It seems that

is the Armada equivalent of

Going completely squadron free is a bit crazy IMO and I think the winner was fortunate not to run into a serious Rhymer ball or Luke. Unchecked Luke is capable of bringing ships down on his own! Let alone with half a dozen Xwings in tow.

But I think the key point in Armada is to have a clear plan and execute it. Lists aside you need to be able to fly it!

I also think that we have not figured out how to really unlock the potential of fighters. I think they are too slow relative to the cap ships as well, and tethering them to a big ship with a squadron command makes them much less flexible. I would like to see a card that would expand the range of the squadron command quite a bit. right now, your carrier charges in and dies in order to buff your fighters. I would also like to see a carrier that is more a pure carrier.

With the VSD or the whale, you are paying a lot for firepower for something you may be building as a carrier. A variant or a new ship that is under gunned but cheaper, fast, with lots of hanger space is something that might make large fighter groups more viable. just thinking out loud here

From a pure gameplay perspective, you may be right. But at least for Star Destroyers, there is a large thematic drive to keep them relevant to Tie Fighters.

What makes me sad is everyone is blaming the list for the win.

Completely forgetting that it was probably a good list played very well by a good player.

Well done man, and grats on your win.

Going completely squadron free is a bit crazy IMO and I think the winner was fortunate not to run into a serious Rhymer ball or Luke. Unchecked Luke is capable of bringing ships down on his own! Let alone with half a dozen Xwings in tow.

But I think the key point in Armada is to have a clear plan and execute it. Lists aside you need to be able to fly it!

A thought experiment:

An X-Wing throws a single red die against a ship for 13 points, if you use a squadron command.

Enhanced Armament throws a single red die against a ship for 10 points, and you can take a repair command to be mitigating damage received at the same time.

Which is the superior choice if we are trying to kill opposing ships?

Going completely squadron free is a bit crazy IMO and I think the winner was fortunate not to run into a serious Rhymer ball or Luke. Unchecked Luke is capable of bringing ships down on his own! Let alone with half a dozen Xwings in tow.

But I think the key point in Armada is to have a clear plan and execute it. Lists aside you need to be able to fly it!

A thought experiment:

An X-Wing throws a single red die against a ship for 13 points, if you use a squadron command.

Enhanced Armament throws a single red die against a ship for 10 points, and you can take a repair command to be mitigating damage received at the same time.

Which is the superior choice if we are trying to kill opposing ships?

Is a single squadron, that can be tied up always worth the points of a less expensive upgrade that has oh what 4 times the range or so?

Of course there are times it is and is not. The X-Wing and other squadrons allow you to distract and maybe get in some good ole lucky shots.

The issue is not really anti-squadron fighters. The issue is the bombers. So comparing the X-wing to an anti-ship upgrade is not quite right. The upgrade has zero anti-squadron ability whereas the x-wing does. What does allow your comparison to be accurate is that the anti-squadron is useless if most other people don't present a credible anti-ship squadron threat. The real comparison needs to be done with the squadron with the strongest anti-ship threat.

A thought experiment:

An X-Wing throws a single red die against a ship for 13 points, if you use a squadron command.

Enhanced Armament throws a single red die against a ship for 10 points, and you can take a repair command to be mitigating damage received at the same time.

Which is the superior choice if we are trying to kill opposing ships?

Another thought experiment. I have 26 points left in my list with an Assault Frigate MK2B and I have an X-Wing in my list.

I can pay 23 points for enhanced armaments and a X-Wing or I can pay 26 points for 2 more X-Wings. A squadron Command in the second case will add three red dice in my anti-ship attack for that ship on that turn at distance 3+1 (X-Wing range) + the distance at which they currently are from the ship, regardless of which of my facings the target ship is in. On top of that I can also aim at hullzones that aren't in my line of sight and these lines are possibly weaker in terms of shields, forcing the opponent to spend defense tokens before I get to shoot at it. It will also add 12 blue dice to anti-squadron firepower, once again at 3+1 range + the range the X-Wings are currently at, possibly over my medium range for my anti-squadron barrage..

Another other thought experiment : I have an AFMK2 B again, for 10 points I can get Adar Tallon or Enhanced Armament (assuming squadrons are already included in the list). Enhanced Armament only gives me one extra red dice, Adar Tallon gives me a fighter that will move-attack+attack with a smart positioning. If it's an X-Wing, it's 2 red dice per turn over the one for Enhanced Armaments.

Now tell me which is better if you're trying to kill an enemy ship ?

In your thought experiment, the squadron dotation is half assed because you take it in a vacuum without talking about which ship it's going to be used and comparing to a straight up upgrade card that can be fitted on multiple types of ships.

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I said most people in my meta don't know how to play squadrons because most of them don't understand that there are two types of upgrade cards (and you're totally right to look at squadrons as upgrade cards rather than on their own).

You have passive upgrades that just provide bonuses without needing a specific order (ex : Enhanced Armament, H9 Turbolasers, ECM, etc...)

You have active upgrades that require the ship to use specific commands to get the benefit of these cards (ex : Adar Tallon, Expanded Hangars, Sensor Team because you have to spend a dice that you can get "for free" with a CF command, Nav Team, etc...).

Squadrons should be looked at upgrades for ships rather than independent units. But if they are upgrades then squadrons are active upgrades, because when activated they get both the benefit to move and shoot and also be able to shoot prior to the squadron phase. As a passive upgrade, the only interest of a squadron is moving to block other squadrons and perhaps kill them over a couple of turns. It is a decent use but not the best use of squadrons.

On the other hand, a carrier AFMK2 with Expanded Hangar Bays is a fearsome machine due to throwing 4 Rebel Squadrons. Even with Enhanced Armaments, popping the squadron order over multiple turns will double the number of red dice thrown by your flank if you pick X-Wings as activation. And due to Bomber, these red dice work just as fine as a ship red dice thanks to their ability to crit.

____

But when you go squadron heavy, you have to activate them. I played against a very nice Imperial player who threw 7 squadrons on a carrier VSD2 and didn't bother to pop a squadron command before Turn 4, when all but one of his squadrons had been killed by my 4 X-Wings and Wedge because I activated them for 2 consecutive turns (2 and 3) while pumping shots from the whale.

Squadrons don't suck at all. They just have to be played by a ship that is incentivized to pop the squadron command regularly over other commands. Throwing Engine Techs or Engineering team on a carrier ship is useless because both the squadrons and the upgrade card are competing for the type of command the ship wants to activate.

You don't have to spam a command every single turn to be efficient, but if you're paying for points which you will get the benefit of only in a single turn, it's definitely not worth it. Especially for squadrons who cost atleast 8 points a piece up to 21.

____

In conclusion, it's all a matter of playstyle. If you want to play mainly ship to ship combat, you're going to want to maximize the use of your Command Dials to synergize with the upgrades both passive and active.

I think everyone is forgetting an important factor regarding fighters in the tournament scene, and that is the standard will be 400pts not 300pts. 300pts is very limiting, and does not really allow you to maximize a certain build without seriously sacrificing in other areas. With another 100pts the economies of force change, and I think most of you will find that properly utiluzed and supported fighter squadron are lethal in armada. If you don't believe me just see what a well positioned 3 b-wings with Yavaris does to a VSD in a single turn. We also have not factored in all the new goodies and abilities that Wave 2 will bring. This is already shaping up to be a tactically diverse game with just Wave 1. Imagine what happens when we are about to double our options with Wave 2.

So a few quick points:

1. It's hard to evaluate any "I have X points left" discussions without first seeing the rest of the list... the right answer might be re-jiggering things not mentioned in the narrow example, after all.
2. I often see the "over multiple turns" comment with squadrons, but... is that true? Can you keep your ship alive, at medium range or no more from the squadrons, and with those squadrons in an engagement? This is the coordination problem I refer to; against a VSD1 or Glad1, as an example, do you really want to stick around within medium range to give squadron commands while it blasts you?
3. On the topic of things like the AFII, let's say we take an AFIIB, with expanded hangar bay, and 4xX-Wings: 129 points. So that's fine, but is that better than an AFII, enhanced armament, and a CR90A? The problem is that the squadrons are not free - you pay for them, one has to consider the other options for the points... the best of which might just be more ships! In the second case, you get just as much firepower, but in a tangle between those two groups, the AFIIB is spamming squadron commands in one case and the other can burn nav or engineering tokens while two ships obliterate the carrier (which isn't repairing). The second group will win that matchup most of the time.

On 2. You don't keep at medium range of the enemy, you keep at medium range of your squadron which can be up to distance 1 of the target.

Also, ideally a bomber should be used not to be the sole damage dealer. It should be used to burst damage in coordination with your ships to deal lethal damage more quickly. In other words, it doesn't matter if you close to within short range of a GSD if it ceases to exist. So any follow up squadron commands are used against a different ship. This is an ideal of course.

On a different but related note, I think people put too much focus on the full squadron command rather than the token. A banked squadron token can essentially be an extra die. The CF token only rerolls. This is important to keep in mind with regards to Tarken and GBI.

@Reinholt : I hope I didn't sound rude in my post man by the way, I'm pretty tired and English is not my native language, so I sometimes have a very dry tone to my posts in these circumstances But definitely didn't mean to be offensive !

Regarding your points :

1) Couldn't agree more with it and that was part of the point of my post. There is so much synergy between cards and between ships that looking at things in a statistical vacuum will never show the clearest picture ever

2) Regarding the "multiple turns" comments, yes it is highly possible. I frequently run an AFMK2 B with Gallant Haven, ECM, Adar Tallon, Expanded Hangars and Gunnery Team, and while it much prefers sticking circling the battlefield and pumping shots, sometimes you just have to dive in. I played on Sunday in a Contested Outpost scenario where I had to throw it in to prevent the ennemy from scoring points, and took 2 shots from a VSD2 front arc without much problem. Obviously, things are very different if we're playing with Neb Bs for example, but the multiple brace tokens and the 3 front shields can get you a turn or 2 in the front of a VSD without much problem. Also, like Tranenturm said it's highly possible to skirt just out of the edge of the massed firepower and keep your squadrons within close-medium range for activation.

Actually, with a Neb B, you might just want an attrition match with a VSD's front arc, because if you try to circle it, you're dead. I actually like Nebs with Engine Techs (I know, HERESY !) just for the ability to blast from Speed 1 to Speed "2+1" for a turn when they need to get away in a pinch.

3) I'm definitely not saying that squadrons > all ships. Especially in terms of damage output. What squadrons do is offer alternatives to straight up damage application (in terms of where and when you apply that damage). Where the squadron activation helps is when you need to apply the squadron's damage earlier than the squadron phase, or when your squadrons are not currently in a position to apply damage this turn.

In a list with no squadrons, you can't tie mine up. So they are free to park within the trajectory of a ship early on and let me not use squadron commands later on because they'll be able to shoot at the ship unhindered in the squadron phase That lets my ship use Concetrate Fire or even Engineering Commands instead.

Also, I rarely have to use the Engineering Command. What I've found in my local meta is that my small ships are either killed in one turn by multiple ships that gang up on them when they are at full shields, or they are killed in two turns by a single ship (Demolisher usually) with so much overkill that throwing that Engineering Command would not have changed anything. I look at Engineering Commands as a token to use in between fights, where I figure I'll have a turn where I won't take flakk nor will I be able to do damage due to range and in which case any offensive commands would be wasted.

The only exception to that is when I run a Victory I Dominator with Expanded Launchers, Point Defense Reroute, Gunnery Team and Wullf Yularen. That ship sails on his own and makes an effective area denial, spamming Engineering Commands and Tokens (thanks Wulff !) to restore 3 shields per turn that I can spend on extra blue dice (and trust me, 3 anti-fighter barrage dice that rerolls critical hits is pretty nasty )/

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Once again, lists are toolboxes, and there is no "better" toolbox. There are tools that aren't as sharp as they should when the upgrades are poorly selected, but each toolbox fits a specific way to play

Another thing to remember when you compare fighters to other upgrades that add dice to your attack: fighters attack one at a time, dealing their damage separate. You will deal more damage with a X-Wings red die over the course of 3 turns than with the extra red from enhanced armament (if you manage to stay with the target ship - easy against a VSD, almost impossible against a GSD); that's because the extra die from battery upgrade is added to your attack and then braced away or redirected to a less vulnerable zone. Unless absolutely necessary the hits from the X-Wing will not be braced or redirected.

And spamming squadron commands is not necessary when your fighters go up against a VSD. Park them at the front using squad command, range 1 away (remember, you may measure every distance any time, so use that to your advantage). If he goes Speed 1 you will get at least 3 attacks - the first when you command activate them to bring them into position, the second when he moves forward (not sure out of my head if speed 1 has same distance than range 1), he either overlap your squads and you put them at his front again, or he is not reaching the squads (barely) and you are just where you parked, attacking during the squad phase without using a squad command. Then the third, when he again moves at speed 1, he will not get out of range 1 with his aft, so your fighters can attack in the squad phase yet another time without spending squad command. That's optimal of course, but only 1 squad command is used here over 3 turns! Even if you can make that work for 2 turns only you will deal visible damage.

You also have to look at the potential interactions between special characters and upgrades. In a game I played I threw Luke backwards at a flanking Gladiator with a squadron command from Adar. So Luke got two bites at the Gladiator going through shields. Having Dodonna as my Admiral I made sure any crits were structural damage. On the turn I activated him I think I rolled a hit, then a hit/crit. The Glad flew forward so next turn Luke got another go from behind and rolled up a hit/crit again I think which killed the Glad! Yes I was a bit lucky but still Luke+Adar and a single squadron command pretty well solo'd that guy...

The threat of Luke alone is reason enough to bring at least 2-3 TiE's simply to engage him for a couple of turns. Luke bombing into the nose of a VSD1 on turn 2 and fishing for a Projector Failure is going to go badly for the Imp player!!

I also think that bringing squadrons is more of a long term investment. You need to plan to do most of your damage in later turns - once shields are down the agility of the bombers in particular to get to exposed arcs and land crits is pretty sweet. The trick is I think not over-investing in them, or expecting too much. Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to not take more squadrons than your combined ship squadron value?

Anyhow the game is still evolving and with future releases I'm sure we will see things get shaken up a bit. The 'Rogues' in particular will bring an interesting factor as I expect these will pose a tangible threat to ships and the best counter to them is likely to be space superiority squadrons.

I also think that bringing squadrons is more of a long term investment. You need to plan to do most of your damage in later turns - once shields are down the agility of the bombers in particular to get to exposed arcs and land crits is pretty sweet. The trick is I think not over-investing in them, or expecting too much. Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to not take more squadrons than your combined ship squadron value?

What makes me sad is everyone is blaming the list for the win.

Completely forgetting that it was probably a good list played very well by a good player.

Well done man, and grats on your win.

[...]

In conclusion, it's all a matter of playstyle. If you want to play mainly ship to ship combat, you're going to want to maximize the use of your Command Dials to synergize with the upgrades both passive and active.

Of course playing skill matters a great deal. However, I'm sure that at top tournaments people are fairly evenly matched. Also, I don't think that in the four months since the release of the game anyone has developed themselves into being the Gary Kasparov of Armada. That time will certainly come, but I really don't think we're there yet - and I don't mean any offense to the top players. They're clearly good.

I do think that list-building matters a greater deal now than it will in the future because our meta is still somewhat unknown and in great flux.

To the point of squadrons, that strikes me as a function of a meta-phase*. Right now, people who choose squadrons are investing enough into space superiority squadrons (TIE fighters, A-Wings, TIE Interceptors) and AA on their ships to make it worthwhile to essentially render of those all but useless by not taking any squadrons. In the next meta-phase people will respond to the rise of the non-squadron list by taking more bombers. Bringing more bombers will make anti-squadron space superiority relevant again. The key is to know your local meta and to be ahead of that game.

*by which I mean, something owing to people's collective choices rather than the basic availability of certain units. It's mental, not structural.

Another thing to remember when you compare fighters to other upgrades that add dice to your attack: fighters attack one at a time, dealing their damage separate. You will deal more damage with a X-Wings red die over the course of 3 turns than with the extra red from enhanced armament (if you manage to stay with the target ship - easy against a VSD, almost impossible against a GSD); that's because the extra die from battery upgrade is added to your attack and then braced away or redirected to a less vulnerable zone. Unless absolutely necessary the hits from the X-Wing will not be braced or redirected.

???

I've never had trouble keeping up with a GSD. It is roughly the same as the AF and the Neb B. Certainly CR90s have no problem running circles around it.

I can see how this would be trouble for a VSD, but for everything else out, you are on equal footing, if not better.

I meant staying in range with the fighters, it's impossible against a GSD unless you spam squadron commands, but vs a VSD your squadrons don't need command to fight it. Also I play 400 pt games only now, fighter lists work different here as you can't hope to bring down the "carrier fleet" within 3 or 4 turns, the fighters get their chance to shine.

I also can't speak for tournament players but in my normal games I run fighter less while my friends tend to run bomber heavy and I win some lose some but it always seems pretty balanced.

I do think that list-building matters a greater deal now than it will in the future because our meta is still somewhat unknown and in great flux.

To the point of squadrons, that strikes me as a function of a meta-phase.

If I were to go to a tournament in the next 2 weeks I would meta the VSD and 2 x GSD list, it will be copied for a while.

Well as predicted EVERY Gladiator around here is now sold out. Everything else still on the shelves. I hope someone takes 10 Ywings or something to Australian Nationals.

Well as predicted EVERY Gladiator around here is now sold out. Everything else still on the shelves. I hope someone takes 10 Ywings or something to Australian Nationals.

Let's see what occurs.