I would like to invite some discussion:

Is it a consensus around here that spamming 300 points of moderately tanky fighters in epic is nearly the best build you can take?

(I think and have heard it is.)

Is there a Huge ship list that would take against the below list??

Do you think Epic should be changed to 250 points? This would alleviate the alpha strike problem. Also, makes it so that Epic ships achieve a balance between getting nearly one shot and being wayy too hard to kill.

This also makes Epic games slightly shorter. As the first few moves are less long and the setup/cleanup is slightly shorter.

I've tried 200 points and that makes a Corvette very difficult to take down.

Should Epic require at least 1 Epic ship?

Could we even get Epic Escalation?? Wouldn't that be fun??

--

For reference, here is a version of that tanky fighters list:

Defenders and bombers set up nearly R1 in a bubble around Jonus. Doesn't really care about 3 assault missiles to the face. Cuz Kagi is set up a little ways away to draw TLs.

Palpatine and Jendon in the back are just for giggles.

Also does anyone know: Can you take a limited upgrade on two different halves of a ship?

I haven't had a chance to text it, but ever since the corvette came out my opinion has been that the best epic list would be to swarm a bunch of cheap, agile ships, Fighters and interceptors, to effectively neutralize any turbolasers the corvette may have brought. Then just do t get run over by the huge ship and annihilate the enemy fighters with a 2-1 advantage. Once all the enemy fighters are dead, whatever is left can get into the corvettes blind spot and burn it down.

I haven't had a chance to text it, but ever since the corvette came out my opinion has been that the best epic list would be to swarm a bunch of cheap, agile ships, Fighters and interceptors, to effectively neutralize any turbolasers the corvette may have brought. Then just do t get run over by the huge ship and annihilate the enemy fighters with a 2-1 advantage. Once all the enemy fighters are dead, whatever is left can get into the corvettes blind spot and burn it down.

See this exactly.

Actually, it really doesn't have to be Bombers. Any 300 points of fighters seems to be better than taking Huge ships.

The problem is that the epic ships are too expensive compared how many fighters that can be included for the same cost.

I think that the obvious immediate solution is to require the inclusion of at least 1 epic ship on each side.

Epic Ships should be calculated separately from the rest of the list for epic play.

I don't really think the huge ships will last much, even with a rule that forced both sides to have the same amount of epic points fielded +/-1.

Turbolasers aren't effective against agile fighters. They were never meant to. They are supposed to destroy capital ships. A corvette and a raider exchanging turbolaser fire at range 5 will end with one or both of them pretty much limping by the mid game, and destroyed by the endgame.

In the only epic game I have played, I faced a corvette and a transport with Soontir Fel, two TIE Fighters and two Omicron Group Pilot shuttles with heavy laser cannon (115 points); while the rest of my fleet engaged with the rebel fighters and turrets.

By the 5th round, the corvette had been destroyed along with the transport, and I had lost 1 T/F, 1 shuttle and Soontir Fel.

It was our first epic game, but that didn't feel right (specially for the corvette owner, he was borrowing my transport), because his corvette and transport were close to 175 points and he felt useless.

The main problem with huge ships in epic can almost be attributed to the same problem torpedo and missile upgrades have in competitive play, and that is dice modification ability.

Now the dice we all know that each dice has 2 focus results which are blank unless you have a focus token which you could spend to turn those into hits or evades. Huge ships cannot use focus tokens, all focus, evade and stress tokens do not apply as the maneuver mechanics is energy management and not stress management, and the actions are based on a crew rather than an individual pilot. Thus imagine playing a game where you are no longer allowed to play focus tokens and now you know what type of game. Worse yet cards like opportunist work against huge ships always.

Now there is some realization into that. The Imperial carrier will have a crew card that allows you to turn a focus result into an evade or hit and Han Solo <crew> can also use Target locks which is an action that the CR-90 has and turn focus results into hits. Now is it enough, maybe not.

I see Onyx Squadron Pilot.

List dismissed.

Even if Onyx weren't a bad card, I'd still dismiss it for the crime against card art.

Remember though that huge ships aren't played much and thus they lack meta builds: it could be that players are simply much better with standard ships than with huges.

Remember though that huge ships aren't played much and thus they lack meta builds: it could be that players are simply much better with standard ships than with huges.

Probably.

My rival moved the corvette and transport parallel to his side of the mat, with the transport serving as shield. That gave me free choice to attack the non-reinforced section every single round, so the reinforce action was basically wasted.

He definitely didn't use Han Solo as a crew in the corvette, and focused fire his turbolasers on Soontir Fel at range 3 with Stealth Device and autothrusters, instead of on the shuttles. That is 9 defence dice with AT, focus and evade from Soontir. But the more he missed, the more he wanted to get Fel killed, so basically my shuttles couldn't believe their luck.

Have you guys played with:

1) the new rule concerning ranges. No matter what, a TIE fighter will defend with 4 dice (+1 obstructed) against a Corvette.

2) The specific combos I keep ranting on every time someone talks about Epic: Han Solo, Weapons Engineer, Luke Skywalker (+w Jan Ors and Roark).

Things to consider:

1) A corvette with Han Solo with a TL on a TIE Fighter has a 47% chance of one-shotting it at 6 dice, as opposed to 18% when having 5 dice and a naked TL.

2) You have a couple of turns before the opponent can engage you, where you can "thin" their numbers. You may kill 1 defender, 2 TIE Fighters or two TIE Bombers. with 6dice han solo, you have 3 average damage on Bombers (with just one of your attacks).

3) Use board control with the Corvette. There are some spots where the enemy won't venture.

4) Against Epic ships, HLC aren't as bad as manglers. Crits *really* hurt.

5) The Corvette will shoot 6 dice then 4 dice. If it misses 4 dice shot (I can *make* it miss by not using TL against a high-agility ship), I can shoot again with 4 dice against the same ship, but with no double-agility, just +1 for range OR I can shoot 5 dice again. This costs me a total of 4 energy per turn, which I can sustain in the initial approach.

6) When enemy ships get close enough I can start missing on purpose with Quad lasers, which is much less expensive, since they're already charged up

7) Focus fire. A player with an Epic ship and 4-5 small ships can concentrate fire much easier than a player with 10 ships, assuming good asteroid positions and good deployment on both sides.

8) Any fighter that gets taken out by the CR90 gets taken out at PS12, those which are only "softened up" can be mopped up by escort.

9) Shooting with fighters in a Corvette makes you go *towards* the Corvette, which means the Corvette could overlap your ships. If it rams you with the Fore section crippled, it will *not* take anymore damage! (happened to me at least once).

10) It's much more difficult for an opponent to trace a good approach when you are constantly firing at him. What I mean is you are forcing your opponent to cover the distance quickly.

I feel like that there are plenty of nuances to Epic play. I have won decisively with fighter-only builds, but I see the appeal of using a Corvette. It is much harder to position properly though. But when it's properly positioned and has the right upgrades, it can tear apart the opposition.

We found huge ships so bad compared to fighters we just changed the way we build lists.

Now our epic games are "x points of fighters + x points of huge" per side.

Sorted.

The problem is that the epic ships are too expensive compared how many fighters that can be included for the same cost.

I think that the obvious immediate solution is to require the inclusion of at least 1 epic ship on each side.

And I'd be out. I still don't get the big deal about epic. I already don't care much for normal turret ships, but Epic ships are worse, just big bricks that float across the board firing in almost any directions. The only thing they seem good for, to me, are the upgrade cards and a desk ornament, but they're even too large for that.

And the scale. It's atrocious. All I see when they hit the board is a mismatch between them and the fighters. Seriously why not play Armada?

For the most part I've seen about 3 or 4 posts here where people haven't got the experience to even know if they can play huge ships competitively against a fighter list.

Has anyone actually played these games and can share some experience instead of pushing a point and then using theory to try and back it up?

Also seeing a lot of people agree from experience that they haven't been able to make their huge ships work.

About the Han solo and other combos, yes I've played them extensively and know them very well.

Sadly, I've found them very lacking in the end. Loss of even more damage potential.

Have you guys played with:

1) the new rule concerning ranges. No matter what, a TIE fighter will defend with 4 dice (+1 obstructed) against a Corvette.

2) The specific combos I keep ranting on every time someone talks about Epic: Han Solo, Weapons Engineer, Luke Skywalker (+w Jan Ors and Roark).

Things to consider:

1) A corvette with Han Solo with a TL on a TIE Fighter has a 47% chance of one-shotting it at 6 dice, as opposed to 18% when having 5 dice and a naked TL.

2) You have a couple of turns before the opponent can engage you, where you can "thin" their numbers. You may kill 1 defender, 2 TIE Fighters or two TIE Bombers. with 6dice han solo, you have 3 average damage on Bombers (with just one of your attacks).

3) Use board control with the Corvette. There are some spots where the enemy won't venture.

4) Against Epic ships, HLC aren't as bad as manglers. Crits *really* hurt.

5) The Corvette will shoot 6 dice then 4 dice. If it misses 4 dice shot (I can *make* it miss by not using TL against a high-agility ship), I can shoot again with 4 dice against the same ship, but with no double-agility, just +1 for range OR I can shoot 5 dice again. This costs me a total of 4 energy per turn, which I can sustain in the initial approach.

6) When enemy ships get close enough I can start missing on purpose with Quad lasers, which is much less expensive, since they're already charged up

7) Focus fire. A player with an Epic ship and 4-5 small ships can concentrate fire much easier than a player with 10 ships, assuming good asteroid positions and good deployment on both sides.

8) Any fighter that gets taken out by the CR90 gets taken out at PS12, those which are only "softened up" can be mopped up by escort.

9) Shooting with fighters in a Corvette makes you go *towards* the Corvette, which means the Corvette could overlap your ships. If it rams you with the Fore section crippled, it will *not* take anymore damage! (happened to me at least once).

10) It's much more difficult for an opponent to trace a good approach when you are constantly firing at him. What I mean is you are forcing your opponent to cover the distance quickly.

I feel like that there are plenty of nuances to Epic play. I have won decisively with fighter-only builds, but I see the appeal of using a Corvette. It is much harder to position properly though. But when it's properly positioned and has the right upgrades, it can tear apart the opposition.

If you don't mind revealing some of your secrets, what would be a list with a Huge you'd use against the list I outlined above?

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As for the Onyx statement: The PS3 and PS4 gamma and onyxs basically ensure you can bop any opposing missile shots before they fire. Also, HLC and 4dice Assault missiles will seriously hurt even a reinforced section. Although, obviously with good positioning, you could even get juicier fighter or unprotected section shots.

For the most part I've seen about 3 or 4 posts here where people haven't got the experience to even know if they can play huge ships competitively against a fighter list.

Has anyone actually played these games and can share some experience instead of pushing a point and then using theory to try and back it up?

Also seeing a lot of people agree from experience that they haven't been able to make their huge ships work.

About the Han solo and other combos, yes I've played them extensively and know them very well.

Sadly, I've found them very lacking in the end. Loss of even more damage potential.

Yeah I played a few games, even got some pics to show. and your right many people do not know how to play huge ships and you see mistakes like putting frequency jammer on a CR-90 which is the equivalent of putting stygum particle accelerator on a Falcon. I also see some crazy stuff like a single turbo laser actually kill soontir at range 5.Granted it only needed one more hit at as it was at 1 health, but still the amount of points you put into those ships are not what you get out.

Now the jousting values of these ships are hard as you have range 4 and 5 which are not in standard as well as the recovery action which is only a little bit in standard. however I noticed that Epic has way more fighters than standard even with a souped up CR-90 on each side. When ever you play over 100 points with a game like 150 points ships tend to get focused down a whole lot faster. The big scary huge ships tend to steal all of the focus with no focus tokens for their own pun not intended but was included as a pun anyway.

As their ability to return fire, I mention before unless you upgrade for it and you will have to upgrade huge ships have no use of focus results an ability that every single ship in standard has. Not to mention that huge ships cannot use EPTs which have strong effects on standard meta, nor can the use sensors or even modifications which has proven to be strong in standard. Now to be fare some of those standard upgrades on a huge ship would be broken and they have their own upgrade slots but those are rather limited in their selection Many of those slot sets have no more than 3 upgrade cards. The only standard upgrade they can take is the crew slot, and many crew cards on huge ships (Kyle Katan is a perfect example) don't work with huge ships mechanics. As for damage dealt and points destroyed by huge ships it tends to be a fluke like rolling 5 hits at range 5 or actually landing on Ocuin and not some big strategic plan, not in the sense Armada has with their capital ships.

However with the Raider upcoming and the Imperial assault carrier which has one of the best Huge ship crew upgrade ever I think Epic will have some good things coming to it. Will they fix the huge ships problem, I don't know but it will help.

Didnt they FAQed it that every Epic list needs to contain at least 1 huge?

did they?

They cannot do that or scum could not take part in epic battles.

CR90 Corvette (Aft) (40)
Luke Skywalker (7)
Quad Laser Cannons (6)
Engineering Team (4)

CR90 Corvette (Fore) (50)
Han Solo (2)
Single Turbolasers (8)
Quad Laser Cannons (6)
Sensor Team (4)
Weapons Engineer (3)
Tantive IV (4)

Jan Ors (25)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Roark Garnet (19)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Dagger Squadron Pilot (24)
Tactician (2)
B-Wing/E2 (1)

Dagger Squadron Pilot (24)
Tactician (2)
B-Wing/E2 (1)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Total: 300

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The crew/team arrangement is subject to changes, I can't remember which is the one I favoured.

My experience is with playing a lot of fighters against Corvettes, and Corvette vs. Corvette. I never had a Corvette vs. fighter game, with me having the CR90. That's the disclaimer. That being said, I distinctly remember a case where a CR90 with good positioning and Weapons Engineer would tear my ships apart. Being a tournament setting, I had no position to attack it properly and finish it off in time, so I settled on a smaller victory by taking out the escorts. The CR90 was an MVP in that game, although it was never near my fleet. But then again, it is half a list.

The idea that I outlined above is just equipping the CR90 with what I need to make it work, put the HWKs near it, fly a pinwheel of Bs that can engage the opposing force and finish off 1-2HP ships or stress them. I could also put Ion Cannon on those Bs, Ion + Epic ships = roadkill.

For the most part I've seen about 3 or 4 posts here where people haven't got the experience to even know if they can play huge ships competitively against a fighter list.

Has anyone actually played these games and can share some experience instead of pushing a point and then using theory to try and back it up?

Also seeing a lot of people agree from experience that they haven't been able to make their huge ships work.

About the Han solo and other combos, yes I've played them extensively and know them very well.

Sadly, I've found them very lacking in the end. Loss of even more damage potential.

I have participated in two Epic tournaments, 300pts with 150pts per teammate. When we swarmed agile ships, we almost got last. When we planted Bs and a GR75, we got second. I played against CR90s and won, but only because they didn't equip it properly. I have otherwise played 10+ more games of Epic at 300pts and working my way through the second run of the campaingn. Take from my experience what you will.

Here's a bat-rep from Muon that he did in April where he was running a CR-90. It's quite interesting: http://teamcovenant.com/mu0n/2015/04/04/epic-300vs300-battle-report-with-errata-on-cr90/

I've played a bunch of epic games, but I should state that they were different points levels. Anything from 200-350. Also, I tried to stick with almost all generic fighters and that the lists for both sides were written by the same person most of the time. So, it's not quite been super competitive version of Epic. Then again, it's been a lot of fun!

The times that I see Epic end quickly with the epic ships not having much of a chance has been when one side loads up with as much high attack value ships as possible. I'm talking Empire taking nothing but Phantoms, Interceptors, or Lambdas with HLCs. If you can get within range of an epic ship for a few turns, you can burn it down rather fast. The people who have played this way tend not to play Epic for long and get bored with it. So, I haven't seen these people try various tricks to see if it works.

I have had a lot of Tie Fighters fly against the Corvette. It usually goes very well for the Corvette. It's tough to approach the CR-90 and not get run over since it goes after all your ships. You don't know where it's going to go. The Reinforce action makes the Tie Fighter shots pretty ineffective, as well. It's tough to get within R1 and not be wanting to bug out and get out of there. If you can get behind the Corvette, you have a much better chance of taking it out.

I have found things with ordnance that are approaching Epic ships have a bit of a hard time. You don't want to go after it head on as it moves after you. By the time you get within TL range, it then moves and is quite possibly R1 and you can't fire your ordnance. You are then thinking about how to not get run over by the ship the next turn. The only approach I can see is come at it from the side, but that takes a bit of time and opens you up for being focused out. Having said that....the XX-23 S-Thread Tracer will change all that. If you can get one ship within range to fire it, you could then give all the other ships nearby that TL. You could then have a lot of ships that have Focus and then a free TL. The person with the Tracer will still need to be in TL range, though. Maybe some combo with the Col. Jendon?

The combo with the HWK-290 and Jan Ors is brutal with a CR-90. Giving an extra attack die for all shots? That's pretty brutal. That means you can bump your main weapon attack die to 6 red dice! Knowing that your opponent will only get 1 extra die for range is a big deal. Even an Interceptor will not like that attention. Put Gunner on the ship and even if your Turbolaser attacks miss, you get to fire the main gun again! Weapons Engineers are also brutal as they will put crits out on enemy ships. This works for all attacks, including Turbolasers.

Single TruboLasers don't give any range modifier and will double the green dice on a defender. You get 4 attack dice and one eyeball turns into a hit. If you have Jan Ors, you bump it to 5 attack dice. I've fired at X-wings with this weapon and it's been brutal. 4 Evade dice aren't much and you can roll all blanks. Even firing at a Tie Fighter can see some hits in there. You roll 5 attack dice where one eyeball is a hit and one hit becomes a crit (Weapons Eng). They get to roll 6 evade dice. I've seen that go in favor of the red dice numerous times. Even if you miss....you get to fire the Main Gun again!

The front of the CR-90 does get 2 hardpoints. You could load up with 2 Single Turbo Lasers, Luke, and Weapons Eng. and have Jan Ors nearby. That would be some nasty firing from the CR-90.

I think if you are going to go with an epic ship vs. just fighters, then you should go with something fast for your defense. Interceptors will allow you to get to the enemy quickly and blast at them. If you are playing Rebels, just go with some A-wings and Assault Missiles...especially if the enemy is bunched up. Firing a couple of those at enemy formations will put some hurt on the enemy.

K-wings can also change the game now. They can SLAM forward and drop template bombs all over the board. This could make it harder for those enemy ships to get within range. Twin Laser Turret is also a way for some of these ships to ping at the enemy as they approach from a distance. A stressbot Y-wing can hound incoming fighters and give them double stress. That will make it harder for them to take down the CR-90 and also easier for them to be taken down in turn.

Ordnance is also great to alpha strike the alpha strikers. Horton Salm can fire Proton Torpedoes at enemy ships with a good chance of getting a lot of hits in. Take out their enemy before they get within range.

CR90 Corvette (Aft) (40)

Luke Skywalker (7)

Quad Laser Cannons (6)

Engineering Team (4)

CR90 Corvette (Fore) (50)

Han Solo (2)

Single Turbolasers (8)

Quad Laser Cannons (6)

Sensor Team (4)

Weapons Engineer (3)

Tantive IV (4)

I'm not a big fan of Luke (or Gunner) on the CR-90, because of the "You cannot perform another attack this round," language. With as many potential attacks as you have, it means you have to choose between re-rolling and not taking any other shots, or saving him for your very last shot. Just not very efficient. (I wish they would errata these cards to read "You cannot perform another attack with this weapon this round.")

I do think it takes a lot of practice to fly these ships well. They can control a lot of area, mostly because they threaten to obliterate a lot of small craft if they get to close. I would recommend flying through the campaigns in the rule books to get a really good sense of their strengths and weaknesses before playing Epic.

..

The combo with the HWK-290 and Jan Ors is brutal with a CR-90. Giving an extra attack die for all shots? That's pretty brutal. That means you can bump your main weapon attack die to 6 red dice! Knowing that your opponent will only get 1 extra die for range is a big deal. Even an Interceptor will not like that attention. Put Gunner on the ship and even if your Turbolaser attacks miss, you get to fire the main gun again! Weapons Engineers are also brutal as they will put crits out on enemy ships. This works for all attacks, including Turbolasers.

Single TruboLasers don't give any range modifier and will double the green dice on a defender. You get 4 attack dice and one eyeball turns into a hit. If you have Jan Ors, you bump it to 5 attack dice. I've fired at X-wings with this weapon and it's been brutal. 4 Evade dice aren't much and you can roll all blanks. Even firing at a Tie Fighter can see some hits in there. You roll 5 attack dice where one eyeball is a hit and one hit becomes a crit (Weapons Eng). They get to roll 6 evade dice. I've seen that go in favor of the red dice numerous times. Even if you miss....you get to fire the Main Gun again!

...

Some quick notes:

* Jan Ors only works for one of the attacks. With one Turbolaser equipped, you would get to shoot 6,4,5 dice (spending 4 energy total, 2 for Turbolaser, 2 for CR90 ability twice), last one being Gunner/Luke primary

* Mercenary copilot is the one you're thinking of, not Weapons Engineer, and it works only at range 3, not beyond range 3.

* I prefer Luke over Gunner since he changes a focus into a hit, perhaps on the 3rd shot you're out of Target Locks

I agree with the rest.