I agree with Vorpal Sword. There's also a whole area to attack where the ship will get only it's secondary turret (the flanks) even when the Phantom is docked. For a large ship that is clearly banking on getting something out of the 4-dice primary weapon, that's a big weakness.

edit: a large ship that also caps out at PS7.

I think it will all depend on pilot abilities, and what the best match for crew will be. In some ways, it doesn't matter what the cost and stats are (to a degree) because those synergies will make or break the ship. Just look at Corran. Everyone knows he is a beast, but it isn't because of any one thing. E Wings are a bit meh, as we all know, and R2D2 has been around since day 1, but something happened with that ship that was just amazing *read, his pilot ability*.

We have no idea what these pilots do, other than Hera changing maneuvers, which could be really powerful, but we don't know yet. I think that this game is in a beautiful place right now, and I can't wait to see how the next few months shake out. When we know a little bit more about the Ghost I think people will be really excited about it. I am just proud that I play a game that is designed by someone that loves it as much as I do, if not more.

@ Vorpal. Completely underwhelming is also a possibility, but I think all these nuance stacked together certainly have the potential to produce some combinations of mechanics where are hitherto untested. I'm just a bit worried about the admitted lack of time to test and the previously outcome of a similar situation.

Hopefully it'll all stack perfectly and everyone will be happier

But if I equip a Y-Wing with BTL-A4 Title I can do that now can't I?

Could do the same thing with Corran as well.

Not every turn though...

The thing is that while you're right that the Ghost is doing a lot, nothing it's doing is actually new. 4 Attack has been done before, with lots of secondary weapons and with the Phantom. So we know a lot about how it works. Attacking twice happens with Cluster Missiles, with the Twin Laser Turret, with Gunner, with the BTL-A4 title, and with the Corvette, so we know a lot about how that works. And while deploying fighters is new to players, it shouldn't be new to FFG and their playtesters if the Nashtah Pup, Gozanti, and Ghost all turn out to use the same mechanic.

The Phantom didn't really do anything new, either. Advanced Sensors already allowed pre-move boosts or barrel rolls. A variety of upgrades allowed extra defense dice. And... that's about it. The differences with the Phantom were matters of degree - 2 speed templates instead of 1, and persistent +2 agility... Kind of like the Phantom is a difference of degree from the Pup, and the free turret attack can be used outside the forward arc, and all of it is happening on a super-tough ship with multiple crew.

Broken rarely comes from individual elements, and there's rarely any truly new mechanics. Broken comes from incremental upgrades and synergy. We don't know enough about it yet to say it will or won't be, but it's doing exactly what the Phantom did.

Just saw this now. I'm happy to hear the Scyk will get some attention. Also the X-wing will get some love.

My big concern with the Ghost is that it may not be good enough. I thought 4 Attack was some kind of joke when I first saw it, but think about it--the VCX-100 without the Phantom attached is a really expensive ship that, unlike most Large ships, just has a front arc. It's no more durable than a Firespray, and it lacks the rear arc (which, speaking for myself only, gets used more than half the time). It has to make up for that somehow: the Lambda got a huge cost cut, the IG-2000 got a brilliant dial, and (judging by the publicly available information) the Ghost got a high Attack value.

Jousting efficiency @ PS7 without an EPT or any named pilot ability:

95.8% for 4/0/10/6 @ 40 points (30.7 points in raw dice @PS1)

Now add FCS in the System Upgrade slot and assume 50% chance free TL:

102.6% for 4/0/10/6 + FCS @ 42 points (34.5 points in raw dice @PS1)

And that's without considering any other upgrades or crew. It looks unlikely to be a total flop unless the dial is really bad. The biggest limitation will probably be the forced bid to PS7. I'll reserve judgement until I see the dial.

Yup, the shuttle can be used on its own and without the titles and a docked shuttle, the ghost only have a front arc.

Yes. And you can also plonk a shuttle into a list without the Phantom at all. That's interesting.

I'm struck by how similar the design issues faced by FFG seem to IC and embedded systems design (and likely higher-level programming as well, though I can't speak to that). With the tension between time-to-market pressures and the need for stress-testing, it's just never possible to make such a complex system fool proof. In the field, the end user always finds way to induce a state that never would have been dreamt of by the design engineers, despite their best efforts and sincere desire to debug a system before it's released.

In gaming, we have here a less pessimistic case of Murphy's Law: whatever can be done to "break" the meta, will be done to "break" it. But isn't that because, ultimately, gamers tend to be really freaking smart? And on top of that, being the first to break the meta in a new way usually means tournament wins and accolades from other serious players! It's true that it's unfortunate how the game can stagnate, but it's interesting how in the design world what I'm calling stagnation is often seen as a resounding success - someone really did build a better mouse trap and there's just no reason to not jump on that bandwagon! And ride it until the wheels come off!

I, for one, am quite impressed with FFG, both in terms of how complete a game they've produced in a short time, but also their attentiveness to stagnation. I think the truth is we want to be able to break the meta from time to time, otherwise we're left with rock-paper-scissors. But we also need them to come in and hit the reset button once in awhile. It seems to me they get that, and deserve a lot of credit. The only other game I've ever been a part of competitively that handled this better was Magic, and it's been around MUCH longer and has MANY more components to work with. And it still gets completely broken from time to time, plus, with X-Wing you can always just go buy exactly the ships you need!

Kudos to FFG, and also to all you innovators out there.

Biophysical, on 06 Aug 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I agree with Vorpal Sword. There's also a whole area to attack where the ship will get only it's secondary turret (the flanks) even when the Phantom is docked. For a large ship that is clearly banking on getting something out of the 4-dice primary weapon, that's a big weakness.

edit: a large ship that also caps out at PS7.

It has FCS hello advanced sensors. It has barrel roll. It has a GREEN 4 forward.... so 1,2,3 straight are also green.

Its going to be an awesome ship. I am not sure it will be tournament competitive but its going to be CRAZY fun to play casual.

Biophysical, on 06 Aug 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I agree with Vorpal Sword. There's also a whole area to attack where the ship will get only it's secondary turret (the flanks) even when the Phantom is docked. For a large ship that is clearly banking on getting something out of the 4-dice primary weapon, that's a big weakness.

edit: a large ship that also caps out at PS7.

It has FCS hello advanced sensors. It has barrel roll. It has a GREEN 4 forward.... so 1,2,3 straight are also green.

Its going to be an awesome ship. I am not sure it will be tournament competitive but its going to be CRAZY fun to play casual.

Having a four forward doesn't mean that that the 1-3 are green by default. It could have a fast dial and struggle to go at lower speeds. Or, the thing can go fast in a straight line and turn like a brick stuck in a bucket of honey.

Also, the Ghost doesn't have barrel roll, the Phantom does.

Having a four forward doesn't mean that that the 1-3 are green by default.

It doesn't, but it's a safe assumption. No ship so far has a more difficult straight at lower speeds then at higher speeds. I just checked and for every ship it goes green, white, red without a single case of white, green white/red.

Again that doesn't mean they can't do that, just that they have yet to do so, so if I were to make an assumption I'd go with 1-3 are green if 4 is.

Damnit, now I NEED to know what 4-LOM does...

Same here. As if I could be any less excited for wave 8!

And on a side note, does anyone else besides Alex call him 4 "L-O-M"? I never spell it out how he does. I know it stands for "love of money" but I've only ever heard it pronounced 4-LOM as in rhymes with bomb.

It never occurred to me to prounounce it "4-LOM." We've always said "4-L-O-M" like Alex did.

If you think about it, all the other droids get called by their full designation... C-3-P-O, R-2-D-2, etc.

Jacob

Well, we can assume that a shuttle will cost minimum 12 points based upon previous statements by the designers.

I just tried a sample build with Hera and it sure seems like a kitted ghost is going to run 70+ points with a shuttle docked.

Hera had FCS, TLT, EU and 5 points worth of crew. (57 points)

70 points is a lot to pay for 16 hp and 2 four dice attacks.

2 Blues with HLC and FCS is also 16 hp and 2 four dice attacks at 62 points, so this isn't seeming like it will be crazy out of whack. No rear arcs, but they do have 2 arcs to cover more ground, plus more shields, 1 agility, and built in barrel roll.

And the good news is, no C-3PO, though I imagine R2-D2 will be popular.

Really what I'm wondering is when, if ever, it will be worth it to deploy the shuttle. It will be tough for it to compete with the second attack.

Having a four forward doesn't mean that that the 1-3 are green by default.

It doesn't, but it's a safe assumption. No ship so far has a more difficult straight at lower speeds then at higher speeds. I just checked and for every ship it goes green, white, red without a single case of white, green white/red.Again that doesn't mean they can't do that, just that they have yet to do so, so if I were to make an assumption I'd go with 1-3 are green if 4 is.

A-wing and interceptors has white 3 and 1 turns but green 2s. E-wing,z-95 , bombers and so on has green 2 banks while white 3 and 1 banks. Bombers have white 3 turns but red 2 turns. The decimators 1 and 4 straight are only white.

Damnit, now I NEED to know what 4-LOM does...

Same here. As if I could be any less excited for wave 8!

And on a side note, does anyone else besides Alex call him 4 "L-O-M"? I never spell it out how he does. I know it stands for "love of money" but I've only ever heard it pronounced 4-LOM as in rhymes with bomb.

It never occurred to me to prounounce it "4-LOM." We've always said "4-L-O-M" like Alex did.

If you think about it, all the other droids get called by their full designation... C-3-P-O, R-2-D-2, etc.

Jacob

That's cause Threepio sounds better than Cepo. Good luck pronoucing Artoo's name any other way...

"Fourlom" might be officially 4-L.O.M., but which are you going to say in the heat of battle?

The decimators 1 and 4 straight are only white.

My bad, you're right. The VY-49 is White, Green, Green, White, for it's straight maneuvers. So it has been done before. I'd still assume 1-3 greens on the Ghost though just because that's what's most common.

Having a four forward doesn't mean that that the 1-3 are green by default.

It doesn't, but it's a safe assumption. No ship so far has a more difficult straight at lower speeds then at higher speeds. I just checked and for every ship it goes green, white, red without a single case of white, green white/red.Again that doesn't mean they can't do that, just that they have yet to do so, so if I were to make an assumption I'd go with 1-3 are green if 4 is.

Look nice and close at the Decimator dial and get back to me :-)

I'm definitely thinking this ship could have more difficult slow maneuvers.

No offense to the guys at FFG, but pretty much everyone recognized the Scyk as a dud (or at least significantly overpriced) the second it was fully spoiled. Base ship too expensive and the title is too expensive. It needs at least a 2 point deduction across the board.

This, so much this.

The cool wee thing is just too many points for what it brings to the table

If it were 14 with the title would it see more play?

I was really gutted when I found out it was 14 stock as it was the wave VI ship that I was waiting for the most

I for one am also pretty stoked about being able to run battles between a Ghost and a Gozanti loaded with ties. So much fluffy theme...

Jacob

No offense to the guys at FFG, but pretty much everyone recognized the Scyk as a dud (or at least significantly overpriced) the second it was fully spoiled. Base ship too expensive and the title is too expensive. It needs at least a 2 point deduction across the board.

This, so much this.

The cool wee thing is just too many points for what it brings to the table

If it were 14 with the title would it see more play?

I was really gutted when I found out it was 14 stock as it was the wave VI ship that I was waiting for the most

At 14 points... it should have included the cannon upgrade slot. A base of 12 is more fitting for the Scyk (without a cannon). It compares closely to a TIE Fighter and one might argue its dial is worse off (yes more greens but no 3 turn or 5 straight).

Biophysical, on 06 Aug 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

I agree with Vorpal Sword. There's also a whole area to attack where the ship will get only it's secondary turret (the flanks) even when the Phantom is docked. For a large ship that is clearly banking on getting something out of the 4-dice primary weapon, that's a big weakness.

edit: a large ship that also caps out at PS7.

It has FCS hello advanced sensors. It has barrel roll. It has a GREEN 4 forward.... so 1,2,3 straight are also green.

Its going to be an awesome ship. I am not sure it will be tournament competitive but its going to be CRAZY fun to play casual.

I'm not saying it will be bad or unfun, I'm saying I strongly doubt it will be overpowering.

My big concern with the Ghost is that it may not be good enough. I thought 4 Attack was some kind of joke when I first saw it, but think about it--the VCX-100 without the Phantom attached is a really expensive ship that, unlike most Large ships, just has a front arc. It's no more durable than a Firespray, and it lacks the rear arc (which, speaking for myself only, gets used more than half the time). It has to make up for that somehow: the Lambda got a huge cost cut, the IG-2000 got a brilliant dial, and (judging by the publicly available information) the Ghost got a high Attack value.

Jousting efficiency @ PS7 without an EPT or any named pilot ability:

95.8% for 4/0/10/6 @ 40 points (30.7 points in raw dice @PS1)

Now add FCS in the System Upgrade slot and assume 50% chance free TL:

102.6% for 4/0/10/6 + FCS @ 42 points (34.5 points in raw dice @PS1)

And that's without considering any other upgrades or crew. It looks unlikely to be a total flop unless the dial is really bad. The biggest limitation will probably be the forced bid to PS7. I'll reserve judgement until I see the dial.

For a ship with so many upgrade options, that is a really good efficiency. Much like a Decimator, it's not just the raw stats - it's that every point of upgrades is improving a hull worth so much to begin with. Also, if the playtesting is limited... yeah, this dial is going to be fantastic or it's going to be mediocre. A 4-green does not strike me as 'mediocre', and of late Alex hasn't gone for halves on big ship dials at all.

I'm actually a little worried now, though with any luck the prospect of only chasing a single ship around the table will help there... I'll just have to make sure there's at least one PS8 pilot in my imperial builds. Not that I ever didn't, but..

From my recollection - Alex never said that the play testing and design was truncated, as some seem to be suggesting in the last few pages here. He did say that the design was pushed to the end of the timeframe allotted, but not that the design was somehow compromised by that process.

Jacob

Jousting efficiency @ PS7 without an EPT or any named pilot ability:

95.8% for 4/0/10/6 @ 40 points (30.7 points in raw dice @PS1)

Now add FCS in the System Upgrade slot and assume 50% chance free TL:

102.6% for 4/0/10/6 + FCS @ 42 points (34.5 points in raw dice @PS1)

And that's without considering any other upgrades or crew. It looks unlikely to be a total flop unless the dial is really bad. The biggest limitation will probably be the forced bid to PS7. I'll reserve judgement until I see the dial.

How bad would that dial have to be? I'm giggling now at the idea of a ship with a red 0 and a green 4 straight and nothing else.