example:

1) Xenos - you know they exist, but they are big terrifying and will kill you in a second unless there is a brave guardsman around to protect you. By the way you should join the Imperial Guard so you can be this big, strong guardsman and protect others.

2) There is The Great Enemy, or Chaos, or the Ruinous powers that will corrupt the soul of man. They are not given form, except in the faces of the traitors. Hey is that Bob from accounting? Apparently he thought stealing from The Church was a good idea, now he's wearing spiky chains, waving a sawed-off shotgun and is threatening to kill everyone so he had to be taken away.

3) There is no talk about Horus or any of that. The Astartes and their Primarchs are uncorruptible angels of Purity and Wrath. There is no way that they will ever succumb to the Ruinous powers or turn against the God Emperor. To even suggest that would be heresy.

4) Everything up until the Horus Heresy is, I'm sure, in the various texts and teachings. How the Emperor came to be this way is a grey-ish area but I'm sure it's the "Died for your sins" style thing.

5) Psykers are mutants, and mutants defy the emperor's nature by existing. If you see anyone perform any sort of witchcraft, contact your local arbites.

6) The spirit of the machine must be kept happy. Be sure to dismantle and clean your rifle with only the most sacred of oils thatcan be purchased at your nearby shop for only $39.99

7) The Inquisition may as well be the boogyman. It comes in the night and takes your wife away for no reason whatsoever. Be on your best behaviour citizen.

8) I would think that solid projectiles and las weapons would be the most common. Plasma, despite its prevalence in lore, is an arcane technology and rather rare, and moreso with melta.

9) If it's not boxy and square and makes all sorts of noise when its supposed to move, it's probably xenotech. Please do not touch and notify your local arbites.

10) I think the Astronomicon would be lumped into talk of the Golden Throne.

Just my interpretation of things.

My players used to read different sources about 40K, so they know a lot of things good Imperial shouldn't. But they didn't read them a lot and there is no many sourses about "low-level" (not Inquisition, generals and admirals or SM-scale), so they have problems to set what is known and what isn't. So I believe it's good to write some list "what can common man without any Lore skill or personal experience know, and what he can't".

Well. I know, there is no any "common Imperial man", some worlds can have access to some unique info, and some worlds can have not something below. But I believe it's that kind of info that's accessible without special announcement.

1. He knows about existence of Orks, Eldars, Tyranides; but he can't distinguish different branch of Eldar (Craftworld, exodites or dark ones) or identify tyranide when he see one. Not Tau until he lives nearby (Tau are very local problem). Never Necrons.

2. He knows about Chaos, Ruinous Power (by names and main attributes) or traitor humans of the Eye existence, but not about Traitor Legions. He knows that traitors attack Imperium from time to time, but not about the Long War.

3. He knows about Horus and his ancient battle with Emperor, and he knows Horus did that because he was seduced by Chaos. That's all he knows about Horus Heresy.

4. He knows Emperor rised to power 10K years ago, created Marines and Primarches, and lead them in Great Crusade until Horus Heresy happens. That's all he knows about Great Crusade.

5. He knows about psyker existence, about sanctionising as concept and he heard that psykers can read thoughts, control minds, heal, throw lightnings and fireballs and do anything at all. At least that's what old wives' tales speaks. And, yes, psyker CAN sent astrograms instantly. Every damned one. No any info to distinguish, well, Primaris Psyker from Astropath or about any real possibilities of Disciplines.

6. He knows about machine intelligence. It's Machine Spirit. Yes, that's simple.

7. He knows about Inquisition that is defending Imperium from untold horrors highly united. You heard one Inquisitor - you heard Inquisition. They don't know anything about factions or Ordos.

8. He can distinguish las weapon from plasma and both of it with melta. But he can't identify power or force weapon until activated.

9. He can't identify xenotech. Well, usually he can say "it's not human", but he can't say whose is it.

10. He knows about Astronomican as beacon for humanity, but he don't know what it means or how that beacon is feeded.

Something else?

Some of this is probably closer to common or maybe even veteran guardsmen knowledge more than average citizen.

1) By most citizens xenos are thought of as a nebulous evil. They know nothing more than to recognize something as alien and that they should hate it. Maybe orks since orks are such a widespread problem. Nids seem like something that would be pretty classified due to how dangerous and difficult to stop they are. Trouble stopping a bunch of bugs doesn't help spread the "humanity is the best" propaganda very effectively. Eldar- At best they would know that they look a bit like humans but are untrustworthy and evil. They would know nothing about factions or craftworlds or really anything of significance. If you've seen the guard uplifting primer, its information is way off and its the material provided to the guard so you can expect citizens get even less and worse info.

2) MY GOD EMPEROR NO! Any knowledge of chaos is strictly forbidden! Guard regiments are frequently purged after having run-ins with chaos and even space marines sometimes get mind wiped after encounters with daemons. Citizens should know absolutely nothing about chaos other than that sinners often show physical signs of corruption. They would know nothing of the chaos gods, eye of terror (unless from cadia) or the traitor legions. They would be aware that heretical cults and traitors occasionally rise up but would only know the bare minimum needed to recognize and report heresy if they saw it. They also wouldn't know that the warp is related to anything but space travel if they've heard of the warp at all.

3) It being 10,000 years in the past I think few would know anything about Horus or the Horus Heresy. The Horus Heresy and Long war are a forbidden lore so we can assume no average citizen knows of it. Ties to closely with traitor marines and the emperor's failures.

4) Again probably not really. Many worlds would not have much in the way of school or history lessons. Keep in mind that the Emperor is viewed on many planets in the same way as modern day and past gods (some worship their planets sun as the emperor, some view the golden throne in the same nebulous way as christian heaven etc.) Details like this could shatter many various god images cultures have of the emperor.

5) yep pretty much. He also knows he should hate them because they are dangerous and unpredictable. Even a psyker being sanctioned may not protect them from a mobs fear and hate.

6) yep, and that keeping the machine spirit happy is good.

7) yep. To add to this, they would likely not understand how free form the inquisition operates thinking it a monolithic organization.

8) More or less. Depends on the planet and the person's familiarity with fire arms. People from primitive worlds, agri worlds or feral or feudal for example, would be able to tell there is a difference but probably would not know the names plasma, melta , or las and wouldn't be able to tell you which is which.

9) Yep, humans are taught to recognize inhumane things specifically so they know to report, destroy and avoid them.

10) They may know of it and think of it as the guiding light of the emperor or something but if they don't deal with any kind of space travel they probably don't know exactly what it does or about navigators.

When dealing with average citizens remember that, in the Imperium, ignorance is considered a virtue.

To be honest I'm always ban this opinion, because, well, there is something Church says, as Christian church says about Satan.

I believe we have "Great Enemy", we have "Very Evil Enemy Rulers, one of them sent bloody wishes, another is responsible to ilnesses and so on". If you know something more definite, you're in danger. If you're actually MET something more define... well, I'm not envy you.

They don't talk of the chaos gods the same way christians bring up the devil. At most they may talk about Evil. They do talk about sin, temptation, corruption and judgement the same way though and anything that doesn't conform is automatically labeled sin and heresy.

About xenos - I believe it's not hard for Imperial citizen to know primer' general content, and it's speaks about Eldars, Orks and Tyranides. Existence, not details. That's the most common xeno issues for Imperium after all.

About Chaos... that's hard. You see Imperial citizens knows well about great defenders of Cadia or about Imperial Saints who gain their sainty fighting daemons. Yes, ignorance is bliss of course, but I don't believe even Ecclesiarchy will say "Hey, Saint Somebody defeated daemons so he IS saint but there is no such things as daemon!". That's too stupid even for them.

And about Horus... well, Lucifer was an angel. So I believe it's normal to say "hey, there was a great son of the Emperor, he fall by Emperor Own Hand, everybody should learn by this lesson". After all that's kind of official Imperial Credo - with "Emperor sitting on Golden Throne" part.

Same about Great Crusade. That's not history or legends. That's kind of church official teaching.

About xenos - I believe it's not hard for Imperial citizen to know primer' general content, and it's speaks about Eldars, Orks and Tyranides. Existence, not details. That's the most common xeno issues for Imperium after all.

About Chaos... that's hard. You see Imperial citizens knows well about great defenders of Cadia or about Imperial Saints who gain their sainty fighting daemons. Yes, ignorance is bliss of course, but I don't believe even Ecclesiarchy will say "Hey, Saint Somebody defeated daemons so he IS saint but there is no such things as daemon!". That's too stupid even for them.

And about Horus... well, Lucifer was an angel. So I believe it's normal to say "hey, there was a great son of the Emperor, he fall by Emperor Own Hand, everybody should learn by this lesson". After all that's kind of official Imperial Credo - with "Emperor sitting on Golden Throne" part.

Same about Great Crusade. That's not history or legends. That's kind of church official teaching.

I can't think of any saints known for fighting daemons. Most warrior style saints are known for crushing rebels and heretics and reuniting loyal worlds.

Yeah they wouldn't say "Hey, Saint Somebody defeated daemons so he IS saint but there is no such things as daemon!" because most who fight daemons are forgotten by history or are only remembered by other people privy to the knowledge of daemons. Who remembers the names of the many grey knights and inquisitors and their throne agents who die fighting daemons, probably only other inquisitors and grey knights.

I'm honestly not sure about Horus. However since there is a forbidden lore that covers it I'd say the common citizen would know little. I don't see it as needing to be part of the dogma. All the citizen needs to know is that the emperor watches over all mankind from his golden throne on glorious Terra and that (at least from their perspective) that's how it's always been.

Citizens know that there are heretics out there who do crazy things like worship false gods, consort with aliens and mutants, use witchcraft and commit other heresy but they definitely don't know that these gods are real or the names of these gods or that their are roughly 4 branches of chaos etc.

I don't think a random Askallon manufactorum worker would necessarily know what a Cadian is. Why would he know about guard from half way across the galaxy? He's far more likely to know of more local guard regiments. There are many saints who are only known in their home sector as well.

I can't think of any saints known for fighting daemons. Most warrior style saints are known for crushing rebels and heretics and reuniting loyal worlds.

The first ever known saint is Euphrati Keeler who is known for her perception of Daemon. Agamemnon the Just who is venerated saint in Calixis was Daemonhunter. Euphrica was a saint who banished daemon into Warp from piligrim vessel.

But most daemonhunters are lost in time for sure, and you shouldn't expect something more "daemon exist" from anybody who read Euphrica agiography.

I'm honestly not sure about Horus. However since there is a forbidden lore that covers it I'd say the common citizen would know little. I don't see it as needing to be part of the dogma.

I belive dogma contains something about "Horus was a favored son of the Emperor, he betrayed Him and was killed for that." I think that even Primarch part is not known, to know it you should roll that forbidden lore. "Do you want the truth or Church teachings?"

Well, common citizen knows about psyker existence despite correspondened FL exists.

I don't think a random Askallon manufactorum worker would necessarily know what a Cadian is. Why would he know about guard from half way across the galaxy?

Because there is information exchange between Imperial planets by canon. Cadians are used by propaganda, so Yarric and Armageddon.

Just in case. That list in starting post contains finished concepts. Common lore about Horus IS NOT "he was Primarch, he was Warmaster, he was leader of Luna Wolves" and so on. It is "he existed, he betrayed Emperor Himself so he is Archtraitor, he is cursed for all eternity such as every damned traitor will".

@ OP: My opinions on what you wrote:

NOTE: This is for your typical peasants. They know things about the Imperium. Almost nothing outside of it.

For example, space ships, space travel, the mechanicus, the faith, the fact that Astartes exist (probably) and are glorious winged angels of the Emperor's Doom. Anything outside the scope of the normal day-to-day drudgery is filled with mysticism and misinformation.

Onto your examples:

Look at this another way - every fresh recrut of IG should be punished if he DON'T know about this three races existence.

Definitely not. Ignorance is the main defence against the temptation of Chaos.

He knows about witches. Details are driven by fear and legends. All witches must be gathered and handed over to the government. I suspect that sanctioned psykers are incredibly rare and the knowledge that they exist and are used is not common,.

Well... let me ask you all a question. Imperium have a great deal of propaganda, misinformation, church brainwashing and so on.

You believe that propaganda, misinformation, church brainwashing don't include:

1. Anything at all about xeno.

2. ANYTHING AT ALL about Great Enemy.

3. Anything at all about legendary history.

What IS it includes?

People are just conveying what the fluff indicates to the best of their knowledge.

Nobody is claiming that the fluff makes any sense .

I can't think of any saints known for fighting daemons. Most warrior style saints are known for crushing rebels and heretics and reuniting loyal worlds.

The first ever known saint is Euphrati Keeler who is known for her perception of Daemon. Agamemnon the Just who is venerated saint in Calixis was Daemonhunter. Euphrica was a saint who banished daemon into Warp from piligrim vessel.

But most daemonhunters are lost in time for sure, and you shouldn't expect something more "daemon exist" from anybody who read Euphrica agiography.

I'm honestly not sure about Horus. However since there is a forbidden lore that covers it I'd say the common citizen would know little. I don't see it as needing to be part of the dogma.

I belive dogma contains something about "Horus was a favored son of the Emperor, he betrayed Him and was killed for that." I think that even Primarch part is not known, to know it you should roll that forbidden lore. "Do you want the truth or Church teachings?"

Well, common citizen knows about psyker existence despite correspondened FL exists.

I don't think a random Askallon manufactorum worker would necessarily know what a Cadian is. Why would he know about guard from half way across the galaxy?

Because there is information exchange between Imperial planets by canon. Cadians are used by propaganda, so Yarric and Armageddon.

Just in case. That list in starting post contains finished concepts. Common lore about Horus IS NOT "he was Primarch, he was Warmaster, he was leader of Luna Wolves" and so on. It is "he existed, he betrayed Emperor Himself so he is Archtraitor, he is cursed for all eternity such as every damned traitor will".

Fair enough on the saints. I'm not familiar with any of them How much are they actually known for the Daemon hunting though and how much of that is simply narrative known by the reader that the citizens would not be privy to? How much within setting are they talked about as slayers of daemons rather than as devote warriors who fought off great evil or Darkness. I feel like the ecclesiarchy would be very metaphorical with the stories for these saints rather than admitting to exactly what the true horrors are. Knowing the detailed story of how they were actually daemonhunters not just warriors killing generic evil monsters would be known by those with forbidden lore Ecclesiarchy or something. I could be way off though since like I said I've not actually seen the fluff for those saints.

That Horus stuff seems mostly reasonable although I still have my doubts. Some worlds' versions of the Imperial Creed don't even cover the golden throne so I think it would really depend on the planet's specific version of the Imperial Creed more than anything.

On Cadians, I think this is bias due to GW's model line being Cadians and so fluff and stories tend to focus on them a lot. It makes little sense for a sector not to use a home regiment in its own propaganda. Also Armageddon would be a terrible planet to use for propaganda as it is in shambles (most of the hives cities have been destroyed) and orks are still pouring into the system even with Ghaz having fled. Also while there is communication between planets its unreliable, can take a long time and is far less common between sectors other than for very official communiques. Between sector messages wouldn't be used for idle gossip or for getting new propaganda sources.

Eldar, no.

Tyranids, no.

I believe any citizen of Imperium can know about every race mentioned in common, non-specialized imperial primers. They are not top-secret Inquisitorial locked information - every retired soldier, for example, should know about them. And there is three of them - Orcs, Tyranids, Eldar.

Look at this another way - every fresh recrut of IG should be punished if he DON'T know about this three races existence.

Definitely not. Ignorance is the main defence against the temptation of Chaos.

Great. Who is an enemy Agamemnon the Just fights? What powers witches used and why is it so dangerous?

What is more... ecclesiarchy-like: "you should capture witch because it have great power that can be used against you" or "YOU SHOULD CAPTURE WITCH BECAUSE GREAT ENEMY CAN AND WILL USE EVERY ONE OF THEM TO CAPTURE YOUR SOUL!!!"?

MAYBE. I think this is more like "legends say that there was a great civil war, which the Emperor won, before he took to his his Throne." Who the bad guys were... that seems out of scope.

Legends with names works better.

He knows about witches. Details are driven by fear and legends. All witches must be gathered and handed over to the government. I suspect that sanctioned psykers are incredibly rare and the knowledge that they exist and are used is not common,.

Astropaths are not incredibly rare. It's common Imperium-wide connection.

***

Well... let me ask you all a question. Imperium have a great deal of propaganda, misinformation, church brainwashing and so on.

You believe that propaganda, misinformation, church brainwashing don't include:

1. Anything at all about xeno.

2. ANYTHING AT ALL about Great Enemy.

3. Anything at all about legendary history.

What IS it includes?

Eldar are mysterious even to higher up imperial officials. Frequently Imperial leaders can't tell the difference between dark eldar, craftworld eldar and eldar corsairs so I really can't see most citizens knowing anything at all. Aliens are used as generic boogymen which do not require specific descriptions. Run-ins with eldar are also overall pretty rare so even veteran guard with stories to tell about eldar are probably not common.

Nids I would say are actually pretty classified. The Imperium has not really known of their existence for all that long and they are a pretty serious threat. Also since one of the main strategies for stopping them is exterminatus(definitely a classified tactic) the Imperium probably doesn't want to advertise their existence unnecessarily. The general population of planets/sectors nowhere near a hivefleet would have no reason to know of their existence.

Orks are everywhere so there is probably pretty detailed info and stories about them floating around on nearly every world especially from guardsmen.

Witches are dangerous because they can control minds and blow up tanks with their brains and can't always control these reality altering abilities endangering those around them and sometimes turn bad and use these powers against good, emperor fearing, law abiding citizens. They are also hated for being mutants. The specific connections between the warp, chaos and psykers would not be advertised.

Legends with names/details do work better but not when those details could help push more people towards corruption. Also this is the imperium we are talking about. Record keeping over 10,000 years even without the imperiums incredible inefficiency would be difficult. Many details are simply lost entirely or are not widely known because few places still have records going back that far.

On astropaths: Another observation bias. Most stories are about important people therefore they have more access to astropaths and so we get a sense that they are more common than they really are meant to be. Astropaths are pretty rare actually, especially in Askellon where the blackships are not coming as often as they should. Some worlds only have one on the whole planet (Novabella in Seeds of Heresy only had one and he died leaving them with none) They tend to be allocated to the big important organizations and the very powerful. Average citizens are unlikely to ever see an astropath in person because an average citizen isn't important enough to have anything to transmit by astropathic message. They would know what they are though.

1. They would know aliens are bad, dangerous, evil, untrustworthy, monstrous etc. but there is no reason to tell a manufactorum worker what a specific species looks like. A general "fear anything that's different" message is plenty.

2. They know there are heretics and traitors and that sin can manifest as physical mutation and all the usual religious stuff about sin and evil. They would not know that actual evil gods exist or that half the space marines turned traitor at one point.

3. Most citizens are stereotypical dark ages level education or North Korea level education/propaganda infused. They are more likely to know local legends related to their planet and version of the imperial creed, anything from wider galactic history would at best be the religion specific stuff, only the positive stuff and would be buried in lies and half truths with many details changing over time until they no longer resemble the original version at all.

How much within setting are they talked about as slayers of daemons rather than as devote warriors who fought off great evil or Darkness. I feel like the ecclesiarchy would be very metaphorical with the stories for these saints rather than admitting to exactly what the true horrors are.

Of course. But questing is (and it will be rised!) what is that great evil or Darkness.

"Hey, he is a saint, you must venerate him. Why? It's classified!" That's comedy.

I believe there is something about "there is Chaos, great enemy who tries to destroy every living human just because it don't like it; there is Daemons, undescribable terrors who are his disgusting servants, and if YOU will be very bad, they eat you and anybody near you. Your only defence is Emperor holy light. And constant vigilance, because is somebody near you will be very bad, Daemons will come, eat him and everybody near him."

That's not EXACT truth, and there is A GREAT DEAL beneath it. But why shouldn't Ecclesiarchy say that?

On Cadians, I think this is bias due to GW's model line being Cadians and so fluff and stories tend to focus on them a lot. It makes little sense for a sector not to use a home regiment in its own propaganda

Well, I believe that's because Cadia is on the blink of terror stays strong until unspeaking enemies for thousands of years, and their regiments are serving all over the Imperium?

Of course, local regiments are using in propaganda too. Sectoral, subsectoral, planetary. But it's something you can't have too many.

Also Armageddon would be a terrible planet to use for propaganda as it is in shambles (most of the hives cities have been destroyed) and orks are still pouring into the system even with Ghaz having fled.

That little detailes will not mentioned. They are not matter for propaganda. And because communication between planets its unreliable, can take a long time and is far less common between sectors other than for very official communiques, nobody will know this unsettling truth.

Frequently Imperial leaders can't tell the difference between dark eldar, craftworld eldar and eldar corsairs so I really can't see most citizens knowing anything at all.

Of course it's hard to tell the difference. And imperial citizens without any IG experience will not be able to identify an Eldar when he see one. But he knows about their existence , not more.

Nids I would say are actually pretty classified.

They are in the imperial common manuals.

Why should Imperium hide their existence after all? Not their power, or their scale, or main method to fight with them - their MERE EXISTENCE?

Witches are dangerous because they can control minds and blow up tanks with their brains and can't always control these reality altering abilities endangering those around them and sometimes turn bad and use these powers against good, emperor fearing, law abiding citizens.

"Great. Where can I sign in?"

Many details are simply lost entirely or are not widely known because few places still have records going back that far.

Of course.

Once more, I can't understand why do you thing that name of ArchTraitor and a fact that he is ArchTraitor (in my own headcanon it's not facts but only legends!) is taking anything more with it.

And Horus name as is isn't a source for corruption.

On astropaths: Another observation bias. Most stories are about important people therefore they have more access to astropaths and so we get a sense that they are more common than they really are meant to be. Astropaths are pretty rare actually, especially in Askellon where the blackships are not coming as often as they should.

They are common - such as Imperial Governors are common, even more common. Every planet have one at least, and it's the only possible type of interstellar communication. That's not mean everybody will know astropath when he sees one. But existence of astropathic communication is known.

Most citizens are stereotypical dark ages level education or North Korea level education/propaganda infused.

Most citizens of Imperium are population of great megapolices working on factories or clerks.

Well, I believe it should be pointed to prevent further misunderstanding.

When I say "He knows about..." I mean this exactly. Not "he have seen this at least once". Not "he can operate full information about it". He just knows. He can't differ Genstealer from mutant, but he knows about Tyranides - he just can't link Genstealer with Tyranides, because the latter is something retired soldiers who never seen one too tells in bar or that's give him on Patriotic Lessons in scholas. With cites from Imperial manuals.

I would say everything that is covered in "The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer" should be commonly available propaganda Information. This includes Orcs, Elder, Tyranids, regionally Tau and the Forces of Corruption.

However all of them are only described in very bowed strokes and with very dangers halve-knowledge.

It may be a case of contradictory fluff, but in Dawn of War 2 didn't the Space Marines have to ask an ex death watch marine what the Tyranids were? I may be wrong, it has been a long time since I played it.

Also, its not so unreasonable that the common man might know snippets about Horus, he might be the Satan figure in the imperial creed. They may not know WHAT he was or WHY he turned, only that he did. Or perhaps they do know at least that he was a space marine, after all, Christianity talks of Lucifer as a fallen angel, so its not entirely impossible that the Ecclesiarchy might preach a similar concept.

And on the topic of chaos, its pretty well certain that they don't know about it. At most they will have heard cautionary tales of the corruption that comes from turning away from the Emperor.

It may be a case of contradictory fluff, but in Dawn of War 2 didn't the Space Marines have to ask an ex death watch marine what the Tyranids were? I may be wrong, it has been a long time since I played it.

Of course. But questing is (and it will be rised!) what is that great evil or Darkness.

"Hey, he is a saint, you must venerate him. Why? It's classified!" That's comedy.

I believe there is something about "there is Chaos, great enemy who tries to destroy every living human just because it don't like it; there is Daemons, undescribable terrors who are his disgusting servants, and if YOU will be very bad, they eat you and anybody near you. Your only defence is Emperor holy light. And constant vigilance, because is somebody near you will be very bad, Daemons will come, eat him and everybody near him."

That's not EXACT truth, and there is A GREAT DEAL beneath it. But why shouldn't Ecclesiarchy say that?

Well, I believe that's because Cadia is on the blink of terror stays strong until unspeaking enemies for thousands of years, and their regiments are serving all over the Imperium?

Of course, local regiments are using in propaganda too. Sectoral, subsectoral, planetary. But it's something you can't have too many.

That little detailes will not mentioned. They are not matter for propaganda. And because communication between planets its unreliable, can take a long time and is far less common between sectors other than for very official communiques, nobody will know this unsettling truth.

To clarify when I say "common citizen" I mean things like manufactorum works, dock workers, barkeeps, the corner drug dealer, low level scribes etc. Absolutely no one with the capacity to become a PC or to be one of the main characters in a book. Clarifying this might help the discussion in general.

People in the 41st millennium are not like first world modern day humans. They exist in the most repressive regime humanity has ever seen. They are uneducated and are taught all their lives to not ask questions and are not taught critical thinking skills. Asking questions like that would quickly get you labeled a heretic. The why would be given as he was a brave devote warrior who defended the faithful from heresy. They may even rewrite history from daemons to heretics or mutants for easy digestion for the masses. Only heretics would then think "oh huh I wonder what kind of heresy he fought against, I sure do like hearing about different kinds of heresy". Fully admitting daemons exist would lend more weight to heretics beliefs which could lead to more people falling in with them. Its better to claim that they are just crazy rather than that they are actually worshiping powerful entities.

I feel like you lack a concept of the scale of the Imperium. It consists of millions of worlds. No one world would be considered important or relevant to the lives of the average citizens on a planet in a completely different sector. This is a government that, through simple misfiled paperwork, has completely forgotten about entire planets. If a Cadian regiment has actually served nearby then sure they could be used in propaganda and any local regiments that served alongside them would probably tell stories about them and spread rumors but even then the Cadain gate wouldn't be known. Its irreverent information to a sector nowhere near it. The Eye of terror would definitely not be known being a giant gateway to a literal daemon filled hell.

When you think about it Cadian fluff doesn't even make sense. Why would a planet under constant siege that is in need of every soldier it can get give away entire regiments for use elsewhere. Seems like their contribution to the tithe would be holding the Cadian gate at all costs.

Again Armageddon is 1 planet amongst millions in a sector half a galaxy away where the war goes poorly. Why would any of that make it a good source of propaganda? In the sector Armageddon is actually in sure it would be well known that Armageddon is under siege because it was an important world on a major trade route and the Imperium would put a positive spin on how the war is going, while rumor would suggest its not going great and the economic effects on the sector would be noticeable.

Appropriate propaganda would consist of local (relatively) successes by guard regiments consisting of people drafted from local planets. By using local events it is more relatable.

Of course it's hard to tell the difference. And imperial citizens without any IG experience will not be able to identify an Eldar when he see one. But he knows about their existence , not more.

They are in the imperial common manuals.

Why should Imperium hide their existence after all? Not their power, or their scale, or main method to fight with them - their MERE EXISTENCE?

Why should they tell them?

With a repressive regime like the Imperium you need to always think about why they would give information to their citizens. There is no reason or benefit to telling people that eldar or nids are a thing. At best there would be rumors and hearsay from ship crews and guardsmen who have had run-ins but little else as there is no benefit to the Imperium in telling its citizens about the super advanced mysterious space elves.

The manuals for sectors that haven't had to deal with nids very possibly would not mention them.

Witches are dangerous because they can control minds and blow up tanks with their brains and can't always control these reality altering abilities endangering those around them and sometimes turn bad and use these powers against good, emperor fearing, law abiding citizens.

"Great. Where can I sign in?"

Not sure I get your point here.

They are taught psykers are dangerous and often lose control of their abilities and frequently go crazy and mutate horribly. They also know that when psykers are found out they are killed or disappear. Why would they want any of that sort of trouble? No mentions of daemons is necessary in explaining why psykers are dangerous. A madman with a gun is scary, a madman with the ability to kill dozens of people with just his brain, possibly even just by accident is even worse. Even mechanically by the rules daemons are only a small portion of the problem.

Edit: Think about how mutants are hated and feared by a portion of the population in the X-men universe. Its like that but even worse because psykers are far more likely to be crazy and incapable of controlling themselves and the whole population has been specifically told to hate them.

Of course.

Once more, I can't understand why do you thing that name of ArchTraitor and a fact that he is ArchTraitor (in my own headcanon it's not facts but only legends!) is taking anything more with it.

And Horus name as is isn't a source for corruption.

but it provides a thread for an over-curious potentially heretical minds to start tugging on. Pretty much everything about the Horus Heresy is an unnecessary detail. No good can come from telling anyone about it. The Imperium doesn't even like to admit that its own clerics can become corrupt or criminal so they sure wouldn't want to admit the the emperor's sons turned traitor and took half the Imperium with them.

If you think people would start asking why a particular saint is venerated why wouldn't those same people start asking unfortunate questions relating to Horus.

They are common - such as Imperial Governors are common, even more common. Every planet have one at least, and it's the only possible type of interstellar communication. That's not mean everybody will know astropath when he sees one. But existence of astropathic communication is known.

Most citizens of Imperium are population of great megapolices working on factories or clerks.

Well, I believe it should be pointed to prevent further misunderstanding.

When I say "He knows about..." I mean this exactly. Not "he have seen this at least once". Not "he can operate full information about it". He just knows. He can't differ Genstealer from mutant, but he knows about Tyranides - he just can't link Genstealer with Tyranides, because the latter is something retired soldiers who never seen one too tells in bar or that's give him on Patriotic Lessons in scholas. With cites from Imperial manuals.

Knowledge of astropaths and their purpose is widely known, I was not arguing against that. However they are still not common (referring to number of them not knowledge of them). If there was only one phone for every million people on earth right now would you say phones are common? Everybody would still know what a phone is and what its for but very few people would have access to one or even seen one.

Phones in the 1st world right now are common as in nearly everyone has one.

They are very dispersed but there are not a lot of them relative to the overall population. Planetary governors are not common. Sure there are millions of them throughout the imperium but that is not very many compared to the countless billions or even trillions of humans in the galaxy. A citizen is not going to pass by even one planetary governor on the street on his way to work let alone multiples.

By your logic space marines would also be common.

Yes, but these factory workers would be taught nothing more than the basics they need to do their job and survive everyday and their religious teachings. They are sweatshop workers who have probably been doing that job since they were kids and have been taught specifically not to think or question their religious leaders and work superiors.

Repressive regimes do not like thinking, well educated, well informed citizens and therefore do not spread information unless there is a clear benefit and no risk in sharing it.

It may be a case of contradictory fluff, but in Dawn of War 2 didn't the Space Marines have to ask an ex death watch marine what the Tyranids were? I may be wrong, it has been a long time since I played it.

First of all, not exactly "the most". It's oppressive tyrany if you're looking from modern Western megapolice, yeah. But it's not something worse than mid-century Soviet Union was, with "penal psychiatry" and political repressions; even 3rd Reich was worse because it was small and unitarian. Maybe it's something near "1984", but you know "1984" isn't the WORSE place to live in human history.

I feel like you lack a concept of the scale of the Imperium. It consists of millions of worlds. No one world would be considered important or relevant to the lives of the average citizens on a planet in a completely different sector. This is a government that, through simple misfiled paperwork, has completely forgotten about entire planets.

Of course, but how is it matter? You don't need to have Cadia somewhere "near". It can be in that subsector, and maybe on the other side of the Galaxy - but to propagandish communique it's not matter. Well, it's better be on the other side of the Galaxy - no one can catch you on lie! You just need to create good story, that will be put anybody who hear it into tears and make them to be proud they are same race as HEROES OF CADIA THEMSELVES!!!

Yes, of course, you CAN just shoot anybody who ask question. You don't even need to have propaganda then - just shoot everybody. But it's a waste of manpower, so you better create a nice propaganda story that will answer every question.

Same about Armageddon. Everybody in Imperium knows that First, Second and Third Wars for Armageddon was a great victories for Imperium. Why? Because it's something they heard from propaganda machine. They don't know where Armageddon is, "somewhere not here". Why propaganda machine takes that particular places? Well, there can be dozens of causes. But it's better to take real event and create some kind of legend that to imagine legend from nothing. Simpler at least, you don't need to imagine names and locations.

I'm living in a country who created a lot of legends that way. Russian historicans can't say for sure was Panfilov's Twenty-Eight Guardsmen existed and was they fight that particular combat - but they are venerated heroes.

Why, should they tell them?

Well, there is couple of reasons.

You see imperial propaganda don't do their work because they are JUST EVIL (I hope we're agree with it). They do it to have better control.

1st. The main xeno threat that can be encountered by IG is Orks, Eldars (included exiled, corsairs and dark ones) and Tyranides. They can be literally everywhere (with an arrival of splinter hivefleets). Tau will not, or Necrons will not (so they aren't explained in common manuals). And rumors will be, you can't destroy rumors. So it's better to tell citizens about some kind of decandent, weak, dying space elves with some technosorcery that is no near our Holy Technology.

2nd. You need a boogyman after all. You need something you can point and say - they are guilty for <insert here anything>. And just abstract "aliens" is working just bad especially for man who never seen one.

3rd. As I said Orks, Eldars or nids can arrive any world. So it's works better when you're announcing to your population: "hey, guys, that Eldars about who you all read in Scholas and looked in holovid (where our Valorous Guardsman are greatly victorious of course) trys to kill you - take lasgun and join PDF!" that "somebody ailen from outer space goes to kill you". Unknowing have a panic as a result, and we're rational, we don't need that panic.

The manuals for sectors that haven't had to deal with nids very possibly would not mention them.

Of course he is scary. I'm a teen who want to scary my enemies and impress girls. Or I'm a office worker who hate his superior and collegues (and his work and everything at all, well, "Fight Club" give some expression). So it's a point to hope "ah, one day I'll became a psyker - everybody can! - so I'll show them!", and that's exactly kind of thoughts Tzeench wants for his wanna-be cultists.

And let's assume again we're clever propagandists, we don't want it (well, we're on Terra with top clearance, so we know about Tzeench cults). What can we do with it?

We can secret any information about psyker existence or that anybody can became a psyker, but we want people to be totaly vigilant and to give any psyker to the authorities. So we need to tell something about them. So we say that psykers are gaining their power from the source of everything bad that ever existed. And we tell that daemons will come and eat everybody who practice it, just because it's very nature of psy abilities. We indoctinate that's not a common problem as a madman with a rifle is, but it's a sacral matter.

By chance it's true. But we're clever propagandists, we don't lie just to lie.

The Imperium doesn't even like to admit that its own clerics can become corrupt or criminal so they sure wouldn't want to admit the the emperor's sons turned traitor and took half the Imperium with them.

Clerics became bad is bad, sorry for the pun. They are here. Everybody can look at them. They are little. They are everyday. But Horus is another cause.

He was here TEN THOUSANDS YEARS AGO. And he is perfect answer to children.

"- Child, why it's bad to be a traitor for Imperium?

- Because Imperium is something that is vital for our life, sir! Somedays Horus, curse his name, was a betrayer, so he nearly finished the Imperium!

- And who was Horus, curse his name?

- He was beloved son of the Emperor himself, leader of His armies, sir!

- And how did he came to the very thought of betrayal?

- The Greater Enemy of Mankind falsely promised him power more great that powers of Emperor himself, what is impossible, sir!

- And what's happend to him?

- Great heroes of Imperium raised against him, and leaded by the Emperor himself, killed him, sir!

- And what is it teach us?

- That traitors can be everywhere, that nobody is beyond rightful suspicion, and we should be constantly vigilant to catch a traitor before it's too late, sir! And if we will, no traitor can overpower the power of Mankind leaded by Emperor Himself, no matter how high he is! And that betrayal is futile, so even Horus, curse his name, who was trusted son of the Emperor himself, who commanded a greatest Imperial army ever was, empowered by the Greater Enemy of Mankind, was defeated, sir!

- Good boy. Tell your parents I'm pleased with you."

That's simple, useful and, well, it's create some additional layer of indoctrination. Heretics will not seduce somebody just by "revealing a truth".

By your logic space marines would also be common.

Well, when you're telling about knowledge common it is something that can be known by anybody. Anybody knows about Planetary Governors, Astropaths or Space Marines (maybe, I'm not so sure).

So astopaths are common this way - nobody will be surprised if you tell him about astropath. Or PG. Or Space Marine.

Yes, but these factory workers would be taught nothing more than the basics they need to do their job and survive everyday and their religious teachings. They are sweatshop workers who have probably been doing that job since they were kids and have been taught specifically not to think or question their religious leaders and work superiors.

Repressive regimes do not like thinking, well educated, well informed citizens and therefore do not spread information unless there is a clear benefit and no risk in sharing it.

But there is common benefit about education.

First of all, better educated citizen can be used more ways. Second, that's best way to brainwash - starting from scolas.

That's why repressive regimes all over the world created good centralized education system, from Hitler's Germany to Stalin's USSR. That's why Jesuits says "give us a child before his 6th, and we make a human from him".

But you will not teach this childern to think , oh no. You will feed him a lot of propaganda, with names and long boring descriptions, and you will demand him to answer it by heart in every hour of day or night. And you will know obvious questions that will be rised ("teacher, why ...?") and make some good answers. You will teach him this answers and teach him basic counter-answers with looking good counter-counter-answers. And you will never let him understand that he is ignorant. Quite the opposite, he should believes he have all the answers.

First of all, not exactly "the most". It's oppressive tyrany if you're looking from modern Western megapolice, yeah. But it's not something worse than mid-century Soviet Union was, with "penal psychiatry" and political repressions; even 3rd Reich was worse because it was small and unitarian. Maybe it's something near "1984", but you know "1984" isn't the WORSE place to live in human history.

Of course, but how is it matter? You don't need to have Cadia somewhere "near". It can be in that subsector, and maybe on the other side of the Galaxy - but to propagandish communique it's not matter. Well, it's better be on the other side of the Galaxy - no one can catch you on lie! You just need to create good story, that will be put anybody who hear it into tears and make them to be proud they are same race as HEROES OF CADIA THEMSELVES!!!

Yes, of course, you CAN just shoot anybody who ask question. You don't even need to have propaganda then - just shoot everybody. But it's a waste of manpower, so you better create a nice propaganda story that will answer every question.

Same about Armageddon. Everybody in Imperium knows that First, Second and Third Wars for Armageddon was a great victories for Imperium. Why? Because it's something they heard from propaganda machine. They don't know where Armageddon is, "somewhere not here". Why propaganda machine takes that particular places? Well, there can be dozens of causes. But it's better to take real event and create some kind of legend that to imagine legend from nothing. Simpler at least, you don't need to imagine names and locations.

I'm living in a country who created a lot of legends that way. Russian historicans can't say for sure was Panfilov's Twenty-Eight Guardsmen existed and was they fight that particular combat - but they are venerated heroes.

Well, there is couple of reasons.

You see imperial propaganda don't do their work because they are JUST EVIL (I hope we're agree with it). They do it to have better control.

1st. The main xeno threat that can be encountered by IG is Orks, Eldars (included exiled, corsairs and dark ones) and Tyranides. They can be literally everywhere (with an arrival of splinter hivefleets). Tau will not, or Necrons will not (so they aren't explained in common manuals). And rumors will be, you can't destroy rumors. So it's better to tell citizens about some kind of decandent, weak, dying space elves with some technosorcery that is no near our Holy Technology.

2nd. You need a boogyman after all. You need something you can point and say - they are guilty for <insert here anything>. And just abstract "aliens" is working just bad especially for man who never seen one.

3rd. As I said Orks, Eldars or nids can arrive any world. So it's works better when you're announcing to your population: "hey, guys, that Eldars about who you all read in Scholas and looked in holovid (where our Valorous Guardsman are greatly victorious of course) trys to kill you - take lasgun and join PDF!" that "somebody ailen from outer space goes to kill you". Unknowing have a panic as a result, and we're rational, we don't need that panic.

Direct quote from the inside cover of every 40k rulebook for at least 4 editions. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable". So its not just the worst regime ever its the worst imaginable according to this.

You do get the the Imperium is massive and that both travel and communication are terribly inefficient right? The state of planets many sectors away is not relevant information to be transmitted to other sectors unless they are begging for help. It is a huge waste of astropath resources and would be unimaginably complicated to transmit the status of every world in the imperium to every other world in the imperium or even to just transmit highlights. Most people on earth now don't know much of whats going on elsewhere in the world except in how it relates to them so why would people on a different planet care about people on a completely different planet hundreds of light years away.

Its much more inspiring to hear of the successes of the guardsmen drawn from your own planet and their accomplishments or the ones who were victorious nearby protecting your world from future invasion rather than the ones from a planet so far away you can't comprehend the distance and who may have such a different society as to be unrecognizable to you.

Not everyone in the Imperium would know about Armageddon! In a galaxy filled with constant war nothing makes Armageddon special to anything but the sector its in and to us readers/players! It is one planet out of millions and one war out of probably hundreds of thousands being waged across the galaxy. It is meaningless in the grand scheme. The planet is only known to us as readers and players because it is a good fluff example of orks vs. guard. Plus the third war is not even done yet. Ghaz left but orks still pour into the system and the timeline ends on a stalemate. Not to mention that the planet has been devastated and the trade route it was important to all but ruined.

Regular citizens do not go to scholas. Only people meant for greater purpose in one of the adeptas get any education on that level.

The manuals for sectors that haven't had to deal with nids very possibly would not mention them.

Imperial Primers are Imperium-wide. They are printed and then sended to the regiments all over the Imperium. Easier to put such kind of info to every primer that have a head-ache with multiple versions.

A madman with a gun is scary, a madman with the ability to kill dozens of people with just his brain, possibly even just by accident is even worse.

Of course he is scary. I'm a teen who want to scary my enemies and impress girls. Or I'm a office worker who hate his superior and collegues (and his work and everything at all, well, "Fight Club" give some expression). So it's a point to hope "ah, one day I'll became a psyker - everybody can! - so I'll show them!", and that's exactly kind of thoughts Tzeench wants for his wanna-be cultists.

And let's assume again we're clever propagandists, we don't want it (well, we're on Terra with top clearance, so we know about Tzeench cults). What can we do with it?

We can secret any information about psyker existence or that anybody can became a psyker, but we want people to be totaly vigilant and to give any psyker to the authorities. So we need to tell something about them. So we say that psykers are gaining their power from the source of everything bad that ever existed. And we tell that daemons will come and eat everybody who practice it, just because it's very nature of psy abilities. We indoctinate that's not a common problem as a madman with a rifle is, but it's a sacral matter.

By chance it's true. But we're clever propagandists, we don't lie just to lie.

Primers can't be identical Imperium-wide. Guardsmen vary so vastly between regiments that not even the equipment section would be remotely useful without local Munitorum editing. Its not like they are all printed in one central location and shipped everywhere in the imperium from that one place.

That is not remotely how psykers are portrayed in any fluff anywhere. They are portrayed like how school and theater mass shooters are portrayed in the US or how terrorists are portrayed, not "oh cool, I wish I could do that to impress a girl". Its more like "Ahh dangerous unregulated psycho!" and "keep an eye out for mental health issues mixed with gun ownership". Anybody who thinks about psykers the way you wrote there are already huge heretics! Being a psyker is generally considered a horrible curse.

Daemons are not necessary to make someone dangerous, crazy and scary.

Another way to look at it goes back to my xmen example. All psykers are like Rogue or Cyclops. Sure they have incredible power but the uncontrollable nature of their powers makes it about as much of a curse. It makes them a danger to themselves and the ones around them. With pyskers its this x1000.

The stuff on psykers isn't even propaganda. It leaves out details but the fact that they are often crazy and dangerous and more likely to commit heresy is 100% true. Daemons aren't even the cause of these issues most of the time but just general exposure to the warp and lack of control of their abilities.

Clerics became bad is bad, sorry for the pun. They are here. Everybody can look at them. They are little. They are everyday. But Horus is another cause.

He was here TEN THOUSANDS YEARS AGO. And he is perfect answer to children.

"- Child, why it's bad to be a traitor for Imperium?

- Because Imperium is something that is vital for our life, sir! Somedays Horus, curse his name, was a betrayer, so he nearly finished the Imperium!

- And who was Horus, curse his name?

- He was beloved son of the Emperor himself, leader of His armies, sir!

- And how did he came to the very thought of betrayal?

- The Greater Enemy of Mankind falsely promised him power more great that powers of Emperor himself, what is impossible, sir!

- And what's happend to him?

- Great heroes of Imperium raised against him, and leaded by the Emperor himself, killed him, sir!

- And what is it teach us?

- That traitors can be everywhere, that nobody is beyond rightful suspicion, and we should be constantly vigilant to catch a traitor before it's too late, sir! And if we will, no traitor can overpower the power of Mankind leaded by Emperor Himself, no matter how high he is! And that betrayal is futile, so even Horus, curse his name, who was trusted son of the Emperor himself, who commanded a greatest Imperial army ever was, empowered by the Greater Enemy of Mankind, was defeated, sir!

- Good boy. Tell your parents I'm pleased with you."

That's simple, useful and, well, it's create some additional layer of indoctrination. Heretics will not seduce somebody just by "revealing a truth".

The Imperium and ministorum in particular are fanatics. Fanatics do not like to admit to being incorrect or to the idea that they aren't always perfect. They would not want average citizens to realize that holy men are fallible as that could lead to a crisis of faith. It would be like a catholic finding out the pope was a jack the ripper level serial killer.

Your example there sounds more like what would occur in a schola progenium class. Schola Progenium students are not average citizens but those being prepared for service to the adeptas or other higher callings.

Well, when you're telling about knowledge common it is something that can be known by anybody. Anybody knows about Planetary Governors, Astropaths or Space Marines (maybe, I'm not so sure).

So astopaths are common this way - nobody will be surprised if you tell him about astropath. Or PG. Or Space Marine.

Sorry this seems to be a communication error between us. When I used common there I was not using it as short hand for common knowledge.

I am using it in terms of relative numbers and distribution throughout the Imperium. So for example a guardsmen is a common sight. There are lots of them and they are everywhere. Space marines/astropaths/governors are not common as there are not very many of them relative to the size and scope of the Imperium. The existence of all of them is common knowledge however.

So I was saying the existence and use of astropaths are common knowledge but they themselves are not common. Does make sense? Hope the distinction is more clear now.

Space marines would be known. No details but at least as the emperor's angels of death, ultimate infallible warriors. They are a good source of propaganda as they can truly show off the might of mankind and the Emperor. Most of the time guardsmen are portrayed as being completely in awe when they see a space marine in person.

But there is common benefit about education.

First of all, better educated citizen can be used more ways. Second, that's best way to brainwash - starting from scolas.

That's why repressive regimes all over the world created good centralized education system, from Hitler's Germany to Stalin's USSR. That's why Jesuits says "give us a child before his 6th, and we make a human from him".

But you will not teach this childern to think , oh no. You will feed him a lot of propaganda, with names and long boring descriptions, and you will demand him to answer it by heart in every hour of day or night. And you will know obvious questions that will be rised ("teacher, why ...?") and make some good answers. You will teach him this answers and teach him basic counter-answers with looking good counter-counter-answers. And you will never let him understand that he is ignorant. Quite the opposite, he should believes he have all the answers.

What you're describing is represented by the Schola Progenium and/or the private educations received by people deemed important (like highborn children, Rogue Trader families or the children of adeptus personnel). Children taken from respectable blood lines are educated/indoctrinated to be of service to imperial institutions and are taught much like what you describe. These are not what I would consider average citizens. Average Imperial citizens are poor uneducated downtrodden peasants.

Average citizens do not receive formal education the way we think of it. Drawing from the medieval motifs in 40k, citizens generally are taught to do one job or trade (how to farm, how to blacksmith, how to cobble, how to use manufactorum device, how to copy the same book by hand over and over, etc.) and they are often born into that life.

I'd hold up the uplifting primer as a pretty good summary of what you can expect people without forbidden lore xenos but any kind of meaningful off-world contact regularly to know.

Interms of chaos - the Fede Imperials (think the 40k Lord's Prayer ) ibcludes a line about the begetting of daemons, so their existende is not denied. What is denied is the existence of gods in the warp and anything about their natures.

Direct quote from the inside cover of every 40k rulebook for at least 4 editions. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable". So its not just the worst regime ever its the worst imaginable according to this.

Yes. That's why only mean for common man to know about another planet state is propaganda. And this propaganda is great.

You can't just say in propaganda - "hey, somewhere not here some people you never know and never will know killed some orks". You will tell about great victory and flawless heroes. Communications issues are helping propaganda, not disturb it (well, until you can include propaganda materials into communication packages - that imperium officials definitly can). Yes, people who hear this propaganda never know where Armageddon or Cadia is, and never will visit it. That's even better for propaganda! Human with critical mind can stand up and says - "hey, men! you telling us about some irrelevant place, why should we even care about it?! what about our ration shortage?" Well... there is a lot of bad things that can happen with a human with critical mind.

Mankind have their brains washed with "great and brave mankind, destined to rule the stars". They ARE believe this. And Cadia or Armageddon play this string. Patriotic string, if I can present an analogue.

Mark Twain, I believed, described one time situation when USA takes some god-forgotten island in Pacific Ocean, that no USA citizen can point on the map or descibe it's importance, and how press is full of enthusiasm. Or Pratchett's Leshp in "Jingo" novel - nobody can describe why Leshp is important, but people ready to spill their blood for it.

That is not remotely how psykers are portrayed in any fluff anywhere. They are portrayed like how school and theater mass shooters are portrayed in the US or how terrorists are portrayed, not "oh cool, I wish I could do that to impress a girl". Its more like "Ahh dangerous unregulated psycho!" and "keep an eye out for mental health issues mixed with gun ownership". Anybody who thinks about psykers the way you wrote there are already huge heretics! Being a psyker is generally considered a horrible curse.

Wait. You really want to say that it's a terrible curse to have an ability to control minds or destroy tanks by your will? I'm afraid it's hard to believe. If you just tell "they all are becoming mad!", you better have to say something WHY they will. Just too prevent people invent answers themselves - it's a bad practice.

The Imperium and ministorum in particular are fanatics. Fanatics do not like to admit to being incorrect or to the idea that they aren't always perfect.

Oh, but they are perfect. Horus, sometimes milleniums ago, was not (angels and apostoles were not), but THEY are.

I believe if Horus was alive cause will be another. But he is not. For ten damned thousand years.

Another way to look at it goes back to my xmen example. All psykers are like Rogue or Cyclops. Sure they have incredible power but the uncontrollable nature of their powers makes it about as much of a curse. It makes them a danger to themselves and the ones around them. With pyskers its this x1000.

Do you know how many teens want to be Rogue or Cyclops?! That's why they are recurring characters after all.

Sorry this seems to be a communication error between us. When I used common there I was not using it as short hand for common knowledge.

But I'm speaking about common knowlege. It's, well, written in the head of the post.

Regular citizens do not go to scholas. Only people meant for greater purpose in one of the adeptas get any education on that level.

I believed there is some kind of "sunday scholas" for low-life. Somewhere they should be brainwashed with Imperial Credo and how important is to be killed for the Emperor. And this is not good idea to trust in parents for such delicate issue! Well, it's not a good idea to trust in anybody for anything.

Primers can't be identical Imperium-wide. Guardsmen vary so vastly between regiments that not even the equipment section would be remotely useful without local Munitorum editing. Its not like they are all printed in one central location and shipped everywhere in the imperium from that one place.

But they _are_. Yes, somewhere you find yourself in a situation when your regiment is not something can be explained by primer. Problems, soldier? tell your Commisar about it. Maybe he will listen.

That's an only way to make IG regiments able to work together, after all.

Direct quote from the inside cover of every 40k rulebook for at least 4 editions. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable". So its not just the worst regime ever its the worst imaginable according to this.

I believe it's what developers think. Well... they described not-so-bad regime. Especially considering there is at least million regimes.

Not an utopia, and not the best place to live. But world knows worse. Well, world never knows a regime killing billions of it's own citizens just to hide something, but world never knows a regime with billions of it's own citizens.

The Imperium commits regular genocide against its own people, brainwashes all its citizens, lobotomizes its own citizens (servitors) conscripts soldiers against their will, wealth inequality is basically as bad as is possible, Imperial justice is a joke, no regard for the health or lives of their citizens or the environment of most of their worlds. How is this not the worst regime imaginable? It literally does every horrible thing that past regimes have done that we consider to be terrible.

You do get the the Imperium is massive and that both travel and communication are terribly inefficient right? The state of planets many sectors away is not relevant information to be transmitted to other sectors unless they are begging for help.

Yes. That's why only mean for common man to know about another planet state is propaganda. And this propaganda is great.

You can't just say in propaganda - "hey, somewhere not here some people you never know and never will know killed some orks". You will tell about great victory and flawless heroes. Communications issues are helping propaganda, not disturb it. Yes, people who hear this propaganda never know where Armageddon or Cadia is, and never will visit it. That's even better for propaganda! Human with critical mind can stand up and says - "hey, men! you telling us about some irrelevant place, why should we even care about it?! what about our ration shortage?" Well... there is a lot of bad things that can happen with a human with critical mind.

Mankind have their brains washed with "great and brave mankind, destined to rule the stars". They ARE belive this. And Cadia or Armageddon play this string. Patriotic string, if I can present an analogue.

Mark Twain, I believed, described one time situation when USA takes some god-forgotten island in Pacific Ocean, that no USA citizen can point on the map or descibe it's importance, and how press is full of enthusiasm. Or Pratchett Leshp in "Jingo" novel - nobody can describe why Leshp is important, but people ready to spill their blood for it.

It would take the message being relayed through many astropaths (possibly dozens) to get news from say Cadia to Askellon. If the people aren't going to know where the place is then why bring it up at all. "hey, somewhere not here some people you never know and never will know killed some orks" - In no way am I arguing this is the right thing to say. What I'm saying is rather than the Imperium talking about Armageddon in the Askellon sector as an example of how amazing guard are at killing orks, why not use a more local victory against the orks. Its logistically easier to provide awe inspiring details of the battles and easier for people to get behind and connect to a local victory. The news is more powerful if it is local.

I'm saying why bother when they can use a local source of propaganda. There are certain to be far more local guard regiments and more local campaigns to use as propaganda. The only reason as readers and players we favor cadia over the idea of other regiments is because they are the tabletop guard army with models so GW has over emphasized them in the fluff. It is a reader bias. Its like using the ultra marines as propaganda in the home star system of the space wolves. Why not just use the space wolves?

That is not remotely how psykers are portrayed in any fluff anywhere. They are portrayed like how school and theater mass shooters are portrayed in the US or how terrorists are portrayed, not "oh cool, I wish I could do that to impress a girl". Its more like "Ahh dangerous unregulated psycho!" and "keep an eye out for mental health issues mixed with gun ownership". Anybody who thinks about psykers the way you wrote there are already huge heretics! Being a psyker is generally considered a horrible curse.

Wait. You really want to say that it's a terrible curse to have an ability to control minds or destroy tanks by your will? I'm afraid it's hard to believe. If you just tell "they all are becoming mad!", you better have to say something WHY they will. Just too prevent people invent answers themselves - it's a bad practice.

I'm just telling you what the fluff says that the Imperium tells its citizens about psykers. The ability to control minds and destroy tanks isn't a curse but it is a curse to acidentally turn off gravity and kill yourself and everyone you love around you, or to cause all the nearby food to spoil in an area already suffering a famine, or to cause crazy "hallucinations" (visions of the warp) to everyone around you or just generally going crazy and possibly taking a crowd with you or to blink out of reality or to electrocute yourself or to mutate uncontrolablly etc. Its also a curse to be taken away from your family and friends in the middle of the night to either locked away and eventually be fed to the golden throne because you can slightly sense other emotions or to be taken away and forced to train and then serve essentially as a slave somewhere. Its a curse that because of how people fear you and are disgusted by you that if you use your natural abilities in public it might get you burned at the stake or stoned to death. Astropaths lose their eyes and often die young from the strain placed on them even with juvinate treatments. Being a psyker is not all superpowers and rainbows.

Another way to look at it goes back to my xmen example. All psykers are like Rogue or Cyclops. Sure they have incredible power but the uncontrollable nature of their powers makes it about as much of a curse. It makes them a danger to themselves and the ones around them. With pyskers its this x1000.

Do you know how many teens want to be Rogue or Cyclops?! That's why they are recurring characters after all.

Really people want to be incabale of touching another person without causing horrible crippling pain or to have to constantly wear something on your face to avoid blowing up everything you look at, plus then suffering from all the bigotry against mutants?! I did say the downsides to being a psyker are 1000x worse than that and it already sounds pretty terrible.

I don't think anyone claims they want to be King Midas. Does that example work better?

Sorry this seems to be a communication error between us. When I used common there I was not using it as short hand for common knowledge.

But I'm speaking about common knowlege. It's, well, written in the head of the post.

You said astropaths were common in response to a post that said "I suspect that sanctioned psykers are incredibly rare and the knowledge that they exist and are used is not common" . I assumed you were responding to that first part "I suspect sanctioned psykers are incredibly rare", which based on context, was using rare in the same sense I was using common in my later posts. But it now appears you were responding to the part that says "knowledge that they exist and are used is not common"

So as I said miscommunication.

Regular citizens do not go to scholas. Only people meant for greater purpose in one of the adeptas get any education on that level.

But it's bad. Not because it's not liberal, of course. You are wasting the best way to control the mind. If you don't make people think one way, they will do it couple of ways. And this should not be allowed.

I believed there is some kind of "sunday scholas" for low-life. Somewhere they should be brainwashed with Imperial Credo and how important is to be killed for the Emperor. And this is not good idea to trust in parents for such delicate issue! Well, it's not a good idea to trust in anybody for anything.

It may not make much sense but the fluff very clearly indicates that the Imperium favors ignorance in its citizens. It still tells them what to think and how to act it just also says don't ask why. Even the emperor thought the best way to handle chaos was to keep everyone in the dark about it as much as possible. Obviously didn't work out too well for him but if he could make that mistake obviously the current imperial culture could.

There would possibly be regular church services and so maybe some kind of sunday school. Depends on the planet. The imperial creed is not a single unified belief system. It has some core beliefs that all versions must adhere to but every planet has its own religious traditions and stories and practices mixed in to those core beliefs. The imperial creed absorbs other religions to make converting locals easier. Many different religions all worshiping the same God-Emperor. So religious teachings on most worlds would focus on these local traditions and stories and their local saints but might leave out stuff like Horus.

Primers can't be identical Imperium-wide. Guardsmen vary so vastly between regiments that not even the equipment section would be remotely useful without local Munitorum editing. Its not like they are all printed in one central location and shipped everywhere in the imperium from that one place.

But they _are_. Yes, somewhere you find yourself in a situation when your regiment is not something can be explained by primer. Problems, soldier? tell your Commisar about it. Maybe he will listen.

That's an only way to make IG regiments able to work together, after all.

On the topic of the Primers: I've have not seen anything explicitly stating they are all exactly the same everywhere.

This was on Lexicanum for what its worth: "The current, revised edition was published in 945. M41 , ^[1x] although a variant issued to Imperial forces tasked with fighting in the Damocles Gulf also exists."

The word variant and the fact that it indicates there are different editions implies that they are not necessarily all identical so there could conceivably be other variants as well. The Imperium is too large for all the primers that are produced to be published and printed in the same exact place. It would be impossible to ship them across the Imperium all from one planet. So assuming they must be printed at least on a sector by sector basis that leaves room for local adjustments.

The difference between the variants is the Damocles Gulf version includes information on the Tau while the other doesn't. With a local difference like that it is reasonable to say that some variants may leave out the tyranids if there is no hive fleet nearby.

The Imperium commits regular genocide against its own people, brainwashes all its citizens, lobotomizes its own citizens (servitors) conscripts soldiers against their will, wealth inequality is basically as bad as is possible, Imperial justice is a joke, no regard for the health or lives of their citizens or the environment of most of their worlds. How is this not the worst regime imaginable? It literally does every horrible thing that past regimes have done that we consider to be terrible.

It would take the message being relayed through many astropaths (possibly dozens) to get news from say Cadia to Askellon.

Heh. I believe you don't get what is "propaganda" means.

That message will be relayed from Cadia to Terra. As every report message will. So on Terra it will be readed (in some time), analyzed and transfered to "Officio Propaganda", or how this Administratum division is named. There it will be analyzed again, and, it time (year or two, I believe), will be created some kind of propaganda resume. That resume will be included to every package going from decade (for example) based message every sector gets from central authority. News? Who the hell need news ? The least used word in soviet press was "yesterday". Nothing happened "yesterday".

What I'm saying is rather than the Imperium talking about Armageddon in the Askellon sector as an example of how amazing guard are at killing orks, why not use a more local victory against the orks.

Because it's not any real difference for Calixian (sorry, I prefer 1st DH sector, but it's true for Ascellon I believe) to have a piece of propaganda about combat with orcs on Kulth or Armageddon. Both are "somewhere not here".

But Armageddon is a place that everybody know (orks included). Why? Because sometime after First War somebody of Terra decided that Armageddon can be good example for propaganda. That's all. Cadia is something another, but only because it's natural choise for pan-Imperial propaganda, not more.

Also you need to remind people that they are living in, well, damned Imperium, that included Cadia and Armageddon. All hail the Great Imperium!

The ability to control minds and destroy tanks isn't a curse but it is a curse to acidentally turn off gravity and kill yourself and everyone you love around you, or to cause all the nearby food to spoil in an area already suffering a famine, or to cause crazy "hallucinations" (visions of the warp) to everyone around you or just generally going crazy and possibly taking a crowd with you or to blink out of reality or to electrocute yourself or to mutate uncontrolablly etc. Its also a curse to be taken away from your family and friends in the middle of the night to either locked away and eventually be fed to the golden throne because you can slightly sense other emotions or to be taken away and forced to train and then serve essentially as a slave somewhere. Its a curse that because of how people fear you and are disgusted by you that if you use your natural abilities in public it might get you burned at the stake or stoned to death. Astropaths lose their eyes and often die young from the strain placed on them even with juvinate treatments.

...and you think saying imperial citizens all above is better for security and vigilance that just saying them "psykers will be eaten by daemons, because their power is Chaos-based"?

You see, admiting existence of Chaos and daemons are not complications for propaganda, quite the opposite. You don't need to invent rational explanations if you can use daemons!

Really people want to be incabale of touching another person without causing horrible crippling pain or to have to constantly wear something on your face to avoid blowing up everything you look at, plus then suffering from all the bigotry against mutants?!

Yup. They are cool. Rogue is the 5th of the best X-mens ever, Cyclope is the first. Between them are Wolverine (practical immortality), Kitty Pride (phasing and pet dragon) and Prof (mental powers enough to control practicaly everybody) - that's not mine opinions (mine are another), but result of voting. Also people love Deadpool, who is crazy and have inoperable cancer torturing him non-stop. Ability to cripple another man by touch or to ruin your school with a sight is not a bug, it's a feature. Especially when as a result you get cool uniform and a position to command a squad. To be quite more serious - there are psycological and sociological researches declaring (persuasively enough for me) that people love characters who can and have a means to solve problems. The best are the characters who have that means "just that", where everybody can. Everybody can suddenly became a mutant. Every damned nerd who is beaten in school.

And this is our happy world. When you are speaking about Imperium... well, what another option imperial low-lifer have to defend himself? "Ok, it's possible I'll became insane and kill all my family. Problem is yesterday some noble was entertaining himself with combat-issue weapons so I have not any family now. What else do you have?"

It may not make much sense but the fluff very clearly indicates that the Imperium favors ignorance in its citizens. It still tells them what to think and how to act it just also says don't ask why.

I can't rid a thought that when you're speak "education" you mean something modern, some kind of process to make a man to think broader.

Look, if a common Imperial citizen is a fanatic for some creed, he has to catch this creed somewhere. If he believes he should not be heretic he should know a doctrine. Where, do you believe, he catch this doctrine?

His education is some kind of classes, where some priest tells him about the Emperor, psykers, Imperium and imperial institutions and so all.

P.S. Just in case. There is a difference between a common question that every child will have when he hear some command or statement and compex philosophical question. Imperium don't like his citizens to have questions, so it gives him common answers, not leaves them to think! That's why fanatics are everywhere. They learned some answers, they had their brainwashing, so they are, well, brainwashed now.

And in your case it looks like "nobody never learn them to think one way, but they all are by unknown means".

Even the emperor thought the best way to handle chaos was to keep everyone in the dark about it as much as possible. Obviously didn't work out too well for him but if he could make that mistake obviously the current imperial culture could.

Emperor explained why, on Nikaea council.

"I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession." and so on. Half of his Ruling is about WHY this ruling is such and not another.

On the topic of the Primers: I've have not seen anything explicitly stating they are all exactly the same everywhere.

Well, it's kind of compicated - I did my kind of research.

First of all, there is more then one primer used by any given Guardsman. There is main, standartized Primer that is declared by Lord Commander Militant, that should be known by any Guardsman or he will be flogged at least. There is some specialized Primers, that ALSO should be known - such as Armored Warfare primer. There are some tactical instructions, such as Tactica Imperialis. And there is local additions to such as Damocles one, that included local specifics. For guardsman and officer convenience they are collected under one cover, but it's different documents. Shortly says, Primer is not the only document Guardsmen needs to know, but it is a document he need to know in any case.

But, of course, they are not printed in ONE typography or ONE planet. A dozens, hundreds maybe, planets get one text with astropath message and print it exactly. If they change a word... well, they better not to. They are changing, of course, but each time they are changing another text should be written, approved by Lord Commander Militant, another message should reach typographies, another exemplars of Primers should be given to EVERY Guardsmen,,, so that's not something that happens very often, so to say. Today, for example, used only 960th edition, that is not so great for 10 thousand years. Not so small too, of course.

And, well, there is a stating you search just in the headline of the Primer, in explanation what is it. "The Benedictions of Emperor, Inspiration Source and Uplifting Creeds for all Infantryman... ". Selection is mine.

And problem with Tyranids is that splinter fleets can be everywhere, not to mention their ability to attack from outside Galaxy plane. I believed previous edition of Primer didn't include Tyranids, and, maybe, if Tau became imperial-wide threat ( "This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose which functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale", so it's speaks about nids), two or three editions later they will appear in Primer as well.

At this point, I see a lot of variance between what different people think the average imperial citizen should know about anything.

Sometimes I wonder if its better to basically say "here's the primer i feel the inquisitor would give his acolytes when they entered service" because the average or median imperial citizen a menial laborer with no schooling and half the time not even literate. You have to figure out what you want players to know in character, but the more easily found fluff that's denied by fiat of "standard imperial citizen" the more likely people are going to meta-game around it, intentionally or not.

It could also be a sign of my limited ability to separate myself from my characters and mean I'm a bad roleplayer when i can't willingly disbelieve what i see and hear described to me based on the idea that my "character" shouldn't know what they are seeing... considering i got told to stop meta-gaming, when I was not even trying to. I don't know what to do then.