Easy, fighters can move and fire at ships as if activated by a ship but suffer a 1 speed penalty. So Y-Wings could move 2 during the fighter phase and fire at ships. A Tie Bomber could still move 3. The B-Wing is reduced to a speed of 1.

The rules for fighters just work fine, there's no need to change that, especially that early.

Rather than trying to change the rule to how you wish fighters played, try to think about how to take the most out of fighters within the current ruleset. In Rebel lists, fighters with a carrier ship (AFMK2) or multiple escort Nebs work very well and are great all rounders and damage multipliers for the fleet. In Imperial lists, fighters are much more specialized to do a single job. but they work fine at that too.

Regarding the comments that the top Imperial player noted that the more fighters there are, the easiest it will be to table the opponent is very true. However, if you spend 100 points in Fighters, and your ships aren't focused to support squadrons (as in combo with them with upgrade cards), the problem lies in list building rather than ruleset.

For example, a 2 ships Rebel list with AFMK2 with Gallant Haven, Adar Tallon and Expanded Hangar Bays, along with a Yavaris Neb will make 100 points worth of squadrons really a force to be reconned with. An Imperial list with 2 Carrier Victory Class, one being Corrupter leading a Rhymerball, with Chiraneau and Expanded Hangars, one being Flight Controllers with Expanded Hangars leading a fighter screen with TIE Fighters, Interceptors, Howlrunner and why not Soontir Fel in it will work wonders too.

List building is all about synergies between ships both strategically (upgrades) and tactically (on the tabletop maneuvers). If there is not many of that, regardless of whether you use squadrons or not, you'll be in trouble.

Balance-wise, squadrons are probably fine at 400 points. However, it really bugs me that capital ships are outrunning starfighters, which is just nonsensical. However, I don't know how to fix that without changing something big, so *shrug*.

I'm hoping that the general dis-use of fighters is noticed and leads to carrier specific ships. Specifically built ships meant to do nearly nothing but support a few squadrons. Do that, and it takes the need to do squad commands away from your ships that do damage. While still forcing the carriers to occasionally take engineering or nav commands.

That and I think 400 point fleets will help. I think changing rules this early in the game isn't needed.

a lot of drastic measures being suggested here

well, 400 points (where the distribution of max squads to ships, but you can fit multiple carriers supported by cheap anti-ship such as cr-90s) is already looking fine so not much problem there

if anything must be changed it wouldn't be something so drastic as a core mechanic. The easiest and least intrusive thing to do would be to roll back on the full tournament points award for wiping out ships and leaving squadrons just dangling.

if we're still so desperate after that, we could just give everything rogue (save squadron commands for dedicated support such as flight controllers/yavaris, for jumping on enemy squadrons before they activate in the squadron phase, for piling onto an enemy ship before it gets to activate etc.)

Post... Err... Post post, realized this may be a better location for this -

What about merging the ship and squadron phase entirely? All other rules would remain the same. Activate one ship or two squadrons. Squadrons require Rogue or Command to move and shoot in one activation.

Gives squadrons the one value they are missing, activations, and they're already point capped to prevent spam.

Post... Err... Post post, realized this may be a better location for this -

What about merging the ship and squadron phase entirely? All other rules would remain the same. Activate one ship or two squadrons. Squadrons require Rogue or Command to move and shoot in one activation.

Gives squadrons the one value they are missing, activations, and they're already point capped to prevent spam.

I respect your opinion but I can't imagine ffg is going to errata and change the structure of a game turn which also would invalidate the RRG in so many areas due to when squadron commands take effect and so on.

My guess, if they see a problem at all, would be to:

A). Adjust tournament rules regarding points granted when squadrons are still on the table;

B). Wave 3 ships will contain upgrade cards to increase the effectiveness of the squadron command range, attacking and/or defensive squadron buffs, ways to increase total squadrons on the table without violating the 1/3 points rule ie get 2 squadrons at no cost to total deployment, etc

I love playing with my toy space ships. But does anyone else miss when a game was complete when it was first released? The whole wait for wave3 this game isn't complete yet really gets to me and is why I stopped playing Xwing. But Just like movies without sequels I guess that is just in the past. Oh well time to pre-order an ISD.

And the only thing that squadrons need is a tweak in the tournament scoring system as others have said.

I also agree that to play without fighters is very un star wars. It's fitting to see TIEs chewed up by Xwings in the shadow of a Star destroyer.

I do think the Rebels should be able to field all fighters because that's they way they operate. rebs jump in hit and run and jump out. Or Ties are bought as part of their mothership So points for a VSD would be VSD+ 3 TIEs =??? and they have to launch from the VSD on turn 1. I know that is almost like rewriting the rules but It would feel more like star wars. My 2 cents as an old fogey, now get off my lawn.

Joe

I love playing with my toy space ships. But does anyone else miss when a game was complete when it was first released?

My 2 cents as an old fogey, now get off my lawn.

Joe

Pepperige Farms remembers...

I agree. Blame people for trying to speed up the development cycle. Both the corporate people and the public for demanding such quick turnaround.

But does anyone else miss when a game was complete when it was first released?

There has never been a miniature game that was complete really. Even in the early days of 40k, the game was never really complete.

So this idea of FFG is rushing Armada out the door is simply not true. The core set makes a completely playable game in every way that matters.

Honestly the whole idea that fighters need to be 'fixed' is largely a matter of opinion. The game works fine without them, it's just a matter that some people (myself included) would like to see them be a bigger part of the game then they seem to be so far.

But does anyone else miss when a game was complete when it was first released?

There has never been a miniature game that was complete really. Even in the early days of 40k, the game was never really complete.

So this idea of FFG is rushing Armada out the door is simply not true. The core set makes a completely playable game in every way that matters.

Honestly the whole idea that fighters need to be 'fixed' is largely a matter of opinion. The game works fine without them, it's just a matter that some people (myself included) would like to see them be a bigger part of the game then they seem to be so far.

I completely agree. I really think you will see more squadrons when wave 2 hits.

I do think the Rebels should be able to field all fighters because that's they way they operate. rebs jump in hit and run and jump out. Or Ties are bought as part of their mothership So points for a VSD would be VSD+ 3 TIEs =??? and they have to launch from the VSD on turn 1. I know that is almost like rewriting the rules but It would feel more like star wars. My 2 cents as an old fogey, now get off my lawn.

Joe

If you want all fighters, FFG already has a game for that. The TIEs are all launched on Round 0 (or before), so why wait until Round 1?

Post... Err... Post post, realized this may be a better location for this -

What about merging the ship and squadron phase entirely? All other rules would remain the same. Activate one ship or two squadrons. Squadrons require Rogue or Command to move and shoot in one activation.

Gives squadrons the one value they are missing, activations, and they're already point capped to prevent spam.

I respect your opinion but I can't imagine ffg is going to errata and change the structure of a game turn which also would invalidate the RRG in so many areas due to when squadron commands take effect and so on.

My guess, if they see a problem at all, would be to:

A). Adjust tournament rules regarding points granted when squadrons are still on the table;

B). Wave 3 ships will contain upgrade cards to increase the effectiveness of the squadron command range, attacking and/or defensive squadron buffs, ways to increase total squadrons on the table without violating the 1/3 points rule ie get 2 squadrons at no cost to total deployment, etc

My suggested change has zero impact on Command structure. You either activate the squadrons with a command or you don't, they still only get one activation a turn. Activating w a command gives you the benefit of more than 2 per activation, move plus attack, and upgrades tied to the command. Elaborate on what you believe this change would invalidate.

Edit: it would make 1-2 value ships useless for Squad command sans upgrades. Which effectively changes nothing. Edit edit: well not useless, same benefit as now, ship activation w squad activation coupled together instead of separate, so exactly the same.

Post... Err... Post post, realized this may be a better location for this -

What about merging the ship and squadron phase entirely? All other rules would remain the same. Activate one ship or two squadrons. Squadrons require Rogue or Command to move and shoot in one activation.

Gives squadrons the one value they are missing, activations, and they're already point capped to prevent spam.

I respect your opinion but I can't imagine ffg is going to errata and change the structure of a game turn which also would invalidate the RRG in so many areas due to when squadron commands take effect and so on.

My guess, if they see a problem at all, would be to:

A). Adjust tournament rules regarding points granted when squadrons are still on the table;

B). Wave 3 ships will contain upgrade cards to increase the effectiveness of the squadron command range, attacking and/or defensive squadron buffs, ways to increase total squadrons on the table without violating the 1/3 points rule ie get 2 squadrons at no cost to total deployment, etc

Edit: it would make 1-2 value ships useless for Squad command sans upgrades. Which effectively changes nothing. Edit edit: well not useless, same benefit as now, ship activation w squad activation coupled together instead of separate, so exactly the same.

But 1 to 2 squadron value ships have tons of uses. If this is going to make 2 value ships useless, we'll there goes Yavaris.

The game does not yet have large ships. So far the Imperial Star Destroyer 1 has a command value of 4, which is 5 with Expanded Hanger Bay and 6 with a token. That is a lot of squadrons that can maintain speed with a ship that size to be activated. That will change the squadron game.

In that change ships like the GSD and the MC30 are not quite as effective at boxing it in. 7 to 9 damage on that front arc is rather deadly when adding in XI7 Turbolasers.

There does not need to be a rules change until at least the first regional after wave 2. By then we can effectively see what the game will look like

Basically with lyra (adding ofc that we could change tournie rules WELL before core game mechanics)

Squadrons have some advantages that ships basically can't touch. The two I've noticed the most:

1. those terrifying GSDs are wimpier than tie bombers to squadrons. Squadrons will always be the greatest threat to squadrons

2. Activation piggy-back. Because the Squadron command is resolved during the same activation as the ship, you get to move a lot of models before the enemy gets a chance to react. Need something dead before it activates? Well, you won't get more dice than through some bombers!

There are other things (such as obstruction rules, great for hiding bombers in) but those I feel are the most significant; least appreciated

"But 1 to 2 squadron value ships have tons of uses. If this is going to make 2 value ships useless, we'll there goes

My original statement is useless was based on comparing activating two squads with an actcation vs one-two squads with a command in an effort to try and decipher the ambiguous 'changes all the things' reply I received without any examples to back up the statement itself. 1-2 activations at the cost of a command vs 2 activations doesn't compare favorably.

Thus my edits, because the real comparison is 2 activations of move or attack vs. 1-2 activations of move plus shoot plus upgrades plus the combined arms of 1 ship plus 1-2 squadrons in one activation.

Which self balances just fine. So it's all good and I'm still wondering what drastic rules changes the other bloke sees. I may very well be missing something drastic but I don't see it.

But does anyone else miss when a game was complete when it was first released?

There has never been a miniature game that was complete really. Even in the early days of 40k, the game was never really complete.

So this idea of FFG is rushing Armada out the door is simply not true. The core set makes a completely playable game in every way that matters.

Honestly the whole idea that fighters need to be 'fixed' is largely a matter of opinion. The game works fine without them, it's just a matter that some people (myself included) would like to see them be a bigger part of the game then they seem to be so far.

40K has always had rules for everything even if they didn't have minis for a thing. And this is not 40K is closer to Space Hulk. I'm not saying FFG is rushing anything. It's simply where the market is these days. If you want a complete game you have to look over to family games like King of Tokyo, etc. I know Avalon Hill has been dead for longer than some Armada players have been alive. And that Sid Meyer was inspired by the Avalon Hill game not the other way around. A game should always be judged on where it is not what is coming next year. I can't judge Robotech Tactics based on Wave 2 that doesn't exist yet.

I don't want an all fighters game. But X-wings operate independently of thier carrier and TIEs do not and it would be nice if that was possible. I think it'd be a fun fluff-accurate house rule / scenario. I'd love for FFG to come out with a scenario pack. The objectives is nice nod in that direction.

...

The Core Set was absolutely not a complete game by itself. You could go through the motions but there was very little game to actually be had from that product alone.

That's great that your group plays like that, but actual fleet construction is very clear on the matter. If FFG intended that you must run Squadrons, they would have the rules say that. They may alter those rules at a later time, but as presented they unequivocally do not in any way force you to take Squadrons. As such unless you think FFG is completely unaware of what thier rules say you can not conclude that it is FFGs intent that Fleets include Squadrons. If it were the rules would say as such, and until they do you can not assert that is FFGS intent (given that the rules are clear on the subject).

Post... Err... Post post, realized this may be a better location for this -

What about merging the ship and squadron phase entirely? All other rules would remain the same. Activate one ship or two squadrons. Squadrons require Rogue or Command to move and shoot in one activation.

Gives squadrons the one value they are missing, activations, and they're already point capped to prevent spam.

I respect your opinion but I can't imagine ffg is going to errata and change the structure of a game turn which also would invalidate the RRG in so many areas due to when squadron commands take effect and so on.

My guess, if they see a problem at all, would be to:

A). Adjust tournament rules regarding points granted when squadrons are still on the table;

B). Wave 3 ships will contain upgrade cards to increase the effectiveness of the squadron command range, attacking and/or defensive squadron buffs, ways to increase total squadrons on the table without violating the 1/3 points rule ie get 2 squadrons at no cost to total deployment, etc

My suggested change has zero impact on Command structure. You either activate the squadrons with a command or you don't, they still only get one activation a turn. Activating w a command gives you the benefit of more than 2 per activation, move plus attack, and upgrades tied to the command. Elaborate on what you believe this change would invalidate.

Edit: it would make 1-2 value ships useless for Squad command sans upgrades. Which effectively changes nothing. Edit edit: well not useless, same benefit as now, ship activation w squad activation coupled together instead of separate, so exactly the same.

Post... Err... Post post, realized this may be a better location for this -

What about merging the ship and squadron phase entirely? All other rules would remain the same. Activate one ship or two squadrons. Squadrons require Rogue or Command to move and shoot in one activation.

Gives squadrons the one value they are missing, activations, and they're already point capped to prevent spam.

I respect your opinion but I can't imagine ffg is going to errata and change the structure of a game turn which also would invalidate the RRG in so many areas due to when squadron commands take effect and so on.

My guess, if they see a problem at all, would be to:

A). Adjust tournament rules regarding points granted when squadrons are still on the table;

B). Wave 3 ships will contain upgrade cards to increase the effectiveness of the squadron command range, attacking and/or defensive squadron buffs, ways to increase total squadrons on the table without violating the 1/3 points rule ie get 2 squadrons at no cost to total deployment, etc

My suggested change has zero impact on Command structure. You either activate the squadrons with a command or you don't, they still only get one activation a turn. Activating w a command gives you the benefit of more than 2 per activation and upgrades tied to the command. Elaborate on what you believe this change would invalidate.

Edit: it would make 1-2 value ships useless for Squad command sans upgrades. Which effectively changes nothing. Edit edit: well not useless, same benefit as now, ship activation w squad activation coupled together instead of separate, so exactly the same.

Just so we are clear: you stated to merge 2 phases, the squadron and ship phases. This alone changes significantly how the game would played.

This would favor which ever side can put more squadrons on the table by giving that side (imperial since ties are 8 points) more activations. In addition, such a change would invalidate the turn structure within the RRG, something I can't imagine ffg would be willing to do. Then of course the balance of allowing squadrons that aren't activated by squadron command the ability to fire before a ship could normally move away in the current turn structure because ship phase occurs prior to squadron phase and you're looking at a significantly altered game.

And that has zero to do with the rules of the game. Mon Mothma is a Head of State not a naval commander, does your house rules include provisions against her commanding a Fleet?

The Core Set was absolutely not a complete game by itself.

Exactly what part of the game is missing from the core set, other then the number of points you can use?

You have fighters, you have ships, you have objectives... You in fact have a complete game. It may be limited in scope, but that doesn't make it incomplete.

The Core Set was absolutely not a complete game by itself.

Exactly what part of the game is missing from the core set, other then the number of points you can use?You have fighters, you have ships, you have objectives... You in fact have a complete game. It may be limited in scope, but that doesn't make it incomplete.

The fact that the VSD can not do anything to force an engagement with the Rebel ships, and that the Rebel ships can't do anything to a VSD that doesn't want to die. The result is that neither side does much of anything except maybe kill some Squadrons. That is not at all indicative of how Armada actually plays, you may be going through the same motions, but you certainly are not playing the same game. As such I can not call the Armada Core Set a complete product, nor is it intended as such. It, at best is a tutorial.