Hello all!

I was wondering if a combo idea would work involving the Qyburn card.

If you use Qyburn to steal a non-army card WITH SHADOWS from an opponent's dead pile, then use a card like Tywin lannister to win a challenge and then shadow the stolen card, will hat card now become "out of play" and not have to be given back to the opponent's dead pile, and later be brought back into play paying the reveal cost?

If that is confusing I am sorry. Any help is appreciated!

Yes, this is very funny trick:)

Card that are in Shadows are not considered to be "in play", nor "in hand". You can play it later, on return card to hand and play from hand:)

Well, hold on a second here. There's more to it than that.

Yes, it is true that if you return the character you "stole" with Qyburn to hand or to Shadows before the end of the phase, it will not be in play and will thus not be returned to the opponent's dead pile.

However , when a card leaves play (as it does when it goes into Shadows or is returned to a player's hand), all effects on the card end. In fact, the FAQ specifically says that any "take control" effect on a card ends when a card leaves play and is returned to its owner. So either the character reverts to its owner's control at the end of the phase when it returns to the dead pile, or it reverts earlier when it leaves play.

In short, you cannot use a combo like this to keep control of the character beyond the end of the phase.

It could be an interesting thing in Melee, though. During turn 1, I get a really powerful character out of your dead pile to beat up on the other guy, then before the end of the phase, I return him to Shadows so you can use it to beat up on the other guy next round.

So if I take control of Syrio Forel with Seductive Promises and I play its his response to put him back to the shadows in my shadows zone (as said in the shadows rulesheet), do I have to give it to my adversary, because is a card he owns and I loose my control of it?

Masi said:

Yes. That is correct. If you use Seductive Promise on Syrio, then use his ability to put him into Shadows, you will lose control of him (since he leaves play) the same as if he had been killed, discarded, etc.

And note that this is not inconsistent with the Shadows rule sheet. The sheet simply says that when a character goes into Shadows, it goes to its controller's Shadow area. But it also says that cards "in Shadows" are not in play. When you combine that with the FAQ entry specifically stating that when a card leaves play, all "take control" effects are over, you will not control Syrio when he goes into Shadows. Therefore, putting him into his "controller's Shadow area" and reverting him back to his owner's control are one and the same thing; Syrio ends up in his owner's Shadow area - which is the same as his controller's Shadow area.

Why are people so determined to see exceptions to all the usual rules about cards leaving play when a card goes from "in play" to Shadows?

ktom said:

Because if who controls the card is useless about a card reentering in the shadows, it should say in the rulesheet that the card goes to the owner shadows zone, not the controller.

It´s easier to read a rule than to read a rule and relate it to another rule as it is the case. As written it seems that the controller keeps the control. change one just word, and it´s clearer, and nobody will ask it. (well, probably someone will...xD)

First of all, Seductive Promise doesn't work on Unique characters. You can steal Syrio with other effects, though.

And I think he's having the same problem as I. Shadow rules say:

If a card is moved into Shadows by a card effect , it should also be placed facedown in its controller’s Shadows area.

Syrio's Response is a card effect. If we follow these rules he would go into his controller's Shadow area. Yes, I know the FAQ's general out-of-play area rule says otherwise. For this reason I sent this question to Nate last Friday. I'm waiting for his answer.

eloooooooi said:

But that's what I'm saying; once he leaves play, there is no difference between his controller and his owner.

I have yet to hear a good argument (or any argument, really) why the Shadows rule sheet saying "controller" instead of "owner" would allow a "take control" effect to continue when a card leaves play to go into Shadows instead of the FAQ specified reversion taking place and the "owner" and "controller" being the same person by the time the card makes it to Shadows (and thus creating no conflict with the Shadows rule sheet).

So im confused now with Balon Greyjoy from Trials...

Kuba said:

Balon specifically says the card goes into Shadows under your control. This is not at odds with the FAQ entry, which starts with "unless otherwise stated." There is also a difference in that with Balon, the card starts out of play (discard pile) and ends out of play (Shadows) whereas the discussion above is about what happens when a card starts in play and ends out of play.

So, there is no conflict between Balon and the FAQ entry because the "take control" effect specifically says that it works on the card while it is in Shadows. However, if you were to take Syrio with Balon (and put him into Shadows under your control), bring him out of Shadows (also under your control), and then use Syrio's effect to put him back into Shadows, he would revert to his owner's control (the same as he would if he died, was discarded, returned to hand, etc.).

Well, I just received Nate's answer. ktom's right: the Shadows area is treated as any other out-of-play area. Cards that go back into shadows go to their OWNER's Shadow area.

ktom said:

First off, look at me finding an old thread. Second, with the card going into the shadows, if it is a card that is house specific, then the card has to stay in the shadows for ever correct? Obviously someone like Syrio is fine and dandy, but anything else couldn't be used.

nah House X only is just a deck building restriction, not a play restriction. Its like if you stole a house x only character they would stay in play, so you cna being house x only out of shadows if you have stolen it w/ balon.

House X Only is a deck construction limitation only. Which means you can't put a House Lannister Only character in your Stark deck , BUT if you take control of a House Lannister Only character, then that's fine.

Thanks, after I posted I thought about that. But thanks for the quick response. Back to stealing cards!