Here it goes again. Regrardless of what is said and what you try to do to fix it, it is impossible for it not to happen. Welcome to the new cheap trick of UFS, or rather one that is not new just in some peoples minds a little abused. Since the beginning of the all mini-block madness, it has donned to me from a good friend of mine that throws are the 'new' cheapness of the game. Sigh, yep it is insane ain't it? Throws no doubt have been a nuisance to deal with with some people. As for me, i love the **** things 100%. Nothing says loving like throwing people around like rag dolls. When I first played this games, Fight for thr Future and Darkstalkers came out. I entered the arena near the end of block one. Spiral DDT being one of my favorites was a good choice for me as I had no access to Chain Throw, a throw that would vex me badly in the ECC 2008. It makes me wonder why it was not a big deal than and suddenly why it is a big deal now. It is true that blocking is a little bit harder, but not so bad that if you play it right you can still make it. I guess that is not the issue.

Is it because people can damage pump the hell out of them? Wasn't a big deal when absurd strength came following the infamous perfect attack known as Chain Throw. Or better yet, two more after that nice little blue card. Look, throws are always going to be a nuisance, but block 4 was not the first to abuse the throw and it will not be the last. I am sure that there will be answers to it soon, maybe through balanced damage redux cards or cards with static text stating that when a throw attack is blocked no damage is dealt. Point, there is always going to be some parts of any game that will be veiwed as cheap. Your thoughts people, the floor is now open to you.

Cheap trick? Surrender. -Rimshot.-

Seriously though, I can't see anything 'cheap' about this format. I guess maybe Throws, but they're not a big deal unless you play one of a maybe four characters.

Throws are balanced by a couple of facts. The first is that they can be reduced by card effects and then they are reduced again after they are blocked. The next is that a damage pump of a throw is in the end, if blocked, only going to give half of its damage pump value. Most important thing is without massive healing it keeps the game moving which is the prime reason they are being used now in UFS.

A bunch of 3-4 Damage 5 Difficulty Throws are nothing. Try being around in the era of Overhand Throw, Strike Heads, Ohicho Throw, Chain Throw and Air Piledriver. With To the Bone, Penetrating Lunge, Mission of Peace and Material Advantage. What Throw issue are we having right now?

As long as they stay statistically blergh and we are given something that can drop maybe 2-3 damage per attack they'll be fine. Although I do notice a horrible similarity between Over the Shoulder and Overhand Throw...

Like i know people have complaining about throws since the rotations, but like im not seeing it?

The only character that you could argue absolutely abuses throws is king. Fury needs to run the 6diff throws to even matter and that chews up his foundations for the turn. Over the shoulder and crushing embrace are fine in fire but they aren't game breaking.

Mt. Do is right on target with his comparison though. NOTHING is as broken as Chain Throw Hammer KFT garbage. I think the people who find throws overpowered have never really played in a format where EVERYONE's attack base ran that little gem of a combo.

Throws are not overpowered in this format. They are all well costed and warrant consideration when building. Do i want to play Crushing embrace and give up a block vs. the multitude of other solid attacks with a block? LIke its not like they are auto includes at this point in the format.

If you all want to look at an overpowered keyword in this format ... hell look at stun. So good right now!

darklogos said:

I would beg to differ on the fact that throws are anywhere near balanced in this new block. Maybe it's because of the next soul caliber was origanaling set to be released with tekken (i've heard down the grape vine that soul caliber was supposed to help level these attacks out), and yes trips you are right that these attacks are not a big deal unless played by a hand full of certain characters. I havent played in other play groups since this rotation hit so i dont know if there truley is a meta to get around them, but i also play in the same area as Mt_Do and i know the person who is upset about the throws and he is 100% right (as I said atleast we havent found a way to get around it). Forinstance i curently play Ragnar (soon to change charater to Brian Fury, but keep the same build) and i by turn three at the absolute latest i can toss three straight thows of 20+ damage ON THE SAME TURN, Im not claiming to have some sort of broken build and we do have other players in our group hat can abuse throws just as much. All im saying is if there is a deck out there that does not rely on throws for the win that consistently beat one that does please show me.

Hughes >> How about Fire Astrid? Or, depending on the meta, Kazuya? Paul Phoenix full stun is consistent.

I agree lol Fire astrid is stupid. There is no way people can complain about POTM if Astrid can do it every attack, just by commiting one foundation. She is top tear by herself...

darklogos said:

OK, let me state that in a legible sentence now. Half the damage pump value is certainly 100% better than taking NO damage by actually full-blocking something that is NOT a throw. The game CAN move forward without throws, as all the blocks in the game are stupidly high unless you use attacks to block.

What's the risk of pumping a throw with Berserker Rage? In the end, if the throw is blocked, you both lost the same life, plus your opponent lost half of whatever the damage of the throw was without BR.

No, the fact that throws are blocked is NOT a balancing factor. Try again.

Look, there are some ways to mess with throws. but these ways are not guaranteed and some of these ideas work with only a few set symbols. For starters blocking with that Cervantes attack that puts a static text -1 to your checks. A double edged sword, true, but effective nonetheless. Anything Breaker, Stun, or Astrid. Foundation destruction. (Make it harder for them to pass checks.) These are very few and far between. The real point is that we have to give this **** sometime. As you have stated hughes, there has been news down the grapvine that there are answers in Soul Calibur IV. Problem with that though is that it is probaly going to have fire and the next gripe will be that you have to use fire to have an answer. (Just bracing for the inevitable impact guys.) Finally, we have to look at the fact that with the early roatation, somthing like this would have happend. What I am wondering is how in block 2 I built a starter Sagat deck with Tiger furies and Spiral DDT's and one more than one occasion, was able to dish out three Spirals anywhere between 14-26 damage. Sure there was redux, but I managed to pump the damage high enough. Mind you this was before lovely rejection.

I guess no one complained then because there was damage redux and with tekken 6 we are seeing a little bit of that come back due to king's support. So there is some attempt. I guess that is the only reason that there may have not been any complaints. But as this game progresses through block 4, we need to remember that there will be issues that come up from time to time. Will this be recurring? Maybe...but as long as the nasty mistakes are not repeated. Still one should learn from there mistakes big or small but I digress-Throws maybe a problem, but I think that this will be nipped in the bud soon enough.

There is damage reduction as an option. Its just that people don't want to run or it is seen as impractical. I've seen Hilde do insane speed bump on an attack. You couldn't full block it because you don't have enough cards in your staging area. Also considering that Fire and life has some good speed pumps so straight up blocks could be hard if the opponent is playing lots of stun. So when I see the meta on a landscape I see throws as fine. If turn 2 and 3 kills is ok then I don't get the gripe. If the throws are top tier just run throws until something else moves in. One thing that should be put in place is that throws can fully negate throws. But hey what do I know.

Throw are not even as bad as they use to be. I do remember the day when a good throw had to at least five damage i.e overhand throw, strike heads, and chain throw. The other big thing to is any throw over base damage is a 2 check. Throw are cool but they are not even as close as destructive as they used to be.

Damage reduction IS an option, but it's a terrible one right now.

Think of any card that gives a damage pump, and think of every card that reduces damage. What's the average damage pump? What's the average reduction? How many cards are in the meta that will reduce damage below 1?

You'll be surprised (but I'm not) to see that damage pump is far greater for the same costs than damage reduction. It's not a bad thing, but it also doesn't excuse throws.

Hungry for Battle can be a free +1 or +2, or commit 1 for +3. Considering the most costly scenario is committing 1 foundation for +3 (or checking a 2, committing 2 for +4 which is akin to Stand Off but unnegatable), let's see how many damage reduction cards can do what it does.

Shadowar = commit for -2, commit 1 foundation for +1/+1 only to Shadowar attacks.
Man Behind the Mask = free -1!!!....... and free +1. Woot, just as easy to do both. Not to mention you'd need up to three to combat a single Hungry for Battle, and you need to be half dead.
Mexican Sensation = yay -3 damage with minimum 1, only for Earth characters and only if you're running a 6 HS against Hilde, Tira, Jon Herr, JJ and perhaps one more character. Hilde would love for you to use it, Tira can make an attack multiple:1 so she doesn't care, jon has Evil and so does JJ.
Toughest in the Universe = action card reduction is in an action card. Not reusable like most viable damage pump.
Enemies and Friends = -2 no minimum for commit, giving the next attack played (if this attack deals damage which a throw will), gets +4 damage. Unless you randomly have a reversal, mostly pointless.

Now let's look at damage pump:
Brooding = lose 1 for +1. Sure, losing 1 is not easy (unless you have a 6 hand size), but you don't have to commit anything.
Enraged Golem = +5 at best, +4 at worst, no damage reduction card can consistently undo the damage this will do.
Unstoppable Warrior = +4 damage for popping a foundation, and for all you care it may very well be something you committed to make the check with. If anything, it gives some more fuel for the following card.
All Life is Prey = worst case is commit 1 for +1, but with Unstoppable Warrior in play or in certain characters (Bryan Fury), commit 1 for +3 is very easy.

Damage reduction is simply not enough to counter all the damage pump.

Iron body technique does work. It can be effective in Christie and in White Crane if built right due to the speed pumps that can be abused from her Form. You can build up a good amount of momentum. One or even two of them can make a throw crap. Faithful bodyguard makes additional character cards worth while outside of the "lol mid block" that everyone hates. I've splashed in g-corp with White crane and it worked great. I'm not asking throws to get to zero. But getting a -1 for ever 2 damage is going balance out during the block in which the attack gets cut in half.

Thing is that in people's concern of throws and asking for damage reduction it will only create a bigger problem relaunching the monster of damage reduction prevelent in the previous block. Reusable high damage reduction goes against where the game is going. But reward of the risk of Iron body technique is there. Anything that would make throws damage nuetred will blow itself upholding the current trend.

Reduction should not be as good as pump. Otherwise you end up where we were 3 months ago - how best to turtle to a kill condition. Things like Battle Disc System or Rejection should never exist. This game is about hurting your opponent and without useful speed pumps outside of Hilde Throws are the go. Try out thinking your opponent rather than just reducing. Resource managemnt is key - if you can keep your opponent starved it becomes hard for them to string Throws or have the grey to continually pump. This may involve destroying Foundations via Nightmare or Kazuya's support, blanking with Rashotep's or Siegfried's or tapping it out. Using part reduction (Sa, Symbol of Protection is nice, so is Stone Skin) combined with Ka Technique for the partial damage to prevent the next one from getting the pump is always good.

I can name decks that will reliably kill Throw decks - Ivy, Hilde and Jin come to mind. So does Tira and Astrid. So do Throw decks....

Besides, if you get rid of Throws someone will just cry that you can't hurt a 28 Vitality Character who full blocks every attack becasue there is no reliable speed buffs.

oops double posty, my b..............

Hughes said:

HUGHSIE MADE A NEW FORUM NAME!!!!!!!

And it's true, his build can ind33d toss out 3x throw for ridiculous amounts of damage on turn 3. I dunno about 20+dmg for all of them, but they are ridiculous.

Nekuro said:

Hughes has consistently beat Kazuya, and Paul Phoenix. He's 50/50 with Astrid.

Seriously Mt_Do, don't listen to Bob. He obviously didn't play during 1st set when Sagat sat there and proceeded to loop 3x 1spd 9dmg Overhand Throws every turn with Material Advantage. He obviously didn't play during set 3 when 8HS Hanzo T2ked you with a lineup of 4x Strike Heads/Air Backbreaker/Overhand Throw/Glass Slippers/ etc, something WORSE than what is out now. It's just a player that is finding it hard to accept the meta right now because he never really played throws before. It is true that this format right now is throw-dominated but I don't see how it was any different than set 1, set 3, or block 2 with Chain Throw/Absurd/Absurd.

To quote Hughes, "All im saying is if there is a deck out there that does not rely on throws for the win that consistently beat one that does please show me."

Um, there are a lot. The best builds of Fire, for example, rarely use throws. I posted my Fire Hata deck in the forums, and it is a serious tournament deck with no throws in it. Life Ivy, which is essentially a combo deck, can go off as early as turn 2 without a single **** throw. Heihachi is a beast and definitely underrated, and he can toss ridiculous damage attacks all day. Most builds of Jin and Kazuya that I've seen or played with/against do not use throws or run maybe 4-8 out of 16-20 attacks, which is perfectly reasonable. The ATL crew's Zi Mei deck uses only 12 attacks (only one of which is for damage, lol) and no throws. And of course, Astrid - the best deck in the format almost inarguably - abuses Weapons, not throws. So, your argument is fallacious.

Who cares about the throws? I don't. There are so many answers, hell even **** like Undisputed Ruler now works with the keyword to cancel it out (I believe). On top of that, there is GOOD damage redux out there, very good. In fact, I would say nearly every Fire deck is running Paid To Protect, Stand-Off, and The Ultimate Team in some form, and those are great offensive AND defensive foundations. And if you can toss 3 20+ damage throws in a turn, you SHOULD win. Good for you, you tossed 60 damage dude! If it took that much to kill anyone in the first place, that's a good thing - even with all that damage out, three half blocks and some basic redux will keep a 27 vit character alive and ready for their next turn. So, again, who cares?

Are the throws themselves abusive? No, they are just really good. Overhand Throw, Strike Heads, Chain Throw, and Glass Slippers - THOSE were broke-ass throws. the were undercosted, overpowerful and just everywhere. What we have now is a mix of decent, good and great throws, NONE of which are at the level that those four egregious offenders were. The main issue seems to be damage pumps, and I argue, again, that right now even that is fine. We don't have Chain Throw + KFT + 2x Hammer, GG on the first turn. No matter what deck you run, you got to manage your pumps and resources in general effectively or you risk overextended and losing. That's still the case, and I don't see it becoming a problem.

Seriously, what is the argument, Hughes? That no one without throws can win? That is false, as I have demonstrated. Or that the throws themselves are too good? That is also unsupported, given the evidence and the history of this game I assure you it is not the case. Or is the damage pumps are too much? With that, you could make the case that POTM is excessive and needs to be looked at (not what I think, but it's out there). Even still, I think most of the ridiculous pumps in this game are able to be dealt with, that's why cards like Ka Technique and asset destruction exist.

Instead of complaining without merit, my suggestion - run negation. There IS good negation out there. Run destruction, to make all those pumping foundations and assets harder to keep in play. Anticipate the meta and plan accordingly. And you'll be fine. Be more aggressive in your own builds, or more defensive as you see fit. Reserve more blocks, use things like MAC to cancel recursion, etc. Just my two cents.

My point exactly shane. Chain Throws backed up by Absurd Strength was the madness back than. I hated getting pummeled to death by it. But it was a legitmate strategy. Very legitimate strategy. Just a hard one to deal with especially when you could recur it with all the nasty tricks you can pull and than have it thrown at you again so the insanity would never end. The truth is though is that it is going to have answers in a few sets anyways, I just hope that it is a balanced answer and not a retarded one like rejection or bad vitality gain like battle prowess.

Throws blocking throws for complete block would make sense though especially since in fighting games when two players perform throws they cancel each other out. As seen in Street Fighter IV for example and I am certain SC IV. That would solve the nuisance without being an overpowerd dam. redux. Good suggestion I think.

Well thought out vik.

Duckman said:

Throws will always be better than regular attacks, unless your name is Astrid, Christie, Ivy, Paul or Steve Fox.

And not to be confrontational, but there are TONS of reliable speed buffs, just not for every symbol. These include Eisserne Drossel, Glanzende Nova and Frischer Himmel, Robes of the Grandmaster, Gay Vampires (Osterrheinsburg Castle Twilight), and although we're mentioning "reliable" speed pumps, it's hard to omit Keeper of the Watchers from this list. However, packing throws does take away the need to pack speed pumps, making room for more damage pump. That's always been the case, even before rotation. I think that's why the previous designer made all throws be 2 checks and have their effects only if they weren't blocked. Sadly, this was combined with way too much damage reduction and the result was grey wars.

My philosophy is that anything that gives more than +3 for a mere commit (speed or damage) is too much, and likewise is anything that reduces more than -2.

I'm glad someone is mentioning Sa, Symbol of Protection because I do believe it's a very reliable card.

guitalex2008 said:

If it wasn't for the fact that the R on Immovable Object is completely useless in this current format (except maybe to counter Switching Weapon Styles' non Ivy F), Immovable Object would be played.

It also stops Crane Strike.

I suppose the mission is to make a broken Crane Strike deck to force people to run Immovable Object.

Then again, Earth can run both Immovable Object and Sa, Symbol of Protection any **** way and not care about the R on Immovable Object.

VikramS said:

Undisputed does not work that way, as has been discussed in the Q & A Forum, my friend.

Secondly, I've always been a huge fan of reduction as well as throws. While it's true that throws aren't the only way to win, most decks do better with them as damage pump heavily outweighs reduction. Are there exceptions? Thank God, yes. Astrid does quite fine without them, as was mentioned.

However (and I've been saying this since the advent of the game), to cite promotional cards/hard-to-get cards isn't the strongest argument that there are "so many answers". That's not a jab at you at all. In fact, your examples are spot on, but one is much more likely to have the previously mentioned S,SoP or ENF (and yes, I know you were referring to Fire examples). If the trade forums are anything to go by, there's tons of folks who don't have even a single copy of Stand-Off or Paid to Protect.

Back to the topic at hand though, as has been mentioned before, throws have been strong for quite some time and are hardly a "new cheap trick". In most cases (I'm looking at you Ira-Spinta), to earn the throw keyword, the attack in question has some other shortcoming to balance it, this is most often a lower control check or a less favorable difficulty-to-damage ratio. There's no instant win throws out there, it's the ratio or damage pump versus damage reduction that is the culprit. i, for one, am not overly concerned as the rumor is that the next SoCal set will have a more immediate solution to throws.

All that being said, I'm not opposed to the idea of Lumber Axe being watermarked.

P.S. Guitalex2008, where were you when Fight or Flight was out? "My philosophy is that anything that gives more than +3 for a mere commit (speed or damage) is too much". I never heard anyone else back me on that.

I think throws have there place in the game. The only problem I have with them is the auto-win in a majority of cases that throws provide if someone is low vitality (blocking doesn't save you = sucks). If there was some sort of desparation rule re: throws and dealing damage I'd have no problem with them, and maybe there costing takes into account the ability to 'finish the deal' in a majority of cases.

In no way is playing throws cheap, the ones we have are costed fairly at the moment imo, what is needed is a way to cancel them with difficulty. It should not be easy to reduce throw damage to zero, it just must be possible. In the current environment, even with the most damage reduction in the world, you can't reliabily beat out damage pump, and this is GREAT, for all attacks but throws lol. So throw specific damage reduction, lets say a card that enhance comit discard a card, your opponent's attack get's -2 damage, if it is a throw it gets -6 damage and destroy this foundation, something that can combat throws on a rate with damage pump for a set amount of time... Or Lumber Axe, that was cool and probably isn't 'too' reusable in the meta (I'm looking at you Omar).

- dut