As a fan of the assymetric dial, and having mentioned it long ago, I'd be happy if I found out the devs listened to that. ;P

The Question - Did FFG listen to Endless rants about PWT or turrets in general?

My Answer -

In interviews Alex Davies was quoted as saying they do read the forums on occasion and consider ideas and thoughts of players.

However I would also add there are players on here who attempt to scream the loudest to try to get their way in the false thinking they will influence the game designers.

I very much doubt that FGD or others creating a thread every other day complaining about turrets, and in almost every reply they post also mentioning "evil" turrets that they are actually influencing the game designers in the way they intend.

The board become a overwhelming cesspool of negativity because of all the complain threads by a handful of people in the last 6 months or so. Its OBVIOUS that all the negativity DID NOT INFLUENCE the game designers to cave in to their demands in nerfing turrets into oblivion.

I am not a game designer of X wing, but in my experience people who throw tantrums, yell and scream get shut out of the design process as not being constructive.

2.) My opinion is often negative. That does not make it untrue.

3.) I state my negative opinion often. That doesn't make it untrue either.

4.) There seems to be this annoying hyper politeness that's rampant in the X-Wing community. Players are too reluctant to call judges over when they think they've been wronged, players will complain about certain ships being OP but never to the face of a player who mains the ship. Hell, it's so hyper polite that any tiny speck of complaining must immediately be opposed at all costs, and thus people with legitimate complaints who perhaps state them often or with some hyperbole have their ideas immediately discarded and the current thing ruining the game lingers.

I would love to be able to add multiple Mods to Firesprays, Shuttles, YTs. Pretty much any large ship. Honestly the larger ships should have more room for modifications and it would add a great level of variability to gameplay options.

I don't have the source handy, but I recall reading somewhere that the devs already admitted they should have done that with the Falcon to begin with. I believe their main excuse was that they didn't realize at the time that a player would actually buy and fly two Falcons at the same time.

I recall something similar but those designers are long gone. That was the golden age of X-Wing before anyone thought it was conceivable to sink 50+ points into a single ship.

They've said the inverse about the HWK.

I don't think that the punishing one is entirely something taken from the forums as much as it is a natural progression of an expandable game. Since Scum and Villiany were mostly the bounty hunters from Empire Strikes Back it makes sense to include all the bounty hunter ships that were added in the Special Edition edits. The forum wasn't exactly asking for the Mist Hunter and we also got that. However with those two ships being the only ones not included yet of course those would be the next ships.

As for the turret and title well S&V were the only faction that did not have a PWT so sure give it a PWT. However 3 firepower PWTs are already dominating the meta while 2 firepower PWTs are sort of meh and forgotten about. So there had to be some compromise between 2 and 3 firepower thus the title and making it a whopping 12 points to put Dengar just under a point from Han seems like the most logical thing to do. I would dar say that all competitive builds that use the Jumpmaster as a Point fortress PWT will be including the title as much as all competitive lists with YT-2400 will be using the outrider title.

But as you know now all the source material of the original trilogy episodes 4, 5, & 6 has been thoroughly exhausted to include the special edition ships. Cloudcars and Snowspeeders are atmospheric vehicles and planetbound so those don't count because they can't fly in space. Now FFG has to go beyond the OT and even past the EU (because fact it some of those ships are just dumb looking) on to other material that shares the same franchise. So now we are seeing Rebel stuff added into the mix along with ships that came from early star wars games.

Doesn't Dengar with Punishing One title seem a little to costly in comparison to Han Solo? For one point more, Han gets 4 extra HPs and most likely a better dial. I suppose the real comparison has to be between Dengar and Dash. With the Outrider title and HLC that equals 12 points also. But if we do a closer comparison of Outrider title with Mangler canon, it's 3 points cheaper than Punishing One title. I think the developers may of been to conservative again with the costing of the title.

Doesn't Dengar with Punishing One title seem a little to costly in comparison to Han Solo? For one point more, Han gets 4 extra HPs and most likely a better dial. I suppose the real comparison has to be between Dengar and Dash. With the Outrider title and HLC that equals 12 points also. But if we do a closer comparison of Outrider title with Mangler canon, it's 3 points cheaper than Punishing One title. I think the developers may of been to conservative again with the costing of the title.

White 2-segnor, and that's only what we know so far.

Any comparison between the Punishing One and other PWTs also depends heavily on the crew.

Decimator has Ysanne and Rebel Captive, Falcon has c-3p0 and r2-d2, while wave 8 has 4 unspoiled crew and 2 unspoiled salvaged astromechs.

It is highly unlikely we'll get another han clone when they've already given dengar the means to match him in the unavoidable dicefest (dengar's ability + already existing ways to modify both shots)

Stack recon and/or stims with predator lone wolf/r4 aggro

Pick your favorite

Outmaneuver if you're just that cool

Any comparison between the Punishing One and other PWTs also depends heavily on the crew.

Decimator has Ysanne and Rebel Captive, Falcon has c-3p0 and r2-d2, while wave 8 has 4 unspoiled crew and 2 unspoiled salvaged astromechs.

It also has 2 agility, now while 2 agility is nothing to say praises about it is still it is more than the Falcon and Decimator.

2.) My opinion is often hyperbolic

That's better.

Honestly, I don't think the title is necessarily a sign of them listening. Dengar's ability, I think, is a better sign.

1.) They put an end to the blatantly game ruining phantom. Do you think if there was no one at all who complained about it and the player base was composed entirely of the people with bad taste who were 'hunky dory' with the Phantom hyper dominating the meta they would have nerfed it?

The issue I have with statements like these is that there's an implied equivalency that is wrong. Yes, Wave 4 and 5 was turret and Phantom dominant. Blatantly game ruining is far too dramatic. If I disagree with the drama, I'm not dismissing the reality of the meta, only the impact.

2.) My opinion is often negative. That does not make it untrue.

3.) I state my negative opinion often. That doesn't make it untrue either.

It also doesn't make your opinion is true to the magnitude you claim it is. It also means that your opinion is true to the best of your knowledge, which may or may not be founded on all the available information. All people have a tendency to dismiss information that disagrees with their world view, and defend information that's sketchy at best, and provably false at worst, if it agrees with their worldview.

4.) There seems to be this annoying hyper politeness that's rampant in the X-Wing community. Players are too reluctant to call judges over when they think they've been wronged, players will complain about certain ships being OP but never to the face of a player who mains the ship. Hell, it's so hyper polite that any tiny speck of complaining must immediately be opposed at all costs, and thus people with legitimate complaints who perhaps state them often or with some hyperbole have their ideas immediately discarded and the current thing ruining the game lingers.

I don't get any hyper politeness vibe from these forums. General courtesy for the most part, but that's hardly a bad thing.

Maybe people just challenge your (negative) opinions because they disagree with you, and it's not personal.

They are a game company. They sell little toy ships to kids. Our opinions are not a factor. They SAY they are, but dollars are the only factor. They make ships that will sell...and we will buy everything eventually. We are not populous or discerning enough for them to wisely cater to our bat-sith demands.

They are a game company. They sell little toy ships to kids. Our opinions are not a factor. They SAY they are, but dollars are the only factor. They make ships that will sell...and we will buy everything eventually. We are not populous or discerning enough for them to wisely cater to our bat-sith demands.

They do more thann sell little toy ships, they also sell a game. IMO their business model seems centered around selling the game, rather than the ships themselves.

A person that is only interested in the ships woll buy the ones he wants. A person who is interested in the game will buy (often in multiples) the ships he wants plus the ships he doesn't but contain the cards he wants (why put different cards in different packs otherwise?). How many people have bought the Defeder for liking it vs. just wanting Predator I wonder...

As such, the health of the game is probably important to them.

Even if the Punishing one came with the same problems that the Falcon has, the wave the Punishing One comes with also brings new tools to deal with these 3 attack PWTs.

Ordnance action economy fixes, instacrit missiles, tractor beams (whatever it does), more conner nets, Crack Shot, range 3 Twin Laser Turret... All those will make turret fortresses' lives much harder.

They are a game company. They sell little toy ships to kids. Our opinions are not a factor. They SAY they are, but dollars are the only factor. They make ships that will sell...and we will buy everything eventually. We are not populous or discerning enough for them to wisely cater to our bat-sith demands.

It doesn't matter much if the same 5-6 people here cry about turrets in every single thread on this forum.

Really it's quite tiring to read any thread and hear the same complaints about turrets over and over again. Ffg knows, there's no need to turn every thread into the same old rant.

They are a game company. They sell little toy ships to kids. Our opinions are not a factor. They SAY they are, but dollars are the only factor. They make ships that will sell...and we will buy everything eventually. We are not populous or discerning enough for them to wisely cater to our bat-sith demands.

People should realize that there is an internal forum where ffg discusses upcoming changes to the game with certain players.

It doesn't matter much if the same 5-6 people here cry about turrets in every single thread on this forum.

Really it's quite tiring to read any thread and hear the same complaints about turrets over and over again. Ffg knows, there's no need to turn every thread into the same old rant.

There's also no need to try to shut down every complaint anyone has about FFG's game balance decisions.

1.) They put an end to the blatantly game ruining phantom. Do you think if there was no one at all who complained about it and the player base was composed entirely of the people with bad taste who were 'hunky dory' with the Phantom hyper dominating the meta they would have nerfed it?

The issue I have with statements like these is that there's an implied equivalency that is wrong. Yes, Wave 4 and 5 was turret and Phantom dominant. Blatantly game ruining is far too dramatic. If I disagree with the drama, I'm not dismissing the reality of the meta, only the impact.

2.) My opinion is often negative. That does not make it untrue.3.) I state my negative opinion often. That doesn't make it untrue either.

It also doesn't make your opinion is true to the magnitude you claim it is. It also means that your opinion is true to the best of your knowledge, which may or may not be founded on all the available information. All people have a tendency to dismiss information that disagrees with their world view, and defend information that's sketchy at best, and provably false at worst, if it agrees with their worldview.

4.) There seems to be this annoying hyper politeness that's rampant in the X-Wing community. Players are too reluctant to call judges over when they think they've been wronged, players will complain about certain ships being OP but never to the face of a player who mains the ship. Hell, it's so hyper polite that any tiny speck of complaining must immediately be opposed at all costs, and thus people with legitimate complaints who perhaps state them often or with some hyperbole have their ideas immediately discarded and the current thing ruining the game lingers.

I don't get any hyper politeness vibe from these forums. General courtesy for the most part, but that's hardly a bad thing.Maybe people just challenge your (negative) opinions because they disagree with you, and it's not personal.

I've played against the pre-nerf phantom numerous times, and flew the 86 double phantom list a few times. Whenever I'd face the things I'd always lose no matter what unless I flew a specific hard counter list or my opponent landed one it on an asteroid. I'd end up in situations where I had 6 TIE Fighters against a single Phantom and I'd be losing. And when I flew 86 double Phantom I would auto-win against everything that wasn't a turret, and when I faced a turret I'd pretty much autolose. Besides for the troll factor of rolling up to the side of a Firespray with my omniscient decloak shenanigans and dropping 5 hits on it because my opponent had no way to predict where I was going to choose to go, it was blatantly game ruining.

I understand that people disagree with me, but there seems to be this dismissal of complaints because they're negative and stated often even though they are valid and that's what I'm addressing.

Even if the Punishing one came with the same problems that the Falcon has, the wave the Punishing One comes with also brings new tools to deal with these 3 attack PWTs.

Ordnance action economy fixes, instacrit missiles, tractor beams (whatever it does), more conner nets, Crack Shot, range 3 Twin Laser Turret... All those will make turret fortresses' lives much harder.

not really

thing with the Han/Cheri brand of PWT is that they don't really care about any one thing more than any other ship type in the game. They share the same weaknesses as other ships (large base, low agility) with a fail-proof benefit. thanks to m.o.v, their main weakness (Cost) turns into an advantage.

the Han/Cheri brand only care more about landing on asteroids relative to Dash (because they both can't shoot, but dash can action off of it). Giving zero ***** about their facing heavily at any range otherwise mitigates/trivializes any issue when losing their mobility (whether through obstructions, stress, or blocks or conner net)

the only actual PWT counter to be released is thrusters

the low agility counters (which affect all low agi, not just Pwts) such as TLT spam and Cluster missile buffs (stim N'dru, Redline FCS) might make some impact

conner net does things to them (thank rngesus for 2 ion tokens), but sadly not as much as any other ship in the game. They will murder soonts, corran, and set up murders on dash etc. basically anything that isn't a PWT, since PWTs don't care about facing (or range; Dash does ) and have tons of action step independent tech (predator, gunner, isanne/c3po, pilot abilities) plus tons of health to soak the 1 damage, to give the least of a **** possible. The only returns you're getting off of conner is if you manage to ionize a fattie off the table or onto an asteroid, though neither option is as likely as with non-pwt ships because, again, fatties don't care about their facing when it comes to generating shots. Conners do affect them, just the least out of all possible ships, and you'll need to use them to bring arcs to bear and spam dice at them (the only way to beat them)

crack shot does very little to nothing against PWTs. Decimators don't give a ****, Han will still proc c3po if you're shooting him more than once a round unless everything has outmaneuver and you're never going to one-shot him. Unless using crackshot to polish one off, it's a wash against PWTs and far more meaningful against the likes of soonts/corran. Adv Homing missiles simply don't deal enough damage and you have to get lucky with crits to have any meaningful kind of impact of 3 points, since the shields will still be there when you inevitably have to roll dice against them.

While not OP, the Han/Cheri large PWT is just not good for the game as it dumbs it down to a very sad degree. This is because they do have a counter (apart from thrusters), it's just that the counter is farting dice at them until they fall down while deriving little to no benefit from outmaneuvering them (they can still shoot you).

The yt-2400/K-wing PWT is just dandy, because the 2-dice PWT is relatively useless and the ships must use other means (Cannon/bombs) to have any sort of relevant impact in the game.

The Punishing One strikes, so far, a tenuous balance between a horrible mechanic and the lack of means to truly abuse it. The 3-dice is a warning sign, but the stat-line on the pogostick, barrel-roll on the action bar (yt-2400 esque ), unique upgrade combinations (thing could be a convincing torpedo carrier, of all things ) and Dengar's in-arc ability let me retain my faith in ffg. So long as they do not release action-independent defensive tech beyond those available (conditional lone-wolf, oneshot + stress stim), the pogostick could be a very welcome addition to the game, PWT or no.

Dengar's also very nifty because his ability and gunner are very much at odds, which only further stresses the importance of his ability at the determent to common PWT tech.

I do think Kallus, Scourge, and the tracer missile will add new ways to fight the big ships. Just not outright knock them out the meta. Which is how the meta should evolve.

Every time the topic turns to fat turrets, I find myself wishing that either Goomba or Fickle would switch their avatars. Skim a post, scroll on, realize later when someone quotes it that oh, that was a Goomba post, not Fickle.

the low agility counters (which affect all low agi, not just Pwts)

I do think Kallus, Scourge, and the tracer missile will add new ways to fight the big ships. Just not outright knock them out the meta. Which is how the meta should evolve.

the low agility counters (which affect all low agi, not just Pwts)

To be fair, who gives a toss about countering low-agility ships that aren't PWTs (OK, and B-Wings, sorta

also Y-wings

K-wings

Punishers

YV-666s

the misthunter...

YT-1300s and VT-49s excluded, a lot of interesting ships are low agi

Every time the topic turns to fat turrets, I find myself wishing that either Goomba or Fickle would switch their avatars. Skim a post, scroll on, realize later when someone quotes it that oh, that was a Goomba post, not Fickle.

Every time the topic turns to fat turrets, I find myself wishing that either Goomba or Fickle would switch their avatars. Skim a post, scroll on, realize later when someone quotes it that oh, that was a Goomba post, not Fickle.

I heard that the X Wing avatars are gone now so I haven't bothered to try to change it to anything else for fear of losing it. I'd switch it to Alpha Squadron if I could.

I wanted to be an A-wing