At the absolute basic level, assuming you let Imperials and Scum take the GR75 until the Gozanti comes out, (and maybe Scum the CR90) what if you just gave players ten extra points for each epic point thir list included? Maybe down it to 5 while there's still a dearth of Epic options, but this gives nice incentive while applying equally, not involving crazy gameplay changes, and generally being easy to implement. Just reflects that epic ships aren't quite as efficient.

Sure someone might grab two bone stock battering ram GR75s for effectively 20/40 points...but then they have to maneuver their epic swarm around two lumbering space whales. Don't think it would be too game breaking, especially when everyone has access to their own pair of proper epics.

I played a couple of epic games, and the huge ships were just way too fragile. Don't know if there were any changes to the way huge ships receive damage (wasn't following the epic evolution, if there was one), but unless there is/was a change it makes no sense to take a huge ship, instead spend those points on fighters. I ripped corvettes apart, more than once, with a bunch of interceptors (fastest was 2 turns of fire from 6 interceptors). And it doesn't take interceptors several rounds to get across the table to attack, they can be there in turn 2 if they want to!

I like the idea of Epic games, so next time we play epic I will try out a house rule where all primary weapon attacks from small and large ship have to discard halve the amount of dice showing hits (round up), always removing crits first. That will make it absolutely necessary to bring secondary weapons, like missiles or torpedoes (I know, cannons will also work), just to be able to deal damage to the huge. The game will then get kind of objectives for both side: Rebels destroying the "Heavy Weapons/Bombers" of the opponent, while at the same time the opponent has to guard his damage dealers. No more Interceptor etc spamming.

Hmmmmmm, I was thinking quite the same:

Double both hull and shields of huge ships. Then double the Attack dice of designated ordnance [Torpedos] only when used against huge ships. Any other attack rolls normal dice.

And give the huge ships a seperate amount of points they can be bought and equipped with apart from the regular small-large-list you're building for the game...

ok, so you pick specific weapons (torpedoes, missiles?) and buff them, to be able to overcome the bonus you give the huge. But doubling the attack dice is not as effective as doubling hull+shields, so you end up with a much stronger huge ship even against torpedoes. And since you don't do anything about the crits spamming is still best way I'd say (it might take my interceptors 4 turns instead of 3 to kill the corvette then, but the crits do lot of bad things and spamming ensures that I deal those crits).

I wanted something easy to remember and I wanted to get rid of the insane crits (a fighters primary weapon is not able to reliably damage/destroy another flimsy fighter, but it is all the sudden strong enough to punch deep into the hull of a huge ship to destroy vital systems...).

Maybe do something similar like in armada.

Armada you have 200 pts in ships you can take, and 100 in squadrons

So maybe epic you get 135 pts for choosing your huge ship/upgrades and 165 in escorts

I know at least once the Raider is out friendly games both sides will have one epic ship. I mean people will want to use them

However if FFG ever did decide to support epic tournament play I fear that it'll just become a huge dogfighting match with no huge ship on the table.

Some would try, but honestly I think if they were to get matched up against a spam of cheap secondary weapons carrier, it would be a uphill battle.

And as pointed out, once crits start getting through which can be pretty fast well it's a huge uphill battle.

Maybe another option for tournament play would be add some kind of scenerio that may reward players for using epic ships. Thus making it more advantageous to those who bring them vs those who don't

I saw a few tantive list suggestions up previously but it was immediately obvious to me that some of them would not pass muster. Again not enough accuracy due to not having Han Solo or the like. An easy of pick off by concentrated Jonus swarm fire to the fighters. Cannot deal enough damage to kill 6 hull ships without taking a crap ton of damage off the return fire.

Here's another thing I noticed in epic. It seems the space doesn't become as usable. Especially in the short side set up by the rules. I put nearly no thought in comparison to a normal game about my moves in epic. Does anyone else get the same feeling? Too little distance too much British line formation?

Somebody asked and I'm here to put in two cents. We play Epic a fair bit, though it's been awhile. The huge ship's are very tricky to build, fly, and strategize around. But they can be awesome in skilled hands. I've seen many games go to the corvette just thanks to its support. The range modifier change helped it immensely. The transport is utter crud at the moment and should never be taken. Just think of it as a TIE advanced prior to buff. Yes swarms have some great advantages but that's why I constantly repeat my self that you should be bringing Assault Missiles in twos or threes on solid carriers if your going to play at all. If for no other reason than THERE'S 300(+) POINTS IN TWO THIRDS THE SPACE TO PLAY THAT MANY! /rant. It amazes me how many games I'll walk past in Epic and neither team has done more than a single AM. Like really? In Epic its an auto include two of. #killalltheeverything. Even if they do bring lock out shuttle or heavier bodies.

Again just two cents. Don't lazer me bro.

The problem is that the epic ships are too expensive compared how many fighters that can be included for the same cost.

I think that the obvious immediate solution is to require the inclusion of at least 1 epic ship on each side.

And I'd be out. I still don't get the big deal about epic. I already don't care much for normal turret ships, but Epic ships are worse, just big bricks that float across the board firing in almost any directions. The only thing they seem good for, to me, are the upgrade cards and a desk ornament, but they're even too large for that.

And the scale. It's atrocious. All I see when they hit the board is a mismatch between them and the fighters. Seriously why not play Armada?

Armada absolutely rocks, it is such a brilliant design (but here there are some serious scale issues as well).. .. But there still is something about dogfighting with fighters around big ships... I really enjoyed the campaign that came with the CR-90 ..

I saw a few tantive list suggestions up previously but it was immediately obvious to me that some of them would not pass muster. Again not enough accuracy due to not having Han Solo or the like. An easy of pick off by concentrated Jonus swarm fire to the fighters. Cannot deal enough damage to kill 6 hull ships without taking a crap ton of damage off the return fire.

Here's another thing I noticed in epic. It seems the space doesn't become as usable. Especially in the short side set up by the rules. I put nearly no thought in comparison to a normal game about my moves in epic. Does anyone else get the same feeling? Too little distance too much British line formation?

Somebody asked and I'm here to put in two cents. We play Epic a fair bit, though it's been awhile. The huge ship's are very tricky to build, fly, and strategize around. But they can be awesome in skilled hands. I've seen many games go to the corvette just thanks to its support. The range modifier change helped it immensely. The transport is utter crud at the moment and should never be taken. Just think of it as a TIE advanced prior to buff. Yes swarms have some great advantages but that's why I constantly repeat my self that you should be bringing Assault Missiles in twos or threes on solid carriers if your going to play at all. If for no other reason than THERE'S 300(+) POINTS IN TWO THIRDS THE SPACE TO PLAY THAT MANY! /rant. It amazes me how many games I'll walk past in Epic and neither team has done more than a single AM. Like really? In Epic its an auto include two of. #killalltheeverything. Even if they do bring lock out shuttle or heavier bodies.

Again just two cents. Don't lazer me bro.

I strongly disagree. The transport is awesome. Best 30pts you can spend if you didn't bring a Corvette. Support, board control, jam, survivability (Bright Hope anyone?), slap some Comms boosters on it, ram with it!

Assault missiles are also hit and miss. I had a game with both parties having Assault Missiles. They had Jendon with STS and weapons engineer, we had kagi. Two Bombers with AM, they couldn't get any shots, because lo and behold, the Target locked ship flew into range 1. Our Assault Missile on the other hand fired... and missed! Krassis with Jonus (3 rerolls) vs. 3 dice with focus of a Tie Fighter (one in a group of 8 at range 1, I should add)! Assault Missiles are great in theory, but they're neither auto-win nor auto-include.

Oh, to drop another discussion point on you all:

Do you think that Epic honestly should be a different size play field?

I'm very irritated at the 3x6 idea. It just honestly sucks. Many games don't evne use half the space due to British line tactics, and massing.

4x5 sounds like a much better idea. With the long side between the two players. Or even 5x5. or 6x6. We found that it let you do some crazy stuff. 6x6 is just kinda too large though, hard to reach that far.

4x5 much more managable.

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Thanks chilligan, I guess I fail.

Also, transport is a pretty wonderful ship. It just really has to beg its role question. If under 40 points, I suggest forward comms and ram ship. If any more than that, put it more towards the side and hope it doesn't get bopped. Reinforce and charge for later ramming.

Also Comms is the best upgrade for the Transport imo. Two Comms even better. Not limited.

Assault Missiles imo should be highly considered. Again, see post 1 for build that almost doesn't care.

Thanks chilligan, I guess I fail.

Well, yes, if you don't put any thought into setup. It's even more important than in 100pts (where it's arguably 20% of the strategy in the game). I can't claim to do it perfectly or even too well, but I try really hard every time. Between positioning asteroids to allow certain moves with the Corvette, positioning Epic ships, setting up a starting point for fighters so they don't collide with the Epic ships but still get a good approach towards the enemy, positioning in Epic is hard.

Just putting them in line does not help your argument that all-fighter lists outclass Epic ships.

Thanks chilligan, I guess I fail.

Well, yes, if you don't put any thought into setup. It's even more important than in 100pts (where it's arguably 20% of the strategy in the game). I can't claim to do it perfectly or even too well, but I try really hard every time. Between positioning asteroids to allow certain moves with the Corvette, positioning Epic ships, setting up a starting point for fighters so they don't collide with the Epic ships but still get a good approach towards the enemy, positioning in Epic is hard.

Just putting them in line does not help your argument that all-fighter lists outclass Epic ships.

I said movement. Not set up.

I think plenty about set up.

Also, I'm not making an argument. I'm trying assess whether its a high statistically probability or not.

Also again, see first post. How do you think that list is set up? Basically a 2 file close formation. or in simpler terms: "a line".

Here's another thought: Even the words I used, "British Line" aren't exactly a true line. They're blocks of formations that can move just like in every darn textbook you've ever seen. Come on.

Sorry, I find that a little offensive and a little condescending about someone's play ability that you've never met.

I think you really need to approach epic games with the right mindset, and that mindset is about having fun and enjoying the narrative. If you treat it as a competitive exercise like the 100/6 deathmatch, then it will start to fall apart.

Also, I really think epic matches should be played on a 6x4.

Thanks chilligan, I guess I fail.

Well, yes, if you don't put any thought into setup. It's even more important than in 100pts (where it's arguably 20% of the strategy in the game). I can't claim to do it perfectly or even too well, but I try really hard every time. Between positioning asteroids to allow certain moves with the Corvette, positioning Epic ships, setting up a starting point for fighters so they don't collide with the Epic ships but still get a good approach towards the enemy, positioning in Epic is hard.

Just putting them in line does not help your argument that all-fighter lists outclass Epic ships.

I said movement. Not set up.

I think plenty about set up.

Also, I'm not making an argument. I'm trying assess whether its a high statistically probability or not.

Also again, see first post. How do you think that list is set up? Basically a 2 file close formation. or in simpler terms: "a line".

Here's another thought: Even the words I used, "British Line" aren't exactly a true line. They're blocks of formations that can move just like in every darn textbook you've ever seen. Come on.

Sorry, I find that a little offensive and a little condescending about someone's play ability that you've never met.

"I put nearly no thought in comparison to a normal game about my moves in epic. Does anyone else get the same feeling? Too little distance too much British line formation?"

It was more of a "there's your problem!" moment, thought it would be funny to bring in a Yoda quote. I wasn't condescending, but you're free to see it as that. I was commenting on your own admission, I'm not commenting on your playstyle from thousands of kilometers away just because. You admitted not putting a lot of thought into moving and you're setting up in a line, my opinion is that is a mistake. First few games of X-wing, everybody puts their ships in a line. In Epic it's the same, but with 2 columns.

You can debate the British line vs. line all you want, I am not a history buff, nor a native speaker. It sounds to me like you're mashing your fleet with your opponent, charging straight forward, no thought into movement. That would only make sense in an extremely time constrained-environment, where you only get 2-3 rounds. But then, this doesn't work against a corvette, since you might not cripple anything, while the Corvette will kill some of your ships.

I think you really need to approach epic games with the right mindset, and that mindset is about having fun and enjoying the narrative. If you treat it as a competitive exercise like the 100/6 deathmatch, then it will start to fall apart.

Also, I really think epic matches should be played on a 6x4.

Why do you assume that playing to win isn't fun? Why do you think it will fall apart? I think it's currently a vastly unexplored space, plenty of depth.

I saw a few tantive list suggestions up previously but it was immediately obvious to me that some of them would not pass muster. Again not enough accuracy due to not having Han Solo or the like. An easy of pick off by concentrated Jonus swarm fire to the fighters. Cannot deal enough damage to kill 6 hull ships without taking a crap ton of damage off the return fire.

Here's another thing I noticed in epic. It seems the space doesn't become as usable. Especially in the short side set up by the rules. I put nearly no thought in comparison to a normal game about my moves in epic. Does anyone else get the same feeling? Too little distance too much British line formation?

A CR-90 can easily pick off one Tie Bomber a round as it came in. So, whenever it gets close to R5, you should see one drop a turn. This is easily done with the main guns firing and 2 Single Turbo Lasers all firing at the same target. If you send out something fast to intercept the Tie Bombers en route, then that can also greatly effect taking them out. This is where I think X-wings really shine. Yes, A-wings are faster, but unless you load them with missiles, they don't have the fire power to really deal with Bombers fast. X-wings are much faster than B-wings. They aren't that much slower than A-wings. They get 3 attack dice. Send a squad of X-wings to intercept the Tie Bombers as the CR-90 is taking out a Bomber a turn and you will see them reduced in number.

As for movement, I have found that I prefer to make strike times of like ships. In other words, I'll have 3 Y-wings with Torpedoes set for a bombing run. I'll have 3 A-wings set for Interceptors and maybe with missiles. I'll have 3 X-wings set as an all purpose squad to deal with whatever comes up. For the Imperials, I'll have 3 Tie Interceptors set up to intercept. I'll have 3 Tie Bombers with ordnance and bombs. I'll have 4 Tie Fighters to act as escorts. I found I'll send these groups out wide of each other. The Bombers want to come in at an angle on an enemy ship or it will be harder to get the TL without being run over. I try to set the game up in a more strategic sense with all the ships. If you just mob them all together and rush at each other, it gets a bit crazy and tends to take forever. It's much easier to split them up and spread them out.

Oh, to drop another discussion point on you all:

Do you think that Epic honestly should be a different size play field?

I'm very irritated at the 3x6 idea. It just honestly sucks. Many games don't evne use half the space due to British line tactics, and massing.

4x5 sounds like a much better idea. With the long side between the two players. Or even 5x5. or 6x6. We found that it let you do some crazy stuff. 6x6 is just kinda too large though, hard to reach that far.

4x5 much more managable.

I usually play on a 4x6 table space because our store has 2x4 sections painted up like space that looks pretty good. We just use that.

Didnt they FAQed it that every Epic list needs to contain at least 1 huge?

They cannot do that or scum could not take part in epic battles.

That's why they have to leave an all fighter option. Any competitive scene that requires a huge ship is a local rule brought on by the TO. Now many TOs doing this has made other local rules like making huge ships faction less which made okay sense as at that time only rebels had huge ships (and it can be argued that the status quo remains today). With the next epic expansion pack already announced it looks like every faction will have 2 huge ships. That being said however means that a scum huge ship is over a year away.

That's why I have made this conversion kit for the GR-75 to be converted into a S&V faction much in a similar way that the HWK-290 is converted into a scum ship. Of course this is only a temporary measure. It is designed to give Scum some access to the epic toys that the other factions have so when a Epic tournament comes up that requires a huge ship S&V won't be left out in the cold as they wait for FFG to give them their own. Once they have their own ship the kit will be discontinued.

And the scale. It's atrocious. All I see when they hit the board is a mismatch between them and the fighters. Seriously why not play Armada?

I do struggle to see what the epic ships really add to x-wing.

If you want small dog fights then you play x wing.

If you want large scale fleets then play Armada.

I got given a rebel transport as a gift and although I use the extra x wing and the upgrade that came with it, I have not even created a list that uses the transport.

But most of us want to play an integrated game of Starfighter combat with Capital ships. Both X-wing Epic and Armada allow us to do that but both are showing their flaws as they were based around their mechanics and focus of gameplay. X-wing was a starfighter dogfight game and Epic format was just an optional attachment however the mechanics of X-wing epic were not well refined as the designers clearly did not want Huge ships to be a dominate feature thus they were maybe a little too conservative with the power creep for huge ships and kept it closer to a massive starfighter brawl. Armada has done a better job with giving their secondary element known as squadrons their role in the game but they are underpowered compared to the big ships to the point where you might as well not take them any more than you would take proton torpedoes in X-wing. As I said before Armada feels closer to Star Trek than Star wars as a big ship battle game. Though it does a much better job at being a Star Trek game than Star trek Attack wing.

What type of game do we want to play? Well the battle of endor scene to be honest. That one epic battle where we finally get to see the Rebel Capital fleet in action as fighters scream in between these giants. Now lore wise the rebels avoided large scale engagements because they couldn't afford losses that the Imperial forces could easily replace, but still we want a game where both starfighters and capital ships can play a role in a competitive match and not have the balance tip to all starfighters or all capital ships.

Well then play epic with a capital ship. I just don't want to. I want to bring as many fighters as possible. I also don't like having to buy huge ships for small and large ship fixes. Just personal preference. I'm not going to make a campaign to have it changed because I know some people do like it that way, but I will vote with my money

Why do you assume that playing to win isn't fun? Why do you think it will fall apart? I think it's currently a vastly unexplored space, plenty of depth.

Oh, playing to win can definitely be fun! But IMO epic play is not as finely balanced as tournament play and attempting to approach it in the same way you would approach a 100/6 game will result in a broken game. Epic play seems, IMO, to be best played with a GM ran scenario, pre-set lists, and a mindset geared more to the narrative aspect of the game rather than a purely mechanical competition.

To those who are finding good use in their transports, I respect it. To the Kagi users, that can be played around, it is not an end of assault missile use. A very good counter, but not the final word. I have seen lists that make great action economy and maneuvering defeat his usability. It can be done but it is a challenge.

A CR-90 can easily pick off one Tie Bomber a round as it came in. So, whenever it gets close to R5, you should see one drop a turn. This is easily done with the main guns firing and 2 Single Turbo Lasers all firing at the same target. If you send out something fast to intercept the Tie Bombers en route, then that can also greatly effect taking them out. This is where I think X-wings really shine. Yes, A-wings are faster, but unless you load them with missiles, they don't have the fire power to really deal with Bombers fast. X-wings are much faster than B-wings. They aren't that much slower than A-wings. They get 3 attack dice. Send a squad of X-wings to intercept the Tie Bombers as the CR-90 is taking out a Bomber a turn and you will see them reduced in number.

As for movement, I have found that I prefer to make strike times of like ships. In other words, I'll have 3 Y-wings with Torpedoes set for a bombing run. I'll have 3 A-wings set for Interceptors and maybe with missiles. I'll have 3 X-wings set as an all purpose squad to deal with whatever comes up. For the Imperials, I'll have 3 Tie Interceptors set up to intercept. I'll have 3 Tie Bombers with ordnance and bombs. I'll have 4 Tie Fighters to act as escorts. I found I'll send these groups out wide of each other. The Bombers want to come in at an angle on an enemy ship or it will be harder to get the TL without being run over. I try to set the game up in a more strategic sense with all the ships. If you just mob them all together and rush at each other, it gets a bit crazy and tends to take forever. It's much easier to split them up and spread them out.

That is fantastic to hear. I love the fact your setting up smaller squad/wings of same types of ships. I've always thought/wanted ships to be, to some degree, situational and fill their proper role. Not everything has to be measured solely against an attack fighter.

Okay maybe not the X-Wing but it's great is has a great niche to fill and that it shines in its role. Woo Hoo!!! Still, it will be interesting to see what 'love' FFG has in store for it.

There's a lot to love about Star Wars: X-Wing.

Yeah, it's fun to break things up into squads and to play on a big table. Split your squads up and send them on their mission. The enemy has their own squads and has to figure out what to do and what you are going to do. What goes against the Y-wings to stop the Bombers? What goes against the X-wings? What's going to protect the Tie Bombers? Squads going wide and the whole board being used. It's pretty neat that way.

In some ways, there is the strategic element to the game. What is the biggest thread to me? Which of my squads can stop it? Which squads vs. which of theirs?

EDIT: I can also say that B-wings aren't that good in these types of games. Well, they have to be very specialised. They are pretty slow, so they can get picked off easy, but they are tanks. If they can get to a spot in one piece, they are alright. Of they act as a defender, then that's OK.

Also can vouch, X-wings are great escorts for the Cr90.

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And yes, its usually a double line to get the max out of the Range1 of Jonus. Duh. Yes, I definitely think you're being condescending.

Even mathematically, there's 2/3 as much room for the same number of ships. And concentration of forces makes that area even smaller. Which mean really that arc dodging and the like isn't nearly as powerful. So, no, I stand by what I said. There isn't nearly as much thought put into my moves in an Epic game. Also, after 4 rounds of moving a crap ton of ships, you need to move them at a faster clip.

Also can vouch, X-wings are great escorts for the Cr90.

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And yes, its usually a double line to get the max out of the Range1 of Jonus. Duh. Yes, I definitely think you're being condescending.

Even mathematically, there's 2/3 as much room for the same number of ships. And concentration of forces makes that area even smaller. Which mean really that arc dodging and the like isn't nearly as powerful. So, no, I stand by what I said. There isn't nearly as much thought put into my moves in an Epic game. Also, after 4 rounds of moving a crap ton of ships, you need to move them at a faster clip.

Movement is very important in epic games. Getting blocked can be disastrous as you're often flying mini-squads, which will then bump into each other. Losing that many actions on ships is terrible. Not to mention if you get your ships stuck in some kind of blocking party, it's easy for a huge ship to come by and ruin your day. Not to mention you need to adjust your distance between your ships when an assault missile is close by.

And as far as arc-dodgers go, Interceptors in epic are actually run as Interceptors (as in the aircraft type). You're not there to dance around everyone, as that's not going to happen. You're charging flanks and intercepting other craft. 18 point Alphas are pretty amazing in Epic games.

I think a lot of the thoughts around Epic are due to most everybody being very new to it. Remember back in the Wave 0/1 days of X-Wing, everybody just lined up their ships and jousted. That's what's happening in Epic right now. I think once people play it more they'll discover just how dynamic and interesting Epic battles are.

There are lists that want to joust. See first post. What do you think that list is doing?

Also with missiles you can likely even blow up a huge ship with reinforce. Tha doesn't even count splitting into a more mobile group and hitting the other unprotected half.

I could see 4' x 6' for Epic play. Warmachine uses 4' x 4' for the ubiqitous 50-point games, but 4' x 6' for 150-point games due to the masses of extra models that need to be squeezed in. Especially with the size and speed of Huge-based ships, 4' x 6' seems perfectly reasonable.