I was finally able to play my first game with a friend. We were using core set decks. I have 3 others interested so this is just the start of something that we're all excited about!

Anyway, like many in this thread I was hoping to post the questions we had and see if folks can help us with clarifications and/or answers. I tried reading many of the threads already here to help with some questions. Please forgive if these have been posted already or are obvious (in the rules or faq). It took us almost 2 hours to play the first game going back and forth trying to remember common terms and such, but the 2nd time was faster and we can already tell we're hooked!

Here goes!

1. What does the infinity symbol at the top left near the titles indicate?

2. T174 Forever Burning - We were surprised when we quickly saw this card was something the owner could use over and over each round (assuming you can pay for getting it back into your hand each time)? Follow up, if you had more then 1 could you use it twice on the same character?

3. L194 The Power of blood - I assume this plot does not protect nobles from being discarded? For Example: T176 Westeros Bleeds. If someone plays the S201 Valar Morghulis plot card are nobles are still protected as long as The Power of Blood is resolved before Valar Morghulis (i.e. player with The Power of blood plot card ends up as first player in the plot phase framework action)?

4. S8 Robb Stark - Does Robb's response come after a military challenge victory requiring the defending opponent to choose and kill a number of his characters in play equal to the claim value on the attacker’s revealed plot card? In other words, does the response to kill an additional character happen before or after the military challenge kill(s)? We assumed after at first, but now I'm not so sure (see below). How does that fit into the player/framework action flowchart?

Responses on a card are still a bit confusing. Or rather I think we are struggling with player actions vs framework actions. If the response is a challenge framework action does the response happen after determining winner, result being implemented, reward for unopposed, or renown? Reading the flow now it makes me wonder if we were wrong and it follows the "determining winner" framework action before "result being implemented" thus making it so the response to kill a character controlled by the losing player is before the military result being implemented that also kills a character(s) of the opponents choice. I hope that makes sense as it's confusing just typing/thinking it out here! Finally, is it a choice of the player to use the response?

5. Can you use a locations ability (example: kneeling to do something, an effect that makes cards costs less to marshall, etc.) the turn it comes into play?

6. B86 Renly's Courtier - How does this "Any Phase" action work against a card like S22 Trident Reinforcements? Specifically, can Renly's Courtier target Trident Reinforcements' printed text during the dominance phase in the dead pile so someone could not return Trident Reinforcements from the dead pile to their hand? Our guess is if the player who has Trident Reinforcements goes first they would be able to bring it into their hand before someone could us Renly's Courtier, but if if the player who has Renly's Courtier goes first then they could use the any phase action to nullify Trident Reinforcements text, but would have to do that and not pass? Follow up to that, can all (or just some maybe) actions be used against an opponents discard and/or dead pile cards?

7. What's the benefit or drawback to placing location cards that allow you to attatch to a House card? (example S28 Lord Eddard's Chambers)

8. At first the House specific keywords were confusing us, and we think we understand it now. At first we believed that when cards said things like "kneel X card to lower the cost of the next --House specific keyword icon-- card you play this phase by X #" it was only for House specific keywords on cards like Ambush, Infamous, Intimidate, Stalwart, Vengeful, & Vigilant. After some game play we now assume reading the cards and seeing them in play that these house specific keyword icons in text on cards can be used for any card that are for/in that specific house?

Appreciate the help!

1. It's just a visual reminder that the card has an ability that can be triggered from the discard or dead pile.

2. Of course. They are considered two separate cards with two separate effects. There is nothing preventing you from using two separate cards with separate effects on the same character - unless there is some sort of limiter written on the card itself.

Oh, BTW: Wait until your Targ player realizes he can play that card, pay to get it back, then play it again immediately in the same Dominance phase.

3. Couple of things here. First, you are correct; "cannot be killed" does not protect the character from being discarded. "Killed" and "discarded" are different things. Second, it doesn't matter who goes first if Power of Blood and Valar are revealed in the same plot phase because Power of Blood is a constant, "always on" effect. So it is active from the moment it is revealed and doesn't need any sort of turn order before it "turns on." So Power of Blood protects from Valar no matter who the First Player is. Third, note that when you have a bunch of "when revealed" plot effects, the First Player gets to choose the order in which they resolve. It doesn't start with the First Player's plot, then go clockwise from there (unless the First Player wants it to). The First Player can choose whatever order they want when passive effects conflict like that.

4. He is a Response. So he happens in Step 5 of the flowchart. Claim is a framework event, so it initiates in Step 1 and resolves in Step 3. Rule of thumb: all 4 of the things involved in resolving a challenge (determining the winner, settling claim, awarding unopposed and awarding Renown) always happen and are resolved completely before any passive effect or Response to any of them can take place.

You may be over-thinking this. What it comes down to is that multiple Response opportunities can be (and usually are) open at the same time. Each of the 4 things involved in resolving the challenge happen in Steps 1-3, then passives activated by any and all of them happen in Step 4, then Responses to any and all of the happen in Step 5. So while there are 4 parts to resolving the challenge, the challenge must resolve completely before any passives and/or Responses to any individual part can take place.

Oh, and as for the First Player getting to choose to use Responses, are you seriously wondering that? I mean, if I am First Player and you have a Response, are you really thinking that I get to tell you whether you can use it or not? Responses are triggered effects, so while the controller of the card must specifically choose to use it, the First Player has no say in the matter one way or the other. I mean, how would I even know if you had Responses to play, especially if they are on event cards?

5. Yes. There is no summoning sickness in this game. So if the timing works out for a card that you just played, you can use it right away.

6. Absolutely no card effect can be used on a card in any player's discard or dead pile unless the card effect specifically says it can. So, since Renly's Courtier does not say she can be used on a card in the discard or dead pile, she can't. Renly's Courtier is not an answer to keeping the Trident Reinforcements out of play. She is a god answer to Robb Stark, though, blanking out his text box before a military challenge even begins.

7. When you attach the location to the House card, it becomes an attachment. You cannot affect it with cards that target locations - but you can target it with cards that target attachments. So look at the plot "Fleeing to the Wall." If you have played your Chambers as an attachment, it would not count one way or the other in the "pick 3 locations, discard the rest" and becomes a pretty good way to keep the gold and influence around when your opponent is gunning for your locations. Of course, if your opponent is gunning for your attachments (like the plot "Mad King's Legacy"), the card would be safer as a location.

Make sense? If you're playing against Targ, the Chambers are safer as locations because Targs tend to be gunning for attachments. Just about everyone else is more likely to be gunning for locations, so it's safer as an attachment.

8. More to the point, those symbols that you see in the rule book next to the House specific keywords are not "short-hand" for the keyword; they are short-hand for the House. They are in the rule book by the keywords to help identify the associated House, not to identify the associated keyword. So when a card says "(wolf head symbol) character only," it means "STARK character only," not "STALWART character only." It's a pretty confusing design in the rule book, actually.

ktom said:

Sorry, Ktom, but if my mind doesn't fool me (I can't check the card in this moment...), Renly's courtier can target only NON-UNIQUE characters, so on Robb Stark she is uneffective...

thorin_81 said:

Yep, you are absolutely right. tzumainn.com/agot/cards/card.php

Yup. That's what you get when trying to illustrate a point with easy examples, I guess. Point being, the Courtier is useful for blocking effects like Robb's (now assuming the character in non-unique), not Trident Reinforcements.

ktom said:

When I look at the flowchart for plot it says,

"2. Initiative is counted
3. High initiative player
appoints “First Player”
4. "When revealed" plot
effects resolve (In order
determined by First Player)"

Ok, I now understand that Power of Blood is an "always on effect" thus protecting from Valar. And in cases where plot effect conflicts may happen the first player decides which plot effect to resolve first by winning initiative. Cool! Thanks for the clarification and insight.

ktom said:

To simplify it in my head for that specific situation it means Robb Stark's text to pick and kill an opponents character happens second. Got it!

My thought on asking about responses being optional was thinking that there may be situations, say multi player or whatever, where a player, not first player, may want to choose not to use one of their responses. The key being it is an optional response and not a forced response by the player who could do so. I understand it now as it is optional. Thanks!

ktom said:

It was confusing! Thanks for recognizing that so we don't feel as silly for making the mistake. Inititally we definitely had it wrong, but as we started playing we noticed the issue during gameplay and I can see how we misunderstood at first.

Thanks for your help! I'm sure we'll have more questions next time we play and I'll use this thread to post future questions.

Madduxx said:

It was confusing! Thanks for recognizing that so we don't feel as silly for making the mistake.

Don't feel silly. Mistaking those symbols to be short-hand for the keyword instead of for the House is the absolute most common misunderstanding people whose first exposure to the game's rules is the Core Set rule book have. It is undoubtedly a shortcoming of the rule book, not of anyone reading it.

ktom said:

Madduxx said:

It was confusing! Thanks for recognizing that so we don't feel as silly for making the mistake.

Don't feel silly. Mistaking those symbols to be short-hand for the keyword instead of for the House is the absolute most common misunderstanding people whose first exposure to the game's rules is the Core Set rule book have. It is undoubtedly a shortcoming of the rule book, not of anyone reading it.

Yep. I just had to help a couple of new guys out with that very same issue. Don't feel silly.

I got a chance to play with another friend tonight to show him the game (as expected he likes it! ) and had a few more questions. I think I know the answers to these, but I wanted to post just to be sure. It's late and I'm trying to get 'em all out before I go to sleep so please forgive if their obvious or don't make sense.

1. Duplicates - Can you discard a duplicate character to protect that character from being killed from the S201 Valar Morghulis plot card? When your opponent wins a military challenge against you, you may choose a duplicate character to be killed to satisfy any military claim(s)? Same for deadly if they are participating in the challenge?

2. S2 Nymeria - Similar to the above can you use cards like what Nymeria does to "kneel X to save attached character from being killed" to protect a character from being killed from Valar, military, and deadly examples above? Finally, after you kneel this card it remains on the character to be used again once it stands?

3. L56 Lannisport Brothel - "Response: After a knelt character stands during the standing phase, kneel Lannisport Brothel to kneel that character." Can you use this card every standing phase? Or is it every other standing phase assuming you can't use Lannisport Brothel after standing it since it stands with other cards during that phase and the response couldn't be used since it has to stand as well? I hope that makes sense.

4. A card that is "immune to character abilities" can not be killed by deadly if used as a defender against an attacker that has deadly (assuming the attacker have more deadly characters in the challenge of course)? Follow up, if another character was participating as a defender that does not have immunity with the character "immune to character abilities" you'd have to kill it to satisfy deadly and couldn't choose to ignore the immunity (i.e. if you'd rather your immune character died instead).

Thanks again!

1) Yes on all counts. And if I were ktom, I ask, is there a reason you think you shouldn't be able to? (For farther clarification if needed.) :-)

2) Yes again, same as above. And yes it's totally repeatable each time it stands, of couse!

3) You can use the brothel immediately upon it's standing, as the window for Responses has not yet passed while everything has just stood. As a result, your Brothel will almost always be knelt throughout the turn except for a brief moment before you use it each standing phase. (Also note, that the brothel was misprinted and should be Unique!)

4) Keywords such as Deadly, Stealth, Etc, are not "character" abilities actually. They're "card" abilities for rules purposes, which requires a different immunity. (For instance see the character Cat 'o The Canals.) So a card immune strictly to character abilities will still be subject to Deadly, or be a legal target for Stealth and so on. But yes, you are correct that in a situation where you may want to optionally select a card with an immunity you can't 'turn it off' voluntarily so to speak.

RJM said:

Ok, wow! That's a powerful card I need to figure out how best to deal with/destroy!

RJM said:

Interesting. I am glad I asked since I would have assumed deadly would be a character/card abilitiy. The immunity you'd need to protect from deadly, stealth, etc would be immunity to card effects then? When a character has immunity to character abilities what sort of things would that protect from? I think I know a few but would like to make sure I understand correctly and are familiar with everything.

Thanks for the help!

Madduxx said:

Correct. Keywords do not count as "character abilities" by definition, but anything written on a card is a "card effect."

Immunity to character abilities would protect from anything written on a character card in play (other than traits, keywords and flavor text) that tries to directly affect the immune card. Robb Stark, Ser Ilyn Payne, Cersei Lannister, Renly's Courtier, Melisandre's "+1 STR to Asshai" ability are all examples of things that would be ignored by a card with "immune to character abilities".

I played again tonight and this time I was able to try my hand at constructing a deck with the available cards we have (1 core + 1 of each Clash of Arms chapter packs). I'm really digging getting more into the deck strategies! I made a Targ deck and played against Lannister. Here are the questions we came up with. Once again, please forgive if they're obvious or unclear as it's late and I'm trying to get them all here before I forget!

1. F38 Dragon Bite - What's the timing for this on a character that has this attachment that participates in a challenge against a Dragon? The card is killed before unoppossed is determined and also before any claim? If so, I can't think of a good reason to ever want to participate in that case...

2. L194 The Power of Blood - Can someone chose to kill a Noble to satisfy any military claim, and in doing so - would that noble then be saved?

3. When there is an attachment on someone elses card and that card leaves play (killed, discarded, etc.) does the now discarded attachment go to it's owners discard pile?

4. When you take control of someones character if that character ever leaves play (killed, discarded, etc.) who's dead/discard pile does it go into?

5. Can you always look in a dead and/or discard pile (yours or someone elses)? I assume you have to keep these piles in order?

6. S199 Snowed Under - Does each player, "At the beginning of the standing phase, choose one kneeling character or location controlled by each player. Return all chosen cards to their owner's hands."? Or is it only the owner of that plot that gets to chose one kneeling character or location controlled by each player (one of which would be your own)?

7. T126 Xaro's Home, T180 Lady Daenerys's Chambers, & various Targ attachments (F38 Dragon Bite, T104 Bones of a child, T103 Flame-kissed, etc.) My Targ deck was focused on utilizing these cards as it's core strategy, basically drawing cards and re-using attachments when possible/needed. It seemed incredibly strong, maybe too strong, that I was wondering if we missed something that may have errata to give it a more limited action. For example, maybe limiting a locations ability so it can't be used over and over. Once I got rolling I was able to use this combination on a few cards almost every turn. I'm sure there are ways to stop this and esp hurt my hand size, but for this initial game it worked great since my opponnent didn't have anything to stop it!

Thanks once again for your help!

Madduxx said:

Yes, character is killed and put in dead pile at the end of kneeling attackers or defenders framework action (thus before challenge resolution). This card is designed as a kinda stealth effect.

Madduxx said:

No, you can't even try to kill a noble. You must choose some other character.

Madduxx said:

Yes. Generally - cards you own always return to your deck/pile/hand/shadow area.

Madduxx said:

See above.

Madduxx said:

Yes and yes.

Madduxx said:

The owner gets to choose.

Madduxx said:

No errata. Just remember that you can't use these responses with "put into play" actions (e.g. ambush or Khal Drogo).

Rogue30 said:

In terms of how strong the deck/strategy is, keep in mind just how many cards you need out at the same time, plus both influence and gold resources available to take advantage of them. It is strong, but it is not easy to pull off consistently. That kind of balances things out.

ktom said:

Gotcha. It did take me awhile to get things rolling, we have a small card pool to work from, I had a great draw that got out 6 cards in setup, and currently our games typically last 7-9 turns. We also normally have tons of cards in play by mid game. I'm sure that'll change as we get a better understanding of how to construct and strategize our decks to deal with the other players cards.

Totally agree with Ktom. Stole my words.

I'm playing a Targ/Bones of a child deck and it needs LOT of effort to work well (sometimes I think that it's not worth the deal).

But the mechanics is weird and powerful and sometimes gave unespected twists, especially in Multiplayer.

At first, YOU HAVE TO go summer, if you hope to have enough gold to make that strategy effective at his maximum.

Second, it's a pretty hard to play deck, believe me. If you focus a lot on interactions, you've to think very well on every step (timing, responses, play Red Warlock, search an attachment, take back an attachment, play the attachment, kneel influence to draw a card, play Xaro Xaon Daxos, get it back, get an attachment back, etc.).

And in the end, sometimes all the effort ends up being nullified by some High Strength Buddies.

So, I like it, but I've to admit that is not as effective as it may seem and you have to WORK VERY WELL in DECKBUILDING to make it EFFICIENT. If you look at it on a competitive level, think about some rush decks or the infamous Lanni kneel (I love it, don't misuderstand me ;-)), are out there waiting for their turn to nullify your effort.

Just to point that out, with my own little experience about it.

DB

We are finally getting to play with greater speed now that we recognize some cards, and the basics don't require (as many) rule references to be sure. In other words, we're getting better and really enjoying things!

2 questions from tonight.

1. F91 Midnight Sentry says, " Characters with stalwart get +1 STR." If you have more then 1 of these in play do they provide a +1 OR +2 STR bonus to stalwart characters?

2. S199 Snowed Under - Can duplicates be used to save characters from being returned to an owner's hand against this plot?

Madduxx said:

Each one give +1. For example if you got 3 of them on table, then each one have 4 STR.

Madduxx said:

Yes.

Rogue30 said:

In general, each card is to be resolved separately. So if you have 3 copies of a particular card, each one resolves once.

I mention this rule of thumb because it impacts a lot of things, but also because it is better to think of 3 of these guys on the table as making each Stalwart character " Base STR + 1 +1 +1" instead of "Base STR + 3." It doesn't really make a difference in this example, but there are other situations where it does (for example, if cancels are used to counter the STR increase).

Random stuff -

1. It's easier to track all our questions coming up in this one thread personally. However, is it annoying doing so? Or better put would it be better to post new threads each time?

2. Food for thought. I played CCG's back in the day, and one thing I forgot that I really enjoy is this game is so new to us that instead of getting frustrated when things are going poorly, not like we expected, or when someone pulls out a nice combo is being able to appreciate it, understand it and learn. I hope that feeling never goes away.

Appreciate your help once again!

1. F27 Fury of the stag - "Power Struggle. House Baratheon only. After you win a challenge against an opponent with a Lannister or a Martell House card, choose a character controlled by that opponent. Take control of that character."

If the Baratheon player with this plot wins a challenge against one of the noted houses when they choose to take control of a character controlled by that opponent and it has power on that character does the power also come with it?

2. B67 Motley "Condition. Attach to an opponent's character. Attached character's controller must give you 1 gold token from his or her gold pool each time he or she wishes to declare attached character as an attacker or defender, or trigger attached character's ability."

F2 - Jhalabar Xho reads, "Opponent's characters cannot claim power for renown."

Is Jhalabar's text considered a trigger for the purposes of when he has Motley on him? Or instead I assume this is considered a Lasting effect, and thus would not be effected by Motley's text when using triggered abilities?

3. L40 - Tywin Lannister reads, "At the beginning of the marshalling phase, take 2 gold from the treasury and place it on Tywin Lannister. You may spend gold tokens on Tywin Lannister as if they are in your gold pool."

Does gold placed on Tywin leave play during the taxation phase? I assume no. Also, if not, can he continue to add 2 gold each marshalling phase - thus allowing you to have more then 2 gold on him?

Thanks!

1. F27 Fury of the stag - "Power Struggle. House Baratheon only. After you win a challenge against an opponent with a Lannister or a Martell House card, choose a character controlled by that opponent. Take control of that character."

If the Baratheon player with this plot wins a challenge against one of the noted houses when they choose to take control of a character controlled by that opponent and it has power on that character does the power also come with it?

Yes.

2. B67 Motley "Condition. Attach to an opponent's character. Attached character's controller must give you 1 gold token from his or her gold pool each time he or she wishes to declare attached character as an attacker or defender, or trigger attached character's ability."

F2 - Jhalabar Xho reads, "Opponent's characters cannot claim power for renown."

Is Jhalabar's text considered a trigger for the purposes of when he has Motley on him? Or instead I assume this is considered a Lasting effect, and thus would not be effected by Motley's text when using triggered abilities?

It's a lasting effect. Triggered abilities are the ones with the bold "Action", "Response", "Any phase", "Phase" wording. Thet are optional and can be triggered when proper conditions are met (Responses) or normal abilities like general "actions" where you decide or not to trigger it.

3. L40 - Tywin Lannister reads, "At the beginning of the marshalling phase, take 2 gold from the treasury and place it on Tywin Lannister. You may spend gold tokens on Tywin Lannister as if they are in your gold pool."

Does gold placed on Tywin leave play during the taxation phase? I assume no. Also, if not, can he continue to add 2 gold each marshalling phase - thus allowing you to have more then 2 gold on him?

Tywin's gold is NOT part of the gold pool.

That's a "passive effects" which takes place at the beginning of the Marshalling phase: so, each Marshalling, you take 2 gold and put them on the old badass.

Thanks!

Nothing.

DB_Cooper said:

Terminology lesson: Jhalabar Xho is not technically a "lasting effect." He is a "constant effect." Constant effects are effects that are valid and applicable to the game situation as long as the card is in play. It doesn't really have a point of initiation, other than putting the card into play. (Ask yourself this: if you put Motley on Xho, when would that opponent give the gold since no one has any control over when Xho's ability works?) A "lasting effect" is an effect that, once activated, has a specified duration - and keeps going until then regardless of anything else. The card that activated the effect could leave play, be blanked, etc. and the effect would still continue until its specified duration, like an event card that gives a STR boost "until the end of the phase." A lasting effect can be activated by either a triggered effect or a passive effect.

Doesn't make a huge difference for the question of Motley vs. Xho question, but the difference between a constant effect and a lasting effect can be pretty important.

Absolutely right and precise. As usual.