What!? Wave 1,2,3 where by far the most balanced and normal of all the waves. It was wave 4 and 5 that really made the meta about fat turrets.

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. Any design and development team, on a brand-new game, is going to take a while to find their feet. But are you serious?

Wave 1: TIE Advanced is underpowered by 4-5 points. X-wing is underpowered by 1-2 points (although this is less of an issue while there are no other ships with 3 Attack).

Wave 2: Introduces the first primary weapon turret (which will cause some problems later). TIE Interceptors are too fragile. A-wings are underpowered by 2 points.

Wave 3: The B-wing smothers the X-wing. The HWK will prove too fragile to function well as a support ship, and 1 Attack means it can't function on offense without an upgrade. The Shuttle's dial is so bad it will be overlooked by most players for months. TIE Bomber is fine overall, but has few good options for ordnance, and Major Rhymer is laughably overpriced.

EDIT: My point isn't that Waves 1-3 were terrible and Waves 4+ are great. (As Teh HOBO says, overall it's a fun and balanced game, certainly when compared to most of its competitors.) But anyone who says that Waves 1-3 are the halcyon days where everything was fine and dandy... let's say that person has a very selective memory.

Listen to Vorpal, he's a smart guy. There are strange choices in each wave, to be sure, but I don't find the "turret meta" as big a bummer as specifically the 2 ship meta. Even so, I have a great time with the game. But, as others have said:

TIE Advanced was quite simply overpriced out of the gate. Lack of options helped it early on. And that's the thing, you have to answer these questions in the mindset of the time a wave was released. Ordnance was DOA until later options appeared. The X-wing was great in Wave 2, and even did well enough in Wave 1 due to it being the only ship with 3 attack but couldn't often beat TIE Swarms. Wave 2 drops. The differing stats on the Falcon are ridiculous and should never have gotten printed. Interceptors are good but slightly too fragile. Wave 3, the HWK was basically DOA in our local meta, the bomber not far behind it, due to the weaknesses of its generics and the absurd tax on its uniques. And the B-wing was simply much better than the X-wing for only one more point. The X-wing still saw play and in fact was included in Paul's 2013 World Champion list, but its weaknesses became quite apparent. Then Wave 4. Not perfect, but I think the overcosted Defenders and E-wings are more grievous than the power of the Phantom. And Corran Horn would be incredibly broken at less than 35 points, and he still sees regular, successful play. Also Predator, one of the best EPTs next to Push. Wave 5 was a bummer, I agree there, as the turret meta was overly rampant, but now in Wave 6 and soon Wave 7, other builds are possible. Turrets are not going away. All we can do is adapt. And it doesn't even bother me all that much. And I don't play fat turrets. I win more often with swarmy lists like 4 Y-wings with BTL.

Beyond that, there are always cards that are weaker than others. That will always be the case.

Look, I love X Wing, and for the most part it is fairly balanced. And, with currently released products in a standard 100 point match, it is very hard to get more than 4 primary weapon attack dice, much less 5+ agility dice. However, with wave 8 coming, it looks like it is possible to get to 7 attack dice and 7 evade dice. How?

SEVEN ATTACK DICE

Ghost (4)

Expose (+1) - The card is fuzzy but it looks like it has an EPT's and/astromech slot for R2d6

Range 1 (+1)

Jan Or's ability (+1)

SEVEN EVADE DICE

Any Star viper (Guri is a great choice) (3)

Cloaked with new Cloaking Device (+2)

Range 3 (+1)

Obstructed (+1)

With Guri this also means you have a Focus AND Evade token......

No EPT on Ghost is just the first thing. Then the Ghost is very possibly an overpriced brick to maneuver, and you can achieve similar things with other combinations too (adv.Torps plus Ors for example). And those are pretty bad squads honestly!

Guri example is complete hystery on your part too, because you assume he is at both range 1 and 3 at the same time... And then someone like Soontir with Stealth device and Autothrusters at Range 3 obstructed with an evade token and two focuses exists for a long time now and is probably even more difficult to hit! And you don't complain?

Power creep? Complete nonsense!

I'll withhold judgement (and my tongue) until Wave 8 is on my table and been played. Way too much speculation on builds and abilities to draw accurate conclusions. I agree that being able to throw 7 or 8 dice seems outrageous but being able to obtain and maintain the formations needed for that condition to occur is another matter entirely. You maybe able to pull it off once or twice against newer players but after that it becomes the "Fools Mate" in chess: an interesting corner case.

and we can get to like 10 defense dice

starviper + cloak + stealth + range 3 + obstruction+ bodyguard + being shot at by Zuckess

You will still get hit though...

Really, this game needs to just be rebalanced. Not add more ships! Make the existing ships work!

Tie defenders aint gonna be anything STILL. Imp firesprays yeah right.

xwings, THIS GAME IS CALLED XWING. WHO STILL PLAYS XWING COMPETITIVELY.

Really, this game needs to just be rebalanced. Not add more ships! Make the existing ships work!

Tie defenders aint gonna be anything STILL. Imp firesprays yeah right.

xwings, THIS GAME IS CALLED XWING. WHO STILL PLAYS XWING COMPETITIVELY.

xwings, THIS GAME IS CALLED XWING. WHO STILL PLAYS XWING COMPETITIVELY.

It's definitely true that the Force Awakens ships will not include an X-Wing and will not include any sort of fix for existing X-Wings.

*firm nod*

You know what amuses me more than A Wings getting 7 dice sometimes? Its A wings getting six dice all the time

A Wing 2

Opportunist +1

A Wing Test pilot

Expose +1

Jan Ors +1

Range 1 +1

Six dice fairly consistently, especially if you also run with Wes. A Wings confirmed still OP. Run with tycho and EI so you can do it every turn. In fact...

Tycho Celchu

-A Wing Test Pilot

-Expose

-Opportunist

-Experimental Interface

-Refit

-35 pts

Wes Janson

-VI

-R3-A2

-32 pts

Jan Ors

-Ion Cannon Turret

-Recon Specialist

-33 pts

Every turn get token stripped, stressed, hit with a 6AD attack and Ion'd. Have nice day.

Look, I love X Wing, and for the most part it is fairly balanced. And, with currently released products in a standard 100 point match, it is very hard to get more than 4 primary weapon attack dice, much less 5+ agility dice. However, with wave 8 coming, it looks like it is possible to get to 7 attack dice and 7 evade dice. How?

SEVEN ATTACK DICE

Ghost (4)

Expose (+1) - The card is fuzzy but it looks like it has an EPT's and/astromech slot for R2d6

Range 1 (+1)

Jan Or's ability (+1)

SEVEN EVADE DICE

Any Star viper (Guri is a great choice) (3)

Cloaked with new Cloaking Device (+2)

Range 3 (+1)

Obstructed (+1)

With Guri this also means you have a Focus AND Evade token......

I've done 6 dice with Farlabder+HLC+Opportunist+Jans. Actually it was too many dice on one ship. Rookie players wanted to cry and go home, but it wasn't that hard for experienced players to shut down. It is a pretty easy build to put together and I almost nexer see it.

Imagine for a moment:

Imperial Aces drops. Instead of Targeting Computer, it had AutoThrusters.

Wave 4 hits, and the Defender and E-Wing both had an across the board 2 point reduction.

We'd still see 2 ship builds winning a ton of tournaments, as the MOV kind of demands it. But given these small tweaks, I think we'd see a bigger diversity of list building than today. Which doesn't mean things are in bad shape- just that there's some room for improvement. And I've seen a lot of improvement over the years.

I'm really confident that something in the next 2 waves (Wave 8 and Wave Movie) will revitalize at least 1 current ship.

I will say why we complained about the lack of diversity the top lists were not the standard Dash Outrider list. I mean who uses Anti-pursuit Lasers? The 2015 X-wing Nationals Champion that's who

Sure the meta tend to form lists into archtypes but there is plenty of variance within those lists. Sort of a microdiversity if you may call it.

xwings, THIS GAME IS CALLED XWING. WHO STILL PLAYS XWING COMPETITIVELY.

It's definitely true that the Force Awakens ships will not include an X-Wing and will not include any sort of fix for existing X-Wings.

*firm nod*

AND it is also absolutely positively confirmed that E7 goodies will suck, and are not going to improve ships like the Y-Wing that rejoiced after MOST WANTED.

Go homes kiddies... the funs is gone-gone here at crappy ole FFG.

40k is lookins fer peoples.

:lol:

I will say why we complained about the lack of diversity the top lists were not the standard Dash Outrider list. I mean who uses Anti-pursuit Lasers? The 2015 X-wing Nationals Champion that's who

Sure the meta tend to form lists into archtypes but there is plenty of variance within those lists. Sort of a microdiversity if you may call it.

For many, ships are the only source of diversity. Even though squads with the same ships can end up playing very differently.

My big problem with this is the Meta: Here they are trying to break it from large ship builds and they give a 360 Primary Weapon and 4 attack. With no weakness. Even the phantom has 4 attack, but it must uncloak to fire, and cannot be hit due to being a glass cannon. Plus it must use the primary firing arc.

This does not have any weakness at all. More ring around the rosie and more 360 turrets that keep the game boring and easy mode. Why even both to ever point at the enemy. All those people that said auto thrusters was the way to beat turrets. Welcome to your 4 dice that now beat autothrusters.

Shesh!!!

And then someone like Soontir with Stealth device and Autothrusters at Range 3 obstructed with an evade token and two focuses

Aaah, I love Soontir!

With Guri this also means you have a Focus AND Evade token......

Also if youre at range 3, it means youre not at range 1, where Guri would get the focus token

My big problem with this is the Meta: Here they are trying to break it from large ship builds and they give a 360 Primary Weapon and 4 attack. With no weakness. Even the phantom has 4 attack, but it must uncloak to fire, and cannot be hit due to being a glass cannon. Plus it must use the primary firing arc.

This does not have any weakness at all. More ring around the rosie and more 360 turrets that keep the game boring and easy mode. Why even both to ever point at the enemy. All those people that said auto thrusters was the way to beat turrets. Welcome to your 4 dice that now beat autothrusters.

Shesh!!!

You do realize that the Ghost doesn't have a turret primary. Heck, it doesn't even have a rear arc unless you spend a ships worth of points. And so far, it has plenty of weaknesses. No agility keeps them from having the big boogy man of Rebel upgrades. Granted, some of the weaknesses are sure to be taken care of by the ton of crew they are getting.

As for the Punishing One, keep in mind it has less health than a Firespray. Without the Evade action. And at least their big pilot encourages dogfighting.

More ring around the rosie and more 360 turrets that keep the game boring and easy mode.

The Ghost doesn't have a primary turret, so you have to point it at the ship you want to shoot. It can take a turret upgrade, but how much good that will be is debatable at this time.

The other wave 8 ship with a turret only has a primary of 2 attack unless you spend a fair amount on the title to get it to 3. So it is at best on par with the YTs and VTs.

Yup... Only 40 Points. For a Ship with admittedly high hit points, but no agility. Four attack dice, but FRONT ARC ONLY. Likely around 20 points to add its auxiliary arc, and another 4-6 (or more, depending on Dorsal Turret), to add that follow up turret attack. Did I mention that 20 point extra ship can't even be used if you want your rear arc and turret shot?

Yeah... Seems busted. Let me get my umbrella. Oh, wait. No it doesn't.

Even if we are looking at 35 for the base, it is hardly scary.

Estimating the Phantom's price, I'd peg Sabine around 19 (Compared to an Alpha Squadron Pilot, the Attack shuttle has comparable offense and durability but is noticeably less mobile, and nobody runs Alpha Squadrons. Unless Sabine has a killer Pilot ability, of course), but we can't be sure of that.

So, Hera+Sabine is 59 points, give or take a point. Super Fat Han is 61 points, Fat Han is 62 points, and Fat Chiraneau is 65 points. The Ghost has yet to take any upgrades. Compared to Kath Scarlet, you're 21(!) points more expensive, have one additional dice in your primary arc, and have 6 additional hull+shields at the cost of 2 agility. I... think that favors the Ghost durability wise, but it's close. Of course we don't know dials at this point (My personal Theory- The Ghost can reach high speeds with a green 4-forward, but turns like a dead sloth). But, at the moment, Hera has no additional

Right, so first off, we take a turret. We don't know much about dorsal turret yet, although judging by the wording of the Phantom title we're going to need to use it because TLT will only get one shot with the title. Let's call Dorsal Turret 6 points for the moment. Now, we want to make the Ghost fat, so we need durability and maneuverability (Especially if I'm right about the Ghost's ability to turn). Add 8 points for Engine upgrade and R2-D2, since C-3P0 won't do anything and I doubt that FFG is dumb enough to give anything that increases a Rebel Pancake's durability beyond what they already have. We're now at about 75 points. We can fit another ship in here (Assuming no other upgrades prove to be mandatory), but Tarn+R7 or a tricked out Green Squadron pilot is not exactly the terror Corran, Soontir, or even Keyan are. Oh, and we haven't given the Ghost any offensive upgrades yet unlike every other Fat ship. So we may have to drop down to Cracken+Wingman or something

I've been running on the assumption the base Phantom pilot is 17 pts. Base cost of Khiraxz - a hull upgrade.

I've been running on the assumption the base Phantom pilot is 17 pts. Base cost of Khiraxz - a hull upgrade.

There isn't really a base Phantom- They're all unique. The cheapest is Sabine, who's PS 3. They also have more upgrade slots than the Kihraxz

I've been running on the assumption the base Phantom pilot is 17 pts. Base cost of Khiraxz - a hull upgrade.

There isn't really a base Phantom- They're all unique. The cheapest is Sabine, who's PS 3. They also have more upgrade slots than the Kihraxz

Looks like the PS3 Phantom Pilot is Zeb